Questions

[Rafaela]

Hi!

This may sound silly, but I got recently worried as to my marriage is valid. Me and my husband got married in the local Roman Catholic Church. He is a Syro-Malabar Catholic and I am Roman. We did not obtain any permission of either bishop though the rites are different. Is our marriage still valid as a sacrament?

Does somebody know what is with the thali? I was given one by my in-laws, I wear it in India and mainly for them. However, since we got married in Roman rite I am not really supposed to wear one, am I? My thali was never blessed by priest as its supposed to be and in that sense there was never tying of thali done as in Syro-malabar church is customary.

Any information of any of these issues is highly welcome.

 

[uxordepp]

From what little I’ve read, the Syro-Malabar Church is in full Communion with Rome. If that is the case, I strongly think your marriage is valid.

A can’t speak to the thali, but I suspect it would fall under the heading of a sacramental, like a wedding ring? If so, there shouldn’t be a problem with you having it.

I suggest you ask your priest. He may even be able to bless you thali.

 

[RyanBlack]

Speak with your pastor and with a canon lawyer. When and Eastern Catholic man and a Roman Catholic woman are married, canons require permission of the Eastern hierarch for the wedding to take place in the parish of the wife. Furthermore, if the marriage is to be valid, it must be witnessed and blessed by a priest. It is not as simple as “well, the particular Church of the husband is in full communion with Rome, so the marriage is valid.”

 

[william_shkpr]

Return the thali and ask for pearls.

 

[Biedrik]

While I’m no canon lawyer, to me it simply sounds like the marriage was valid, but illicit.

 

[RyanBlack]

While I’m no canon lawyer, to me it simply sounds like the marriage was valid, but illicit.

No, there is a real concern about validity, not merely licity. I’ve been through this. When an Eastern Catholic man and a Roman Catholic woman are married in the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern hierarch (or one to whom he has delegated the authority) must give permission for the marriage to be valid. Furthermore, if such a union is to be valid, the celebrant must be a priest, because in the Eastern catholic theology of marriage, the couple do not bestow the sacrament on each other. The nuptial blessing of the priest is a requirement for validity, not merely licity.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hi!

This may sound silly, but I got recently worried as to my marriage is valid. Me and my husband got married in the local Roman Catholic Church. He is a Syro-Malabar Catholic and I am Roman. We did not obtain any permission of either bishop though the rites are different. Is our marriage still valid as a sacrament?

Yes, it very much is. Many people of other Rites who has moved to places where they do not have access to their own Rite or even by choice has started attending a RC parish even though they have their own parish in the area, may get married in an RC parish without even knowing canonical requirements. Its will not invalidate the Sacrament.

 

[ciero]

Yes, it very much is. Many people of other Rites who has moved to places where they do not have access to their own Rite or even by choice has started attending a RC parish even though they have their own parish in the area, may get married in an RC parish without even knowing canonical requirements. Its will not invalidate the Sacrament.

Sorry Constantine, but without the proper permissions this marriage is most likely INVALID,see the post above by Ryan.

 

[Rafaela]

Thank you for your answers. This actually never before occured to me. I took it as a granted that since they are both part of the one Holy and Apostolic Church it must be valid. We do not have Syro-Malabar parishes here inGermany (Europe) that I know of, and my husband always attends to Roman Catholic parish for mass, confession and so forth. I will contact a Bishop I know regarding this.

Further question:
If marriage is supposed not to be valid, then does this mean that our child in the eyes of the church is illicit child? Does that not mean also that in such a case we living our married life like a married couple are actually living in sin?

Thank you for your answers.

 

[RyanBlack]

Thank you for your answers. This actually never before occured to me. I took it as a granted that since they are both part of the one Holy and Apostolic Church it must be valid. We do not have Syro-Malabar parishes here inGermany (Europe) that I know of, and my husband always attends to Roman Catholic parish for mass, confession and so forth. I will contact a Bishop I know regarding this.

Further question:
If marriage is supposed not to be valid, then does this mean that our child in the eyes of the church is illicit child? Does that not mean also that in such a case we living our married life like a married couple are actually living in sin?

Thank you for your answers.

If there is no Syro-Malabar hierarchy in Germany and Syro-Malabar Catholics are under the authority of the local Roman ordinary, then I believe your marriage is valid. However, if there is a Syro-Malabar hierarch for Germany or for all of Europe, then the marriage is not valid if the proper permissions were not obtained. But please don’t worry yourself about whether you and your husband have been living in sin or whether our child might be “illicit.” See your pastor.

