Questions

[Robert_Heibel]

(Mark 9:38 – 40) “John said to Him, ‘Master, we saw a man who is not one of us casting out devils in your name; and because he was not one of us we tried to stop him’. But Jesus said, ‘you must not stop him: no one who works a miracle in my name is likely to speak evil of Me. Anyone who is not against us is for us.”

Does it make any difference if a person is a Catholic, Baptist, Christian Reformed, Church of God, etc.?

(Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces; I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

If the bible is God’s Word doesn’t it tell everyone what our Father’s will is?

(Matthew 5:43) “You have learnt how it was said: You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say this to you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you; in this way you will be sons of your Father in Heaven.”

Jesus came from the Father and the Word He gave us is from the Father. Can a Christian be doing God’s will when they are part of killing an enemy?

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

This makes it hard to justify owning anything doesn’t it?

(John 6:53 – 57) “I tell you most solemnly, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you will not have life in you. Anyone who does eat My flesh and drink my blood has eternal life, and I shall raise him up on the last day. For my blood is real drink, He who eats My flesh and drinks my blood lives in Me and I live in him.”

Do you believe when someone partakes of the Eucharist they are in fact eating Jesus body and drinking His blood?

(John 10:16) “And there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold, and these I have to lead as well. They too will listen to my voice, and there will be only one flock, and one shepherd.” (John 10:27) “The sheep that belong to me listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me.”

Have you heard His voice? If you haven’t heard His voice, how do you know if your one of His?

(1 John 3:3-9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin: anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray’ to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy’ to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.” (Hebrews 6:4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from Heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

How then can men who claim to be ministers of God, and commit some of the gravest sins, still be accepted as Christians, even as ministers?

Isn’t the Bible the Word of God? The Word says (1 Corinthians 14:34-35), (Timothy 2:11-15), (1 Peter 3:2-4), that woman is to remain quiet at meetings. Since they have no permission to speak, or teach. How then do churches allow a woman to be a minister, and or teach?

 

[deb1]

You seem to be asking to many questions in your post. Could you make more then one thread? You also have to be wary of taking verses out of context. The original biblical manuscripts were not written in chapters and marked verses. They were meant to be read as a whole, like a book.

 

[Elijon]

“How then can men who claim to be ministers of God, and commit some of the gravest sins, still be accepted as Christians, even as ministers?” -Robert Heibel

It is helpful to remember that even with continued transgression there is salvation. “All things are possible with God.”

Robert you have made some interesting points, but I agree with deb1 that each question deserves a thread of it’s own. Perhaps you will post your questions individually for the benefit of all members?

I see no issue of your scripture quotes being out of context. I would hope that if you do start individual threads for your comments, that you elaborate more on what it is your trying to say.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

deb1:

You seem to be asking to many questions in your post. Could you make more then one thread? You also have to be wary of taking verses out of context. The original biblical manuscripts were not written in chapters and marked verses. They were meant to be read as a whole, like a book.

I’m using my questions as a way to give a word. Jesus told me to give a word and this is just one way I’m doing what He told me to do.

You tell me that the Bible is to be read like a book. Who told you That? Why do you believe that?

I will share that Jesus once sat next to me and directed me to to many different Scriptures in all different parts of the Bible. Once He did this while, explaining to me with Scripture, that Christians are dead to sin. He also explained to me how that was possible.

I really don’t understand what a thread is or how to post or what the difference between them. Maybe someone could help me or given some time I should figure it out.

 

[deb1]

Robert Heibel:

I’m using my questions as a way to give a word. Jesus told me to give a word and this is just one way I’m doing what He told me to do.

You tell me that the Bible is to be read like a book. Who told you That? Why do you believe that?

I will share that Jesus once sat next to me and directed me to to many different Scriptures in all different parts of the Bible. Once He did this while, explaining to me with Scripture, that Christians are dead to sin. He also explained to me how that was possible.

I really don’t understand what a thread is or how to post or what the difference between them. Maybe someone could help me or given some time I should figure it out.

Starting a thread seems to be a problem that some newbies have. Never worry-Super Deb is here. Go to the forum that your question is most appropriate for. Apologetics for example. Click on that forum. There will be a list of different threads on different topics. At the top of that list on the upper left side is a button. The button says something like start a new thread. Click that on. Type in one question and then submit. You have already started a thread entitled questions, so it is the same process.

 

[Elijon]

Robert Heibel:

I will share that Jesus once sat next to me and directed me to to many different Scriptures in all different parts of the Bible. Once He did this while, explaining to me with Scripture, that Christians are dead to sin. He also explained to me how that was possible.

This is interesting to me. If you would, I’d like to know which verses He showed you?

