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Koineman
Guest
Does anyone know if the Catholic Church has an official position on this question?
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S
surritter
Guest
Right – and this is what Catholic theology calls “perfect contrition” vs. “imperfect contrition.” Either type is adequate for forgiveness.
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surritter
Guest
Yes – the official Catholic position is that it does not ever declare officially if any human soul is in hell.
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Koineman
Guest
Can you point me to the specific paragraph of the Catechism that affirms this?
K
Koineman
Guest
No, I meant about Judas in particular.
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johnnyjones
Guest
Judas is the Son Of Perdition. John 17:12 says that none will be lost but the Son Of Perdition. That says alot. “Perdition” from the Greek word a-poh-lia means eternal death. Thats as scary as it gets in relation to Judas. God have mercy on us all.
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surritter
Guest
Paragraph 1492 of the Catechism. But many other writings also expand on this idea.
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surritter
Guest
The Catholic Church can officially canonize saints, and declare them to be in heaven. There is no reverse canonization process for those in hell; that was my point. So we cannot know for sure if Judas is in hell.
JohnnyJones commented about Judas being the Son of Perdition, but that interpretation is not an official one of the Catholic Church.
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Koineman
Guest
"1492 Repentance (also called contrition) must be inspired by motives that arise from faith. If repentance arises from love of charity for God, it is called “perfect” contrition; if it is founded on other motives, it is called “imperfect.” "
This seems to imply that imperfect repentance is not real repentance as it doesn’t arise from faith, or at least that seems implied.
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surritter
Guest
I don’t think that’s true … you seem to be making an issue where there is none
The Catechism says that contrition is a synonym for repentence, and that there is both perfect repentence and imperfect repentence. Both will get you to heaven, since you have turned away from sin and toward God. And that’s the meaning of the word itself.
Sure, perfect repentence is the ideal, but you still gotta count imperfect repentence as repentence, right?
R
R_C
Guest
Any repentance is repentance. Theology speaks of habitual or sanctifying grace that divine gift that is permanent in the soul and, among other things, springs the desire to be free from sin which is why it is also called sanctifying. This grace can be lost by mortal sin.
On the other hand we speak of actual or auxiliant grace when the divine gift is given temporarily so that man is able to perform a supernatural action. A clear example is a sinner who has lost the sanctifying grace and would not be able on his own to perform the supernatural act of repentance; God grants Him an actual grace that moves him to repent, a grace that is able to move the will, for instance by exhorting the sinner to confess.
It is the very choice that is the spark of freedom that was given to us, the choice between light and darkness. To repent means to reject darkness and chose light. If the repentance is imperfect - as it probably almost always is in us poor sinners - then it is not motivated solely by love of charity for God but it may arise, for example, by sorrow for having hurt others or by fear of ending in the pains of hell.
But without God’s grace we would not be able to experience contrition. Indeed,
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hansard
Guest
A “coward’s way out”? Tell that to the families of those who, in the depths of depression, have committed suicide for reasons noone will ever understand. (I mean medical depression, which is a commonly diagnosed condition. You may have heard of it.)
It is extremely judgemental and contemptuous to refer to them as cowards. It must be comforting to know that you are in such control of your life and that mental illness will never cast its shadow on you or your family.
This is from the Catechism (2282): *Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide. *
This is from me: Don’t condemn others.
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johnnyjones
Guest
Many of the saints taught the eternal punishment of Judas. St. Ambrose, Bishop of Milan, also maintained that Judas suffered eternal punishment because he died without final repentance and forgiveness. St. Ambrose in his Concerning Repentance said: “For I suppose that even Judas might through the exceeding mercy of God not have been shut out from forgiveness, if he had expressed his sorrow not before the Jews but before Christ.” St. Thomas Aquinas in the Summa Theologica stated: “Thus; as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it likewise is part of that providence to permit some to fall away from that end; this is called reprobation” (1a, q. 23, art. 3). And in De Veritate St. Thomas said: “Now, in the case of Judas, the abuse of grace was the reason for his reprobation, since he was made reprobate because he died without grace” (vol. 1, q. 6, art. 2). St. Thomas certainly judged that “Judas was reprobated.” (“Reprobated” means rejected by God and beyond hope of salvation.)
Again, according to St Catherine of Siena, God the Father pointed out Judas’s eternal punishment when He explained to Catherine the meaning of the sin against the Holy Spirit. God said:
This is that sin which is never forgiven, now or ever: the refusal, the scorning, of my mercy. For this offends me more than all the other sins they have committed. So the despair of Judas displeased me more and was a greater insult to my Son than his betrayal had been. Also St. Thomas Moore taught these doctrines.
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AzrealGelert
Guest
This is from the Catechism (2282): *Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide. *
Ok…Could this not be related back directly to Judas? If so this would diminish his responsibility? imagine his anguish!
Interesting…
Ok…Could this not be related back directly to Judas? If so this would diminish his responsibility? imagine his anguish!
Interesting…
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johnnyjones
Guest
You can factor in the catechism to support a reprieve for Judas but a willful betrayal ( a grave action) causing the death of the divine savior of the world counteracts his ** later** mental capacity. And according to many of the saints (see previous post) this may have been the case.
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surritter
Guest
My point was that the Church does not officially teach that Judas is in hell. Agreed?
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johnnyjones
Guest
The issue it seems is left to supposition. Working with some of the great minds of the saints we can draw strong conclusions but as you say there is no “official” stamp of certainty from the church…to my knowledge.
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