 

[ciero]

If there is no Syro-Malabar hierarchy in Germany and Syro-Malabar Catholics are under the authority of the local Roman ordinary, then I believe your marriage is valid. However, if there is a Syro-Malabar hierarch for Germany or for all of Europe, then the marriage is not valid if the proper permissions were not obtained. But please don’t worry yourself about whether you and your husband have been living in sin or whether our child might be “illicit.” See your pastor.

I believe the permissions would still be needed. I could be wrong so I suggest you speak with a canon lawyer who specializes in inter church marriage.

 

[Rafaela]

Some of you mention illicit marriage (legally?). In Germany religious marriage is always an extra -we have been married in the civil ceremony as well. I am mainly concerned weather our marriage was valid as a sacrament.

I do not have much knowledge but my husband told me that in the part of Kerala he is from people inter marry often (RCC, Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankara) -without getting a permission from local church authority. He was baptized RCC, got his first communion in RCC, but after that this same church (which used to be Latin) became Syro-Malabar, and because of that we are all left scratching our heads here

.

 

[malphono]

I’m not a canon lawyer either (ugggh! perish the thought! – no way, no how! ) but I do have some familiarity with such things. In any case, my take on this situation is that there may be a problem with liceity (and it’s only a “may” … I really doubt it) but based on what was said by the OP, I cannot imagine any problem whatsoever with validity.

AFAIK, there is no Syro-Malabar episcopal jurisdiction in Germany (or even in Western Europe as a whole), so the business of “applying for permission” is rather a moot point. (Despite modern-day “instant communication” and such, it’s kind of silly to suggest that “permission” need be sought from a bishop in Kerala.) In the absence of a proper jurisdiction of its own for Germany, the Syro-Malabar faithful are under the jurisdiction of the local Latin Rite bishop. (That would also be true for any Syro-Malabar parishes that may be established in Germany.)

One has to assume that the groom’s pastor was aware at the time of the marriage that he was Syro-Malabar. If that assumption is correct (and to the OP: please advise if it is wrong), and assuming that all other things were correctly done, the marriage was entered into freely with the blessing of the Church. Ergo, I cannot see any question of validity. At worst, it would be a case of “ecclesia supplet” wherein the Church supplies what may have been lacking in legal details, precisely because the parties involved (including the bride & groom, and the priest) approached the matter freely and in good faith, with no intent to skirt a law or deceive anyone. And frankly, I don’t really see any issue of liceity either, for the same essential reasons.

All of that said, I think it would be wise to consult with the groom’s priest and also with the local bishop, if not with a canon lawyer. Better safe than sorry, and it’s always preferable to do such things in person (rather than in an internet forum).

Just my :twocents: even if it’s worth less than half that.

 

[angelic06]

Greetings, Rafaela!

It is possible for your marriage to be convalidated by the authority of the bishop (whichever bishop is responsible for pastoral care if you have no hierarch of your own church sui iuris—that is, you will become married without repeating your ceremony, if there was nothing else wrong (such as you really did not intend to marry when you attempted marriage) with the ceremony other than the requisite permissions. You have to ask your bishop specifically for this convalidation if a church tribunal rules that your marriage was not valid and you still wish to remain together. Your canon lawyer will advise you on this when you have your marriage investigated by the Church.

Also, as noted above, it is possible that the Holy See has already made instructions for your region regarding pastoral care of eastern Catholics and what to do when the Latin (Roman) church is the majority church in your region—if this is the case when you got married, you may not have anything to worry about. If not, then you will need to have your marriage investigated by the Church.

Inter-marriage among Catholics of other churches sui iuris is not a problem, since we all profess the same dogmas, provided we keep track of which church we really belong to. If we know how to conduct the marriage correctly according to the norm of canon law, no permission from the bishop is necessary. But if we run into such a case as yours, where a Latin woman marries an Eastern man in a Latin church (according to the Eastern code, a woman should marry in the parish of the groom elect), then this is where you need to get ecclesiastical permissions. As a point of note, if it is necessary for a person to be baptized or chrismated in a church other than his or her own sui iuris, the priest needs to notate the church which he or she is a member of by virtue of canon law, otherwise, later in life we run into problems with canon law, such as marriage.

 

[PbloPicasso]

Some of you mention illicit marriage (legally?). In Germany religious marriage is always an extra -we have been married in the civil ceremony as well. I am mainly concerned weather our marriage was valid as a sacrament.