 

[Robert_Heibel]

(Romans 6: 10 - 11) “When He died, He died, once for all, to sin, so His life now is life with God; and in that way, you too must consider yourselves to be dead to sin but alive for God in Jesus Christ.”

(Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”

(Romans 8: 5) “The unspiritual are interested only in what is unspiritual, but the spiritual are interested in spiritual things. It is death to limit oneself to what is unspiritual, life and peace can only come with concern for the spiritual.”

(Romans 8: 9 - 13) “Your interest, however are not in the unspiritual, but in the spiritual, since the Spirit of God has made His home in you. In fact, unless you possessed the Spirit of Christ you would not belong to Him. Though your body may be dead it is because of sin, but if Christ is in you then your spirit is life itself because you have been justified; and if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, then He who raised Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit living in you.”

So then, brothers, there is no necessity for us to obey our unspiritual selves or to live unspiritual lives. If you do live in that way, you are doomed to die; but if by the Spirit you put an end to the misdeeds of the body you will live.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

(1 John 5: 16) “If anybody sees his brother commit a sin that is not a deadly sin, he has only to pray, and God will give life to the simmer - not those who commit a deadly sin; for there is a sin that is death, and I will not say that you must pray about that. Every kind of wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin is deadly.

We know that anyone who has been begotten by God does not sin, because the begotten Son of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.”

 

[But_for_Grace]

there is someone besides God who likes to quote scripture as well, and that is Satan. We know that Satan can appear as an angel of light and is very convinving but is a liar and the father of all lies.

Verses taken out of context are dangerous. Let me show you.

Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ, rising again from the dead, dieth now no more. Death shall no more have dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died to sin, he died once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 So do you also reckon that you are dead to sin, but alive unto God, in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, so as to obey the lusts thereof. (DRB)

Here is your first passage with the surrounding verses, and you can see clearly that it is a matter of “working out our salvation with fear and trembling” as Paul puts it elsewhere.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God committeth not sin: for his seed abideth in him. And he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil. Whosoever is not just is not of God, or he that loveth not his brother.
1Jo 3:11 For this is the declaration which you have heard from the beginning, that you should love one another. (DRB)

This is another passage that changes (your second to last one) in that sinners are of the devil. Do not forget that this is the same letter where John says:

1Jo 2:3 And by this we know that we have known him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He who saith that he knoweth him and keepeth not his commandments is a liar: and the truth is not in him. (DRB)

and also:

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour: and as you have heard that Antichrist cometh, even now there are become many Antichrists: whereby we know that it is the last hour.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would no doubt have remained with us: but that they may be manifest, that they are not all of us. (DRB)

John’s concern is that people keep the faith, not hold on to some notion of salvation that does not include life change. Reading these passages out of context is not a valid method of approaching scripture just as it is not a valid way of approaching a conversation. For instance you said “Jesus told me”, “I really don’t understand”, “the Bible” which is all contained in your second post, but is taken out of context and hence can be misconstrued to gain a meaning other than that which was intended when you origionally wrote it. This is why taking verses out of context is dangerous because it misconstrues what God says.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

But for Grace:

there is someone besides God who likes to quote scripture as well, and that is Satan. We know that Satan can appear as an angel of light and is very convinving but is a liar and the father of all lies.

Verses taken out of context are dangerous. Let me show you.

Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ, rising again from the dead, dieth now no more. Death shall no more have dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died to sin, he died once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 So do you also reckon that you are dead to sin, but alive unto God, in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, so as to obey the lusts thereof. (DRB)

Here is your first passage with the surrounding verses, and you can see clearly that it is a matter of “working out our salvation with fear and trembling” as Paul puts it elsewhere.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God committeth not sin: for his seed abideth in him. And he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil. Whosoever is not just is not of God, or he that loveth not his brother.
1Jo 3:11 For this is the declaration which you have heard from the beginning, that you should love one another. (DRB)

This is another passage that changes (your second to last one) in that sinners are of the devil. Do not forget that this is the same letter where John says:

1Jo 2:3 And by this we know that we have known him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He who saith that he knoweth him and keepeth not his commandments is a liar: and the truth is not in him. (DRB)

and also:

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour: and as you have heard that Antichrist cometh, even now there are become many Antichrists: whereby we know that it is the last hour.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would no doubt have remained with us: but that they may be manifest, that they are not all of us. (DRB)

John’s concern is that people keep the faith, not hold on to some notion of salvation that does not include life change. Reading these passages out of context is not a valid method of approaching scripture just as it is not a valid way of approaching a conversation. For instance you said “Jesus told me”, “I really don’t understand”, “the Bible” which is all contained in your second post, but is taken out of context and hence can be misconstrued to gain a meaning other than that which was intended when you origionally wrote it. This is why taking verses out of context is dangerous because it misconstrues what God says.

So do you want me to read all of first John to you and then explain it? When Jesus sat next to me and explained that Christians are dead to sin He used Scriptures from many different places in the Bible. Isn’t it strange Jesus uses Scriptures in a way that you say is dangerous? I’ll will witness to you that Jesus has been teaching me for over thirty years, and so you can understand how He has been doing so, I will try to explain. Jesus has talked to me audibly, spoken to me (the only way I know how to describe) is from His mind to my mind. He just puts the words in my mind, Tongues and the interpretation of them, Gift of knowledge, Gift of discernment, Healings. Jesus told me to pray to be open and sensitive to His touch and to His Word all day long.

Yes, Satan does use Scripture, but he doesn’t teach anyone to love God, by obeying God’s Word. I know that any time someone reads Scripture they need to ask the Holy Spirit to explain it to them. I know it is Jesus who has been teaching me, He is my Lord and my God. I have given Him my life. The Holy Spirit once told me I would talk to Catholics about a personal relationship with Jesus and to non Catholics that Communion (Eucharist) was really the Body and Blood of Jesus, and this is what I have been doing for over thirty years.

 

[Elijon]

But for Grace:

John’s concern is that people keep the faith, not hold on to some notion of salvation that does not include life change. Reading these passages out of context is not a valid method of approaching scripture just as it is not a valid way of approaching a conversation. For instance you said “Jesus told me”, “I really don’t understand”, “the Bible” which is all contained in your second post, but is taken out of context and hence can be misconstrued to gain a meaning other than that which was intended when you origionally wrote it. This is why taking verses out of context is dangerous because it misconstrues what God says.

Some how I think that this response was a little unfair. If your suspicious of Robert’s experience ok, but I find that he has answered my question concerning what I asked him. I noticed that he did not give any commentary on the these verses, and if you notice they fall perfectly in order as the Scripture is canonically compiled. The thing that makes me suspicious is anyone with a overly critical spirit. I believe in Jesus and trust Him to teach me the truth concerning Himself.
Robert Heibel:

The Holy Spirit once told me I would talk to Catholics about a personal relationship with Jesus and to non Catholics that Communion (Eucharist) was really the Body and Blood of Jesus, and this is what I have been doing for over thirty years.

Robert, have you written down your full interaction with the Holy Spirit concerning this? I noticed that I’ve not see anything distictly anti-Catholic about what your saying. Perhaps your experience might help me to join the Catholic Church.

 

[deb1]

Robert Heibel:

You tell me that the Bible is to be read like a book. Who told you That? Why do you believe that?
.

Sorry that it took me so long to post this. I am having terrible back pain and have to stay off the computer.

The bible was broken up into chapters in the 1200’s. Two people, Cardinal Hugo de St. Caro and Stephen Langton, are credited with breaking the bibles into chapters. The Jewish people did have the Old Testament broken up into segments that aided their reading outloud in the synagogue. They also had smaller segments that corresponded to our verses. Here is a link to a very short article on the subject.

bible.org/qa.asp?topic_id=5&qa_id=411

It makes sense. It would have seemed odd, if Paul had numbered every single sentence in his letters.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Elijon:

Some how I think that this response was a little unfair. If your suspicious of Robert’s experience ok, but I find that he has answered my question concerning what I asked him. I noticed that he did not give any commentary on the these verses, and if you notice they fall perfectly in order as the Scripture is canonically compiled. The thing that makes me suspicious is anyone with a overly critical spirit. I believe in Jesus and trust Him to teach me the truth concerning Himself.

Robert, have you written down your full interaction with the Holy Spirit concerning this? I noticed that I’ve not see anything distictly anti-Catholic about what your saying. Perhaps your experience might help me to join the Catholic Church.

Yes I have written an account of my walk with Jesus, but because my education was in business, and electrical engineering, my writting skills need much help. My daughter is editing the account and for whatever reason hasn’t finished it yet. I will send you a version with all my mistakes in it, if you e-mail me.

 

[But_for_Grace]

Elijon - perhaps you are right and my reaction was hastely spoken, however, I do tremble at the damage that satan has already done to the church causing so much division within it. The following links should help you understand my concern:

catholicism.org/pages/aubrey.htm

and

catholicism.org/pages/devilsdoc.htm

Having had a similiar experience, I spent many years discerning it, comparing it with scripture to see if it is consistent, comparing it with church teaching to see if it is consistent, discussing it with my (informal) spiritual director, passing it on to others who he thought were gifted with discernment.