I do not have much knowledge but my husband told me that in the part of Kerala he is from people inter marry often (RCC, Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankara) -without getting a permission from local church authority. He was baptized RCC, got his first communion in RCC, but after that this same church (which used to be Latin) became Syro-Malabar, and because of that we are all left scratching our heads here

.

Rafaela,
If your husband was baptized in the RCC and received first communion in RCC, then he is actually RCC, unless he went through the formal steps to move to the eastern rite you’ve mentioned. Also, I do believe the parish priest would have known that he would have to go through his bishop as well before the ceremony.

From what I’ve read so far it sounds like your married is valid and sacramental.

Clerics know these things. Ask them to make sure for your own sake. Records are actually checked to make sure that both of you are able to marry. Double check. And do check with your bishop friend to make you feel better on the matter. I firmly believe from what you’ve revealed that you are in fact sacramentally married.

 

[ciero]

Rafaela,
If your husband was baptized in the RCC and received first communion in RCC, then he is actually RCC, unless he went through the formal steps to move to the eastern rite you’ve mentioned. Also, I do believe the parish priest would have known that he would have to go through his bishop as well before the ceremony.

From what I’ve read so far it sounds like your married is valid and sacramental.

Clerics know these things. Ask them to make sure for your own sake. Records are actually checked to make sure that both of you are able to marry. Double check. And do check with your bishop friend to make you feel better on the matter. I firmly believe from what you’ve revealed that you are in fact sacramentally married.

One takes the Rite of their father…no mater what church they are baptized in.

 

[PbloPicasso]

One takes the Rite of their father…no mater what church they are baptized in.

Ah, that’s true. I forgot about that part.

But don’t the clerics check these things?

I wouldn’t fret too much though. It sounds like you tried and all you need to do is contact the correct authority on the matter.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Sorry Constantine, but without the proper permissions this marriage is most likely INVALID,see the post above by Ryan.

No way. At worst it is illicit, but not invalid. How can a valid Catholic priest in good standing with the Church ever give an invalid marriage? I mean, there’s many things that can invalidate a marriage, but getting married in another Rite is not one of them. The only thing that you cannot get outside your proper Rite is Ordination.

 

[RyanBlack]

No way. At worst it is illicit, but not invalid. How can a valid Catholic priest in good standing with the Church ever give an invalid marriage? I mean, there’s many things that can invalidate a marriage, but getting married in another Rite is not one of them. The only thing that you cannot get outside your proper Rite is Ordination.

Please stop disseminating incorrect information-you are just wrong about the matter. When an Eastern Catholic male males a Roman Catholic female in a Roman Catholic parish, permission of the Eastern hierarch is required for validity, not merely licity. This is canon law. I know what I’m talking about. I’ve been through it. I’m an Eastern Catholic male and my wedding took place in a Roman Catholic parish. Again, the permission of the Eastern hierarch (if there is an Eastern hierarchy in place) is required for validity, not merely licity.

In Rafaela’s particular case, I doubt that there is an issue of validity, since it appears that her husband is actually Roman Catholic (having been baptized Roman Catholic, not Syro-Malabar, but it is not the actual place of baptism that makes the determination, but the ritual Church of the father), and even if he is Syro-Malabar, there is no Syro-Malabar hierarchy in Europe, and he would be under the authority of the local Roman ordinary. But again, if he were Syro-Malabar and there were a Syro-Malabar hierarchy in place, it would have been necessary for the Syro-Malabar bishop (or a Syro-Malabar priest to whom the bishop had delegated authority) to give permission for him to be married in the Roman Catholic Church if the marriage were to be valid.

 

[ciero]

No way. At worst it is illicit, but not invalid. How can a valid Catholic priest in good standing with the Church ever give an invalid marriage? I mean, there’s many things that can invalidate a marriage, but getting married in another Rite is not one of them. The only thing that you cannot get outside your proper Rite is Ordination.

As someone who has dealt with quite a few inter church marriage issues from a canonical view, I am telling you that you are mistaken. One needs the proper dispensations or the marriage MAY be both invalid as well as illicit. Marriage and Ordination are the 2 sacraments one should have in their own Rite (unless you have the proper dispensations). I dealt with one case that went all the way to Rome for clarification and the Roman court ruled the marriage was both Invalid as well as Illicit, because no dispensation was requested. This marriage was between a Maronite and a Roman Catholic.

Once again I recommend contacting a canon lawyer who specializes in inter church marriages. Catholic Near East Welfare Association in NY could probably point you in the right direction.