Hasty acceptance is a dangerous thing, but so is instaneous disregard as well. I apologize for any rashness and only wished to highlight the possible misunderstand that some people come to when scripture is presented to them out of context.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

But for Grace:

Elijon - perhaps you are right and my reaction was hastely spoken, however, I do tremble at the damage that satan has already done to the church causing so much division within it. The following links should help you understand my concern:

catholicism.org/pages/aubrey.htm

and

catholicism.org/pages/devilsdoc.htm

Having had a similiar experience, I spent many years discerning it, comparing it with scripture to see if it is consistent, comparing it with church teaching to see if it is consistent, discussing it with my (informal) spiritual director, passing it on to others who he thought were gifted with discernment.

Hasty acceptance is a dangerous thing, but so is instaneous disregard as well. I apologize for any rashness and only wished to highlight the possible misunderstand that some people come to when scripture is presented to them out of context.

Please forgive me for not making myself clear. I am not trying to start a new Church or am I coming against any of the Christian Churches.

What I am trying to do is have the people of the Churches take a look at the Word of God and then go God and have Jesus explain to them what is right or wrong with their church’s teachings.

Jesus told me to give a word, and He did not tell me or do I want to start a church. I am not an apostle, pastor, or teacher. God didn’t give me the gifts to be any of those.

Some of what Jesus has taught me and told me to share with people is: no matter who tells us something about God, be it a bishop, priest, or anyone, we are to ask Jesus if it is right or wrong. This disturbs people, because most people don’t believe that if they ask Jesus personally about something that He will answer them straight out. I don’t believe He uses the Bible, church, or some person, unless He makes it clear to us that He is using that means to communicate personally. A person may or may not hear an audible voice, but they will soon know it is Jesus communicating with them directly. Jesus has never taught me anything that isn’t in the Bible. I use the Bible plus the gifts of the Holy Spirit to confirm whom it is I am hearing.

One additional note from my experience as long as a person is saying no to the idea of Jesus speaking to them personally, most of the time, Jesus respects that decision, and does only what the person is willing to believe.

Twenty-seven years ago Jesus told me a time was coming soon when man would suffer more than he has ever suffered. I was to give a word and leave. Out of that word a community would grow. He wants a place of safety for His people.

Yours in Christ,
Robert

 

[Pug]

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

This makes it hard to justify owning anything doesn’t it?

Yes and no. By itself, not knowing what it means, then a person must confront the message of the verse. A likely path of confrontation would be to wonder if it means to sell everything.

However, people do own things in the bible and use them validly, so it must be understood how it relates to those verses. For example, although once the disciples went out without shoes and bags, later on they are sent and told to go with bags and swords, even to buy a sword (and hence own one). See luke 22:36 and 9:3.

For a simple example, I believe it is just to own a bible. But, I would give it away to someone in some instances. Yet, overall, I don’t think we “own” stuff. We are just in charge of it for awhile, to put to good use for our task in life. However, in common parlance we own things.

 

[Elijon]

But for Grace:

Elijon - perhaps you are right and my reaction was hastely spoken, however, I do tremble at the damage that satan has already done to the church causing so much division within it. The following links should help you understand my concern:

catholicism.org/pages/aubrey.htm

and

catholicism.org/pages/devilsdoc.htm

Having had a similiar experience, I spent many years discerning it, comparing it with scripture to see if it is consistent, comparing it with church teaching to see if it is consistent, discussing it with my (informal) spiritual director, passing it on to others who he thought were gifted with discernment.

Hasty acceptance is a dangerous thing, but so is instaneous disregard as well. I apologize for any rashness and only wished to highlight the possible misunderstand that some people come to when scripture is presented to them out of context.

I understand your position fully. I share your concern. I also see that the Catholic Church has been treated unfairly. I try to remain ever vigilant about my belief in Christ. My only wish is to not be caught napping when the Lord returns.

 

[Elijon]

Robert Heibel:

Yes I have written an account of my walk with Jesus, but because my education was in business, and electrical engineering, my writting skills need much help. My daughter is editing the account and for whatever reason hasn’t finished it yet. I will send you a version with all my mistakes in it, if you e-mail me.

I would be honored to look at your manuscript. I am reluctant to post my e-mail address though. If you have made yours available in your profile I’ll pick it up and mail you. Forgive me if it takes a long time to reply to you, I have limited access to the internet right now. Friday maybe the soonest I can post again.
.

 

[Elijon]

Robert Heibel:

He wants a place of safety for His people.

I sense that there is more behind this statement than you have related. Perhaps with e-mail you might show me what you mean by this?

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Elijon:

I sense that there is more behind this statement than you have related. Perhaps with e-mail you might show me what you mean by this?

I was not able to access your e-mail address, but if you e-mail me I’ll try to answer your question.