Questions

[royalt]

I am a Catholic. I was raised Catholic. Went to Catholic schools and never once questioned my faith. Just always had the idea of believing in Christ, do the right thing, be compassionate and honest with people and things will work out. However as I have gotten older and life has gotten tougher I want to lean on my faith more. I have more and more conversations with people of all faiths and those who do not have a strong belief in their faith and some of the conversations have lead me to have not doubt but questions that I can not answer. I have one particular friend who was raised Baptist and as a result hated his religion because all he heard was fire and brimstone and if you don’t go to church the devil will get you sort of thing. So he has started studying universal salvation. For those of you who don’t know it means everyone will get to heaven eventually. Their belief system is based on some interpretation of verse but also some philosophical answers to questions we all have. So I would like to share these with you and hear your opinions on them. They are individual questions but they also tie in together.

1st one is predestination vs free will which also involves the absolution of God vs relativism.So let me try to explain. If we have free will and some choose to deny or turn away completely from God they will be destined for an Eternity in Hell. The reason that Universal salvation denies this doctrine is because they believe that Gods works in the absolute not in the relative. So humans would consider the battle of good(God) vs evil(Devil) to be relative. Meaning if God gets the vast majority of souls to choose his way he wins. But what if the devil only gets one soul ? If only one soul, say Hitler does not repent at end times and sees God’s true glory then the Devil actually has his victory. Some will say well God uses some people as vessels for his plan, predestination, and these people will not suffer an eternity be wiped out completely. Universal Salvation says how can God create vessels to do evil. God is not capable of creating evil.

Look forward to your responses and please feel free to ask any questions if I did not explain well enough.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Catholic teaching does the best job of not being presumptuous about God’s judgements. Catholics are taught not to judge the salvation of any soul. IMHO, it’s just as dangerous to tell everyone they are going to be saved as it is to tell people they are damned.

Taking a view that God saves every soul, denies free will’s existence. Some people choose death and destruction even when they know it’s wrong. Denial of the ability of a person to turn away from God and toward evil is denial of truth; in favor of some infinite scale of excuses where people are not responsible for their choices. God’s mercy is infinite for those who choose it.

 

[royalt]

Thank you for the reply. However I am not arguing against free will but that if one person does not choose the mercy of God, essentially they choose the side of the Devil. Which in turn means God lost one of his souls that was created in his image. US(universal salvation) argument is that God works in the absolute not in the relative. So how can he allow one soul to choose the side of the Devil, and if he can then one soul lost is a loss for God ?

 

[jmcrae]

Thank you for the reply. However I am not arguing against free will but that if one person does not choose the mercy of God, essentially they choose the side of the Devil. Which in turn means God lost one of his souls that was created in his image. US(universal salvation) argument is that God works in the absolute not in the relative. So how can he allow one soul to choose the side of the Devil, and if he can then one soul lost is a loss for God ?

We could also say that one human soul saved is God’s victory, for the same reasons.

Evil is not a “thing”; it is a lack of good. Insofar as something lacks good, it is evil. God didn’t create the evil; rather, the good that He created was not chosen.

 

[thephilosopher6]

I am a Catholic. I was raised Catholic. Went to Catholic schools and never once questioned my faith. Just always had the idea of believing in Christ, do the right thing, be compassionate and honest with people and things will work out. However as I have gotten older and life has gotten tougher I want to lean on my faith more. I have more and more conversations with people of all faiths and those who do not have a strong belief in their faith and some of the conversations have lead me to have not doubt but questions that I can not answer. I have one particular friend who was raised Baptist and as a result hated his religion because all he heard was fire and brimstone and if you don’t go to church the devil will get you sort of thing. So he has started studying universal salvation. For those of you who don’t know it means everyone will get to heaven eventually. Their belief system is based on some interpretation of verse but also some philosophical answers to questions we all have. So I would like to share these with you and hear your opinions on them. They are individual questions but they also tie in together.

1st one is predestination vs free will which also involves the absolution of God vs relativism.So let me try to explain. If we have free will and some choose to deny or turn away completely from God they will be destined for an Eternity in Hell. The reason that Universal salvation denies this doctrine is because they believe that Gods works in the absolute not in the relative. So humans would consider the battle of good(God) vs evil(Devil) to be relative. Meaning if God gets the vast majority of souls to choose his way he wins. But what if the devil only gets one soul ? If only one soul, say Hitler does not repent at end times and sees God’s true glory then the Devil actually has his victory. Some will say well God uses some people as vessels for his plan, predestination, and these people will not suffer an eternity be wiped out completely. Universal Salvation says how can God create vessels to do evil. God is not capable of creating evil.

Look forward to your responses and please feel free to ask any questions if I did not explain well enough.

Universalism is a heresy, and lately is seems to be making a comeback among Evangelicals.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

1st one is predestination vs free will which also involves the absolution of God vs relativism.So let me try to explain. If we have free will and some choose to deny or turn away completely from God they will be destined for an Eternity in Hell. The reason that Universal salvation denies this doctrine is because they believe that Gods works in the absolute not in the relative.

What exactly does this mean, and what evidence is there that it is true?

So humans would consider the battle of good(God) vs evil(Devil) to be relative. Meaning if God gets the vast majority of souls to choose his way he wins. But what if the devil only gets one soul ? If only one soul, say Hitler does not repent at end times and sees God’s true glory then the Devil actually has his victory.

I have a couple issues with this.

I’m not sure you could say that God lost even if every single human went to hell. God created us with the will to choose, and guides us and helps us enough so that we can make the correct choice, but if we are created as entities to exercise our choice, then how is it a failure for God if we do so in the wrong way? Certainly He desires us to make the right choice, but if there is no choice at all it’s hardly a victory for Him when we do what we must do, and if we are the origins of our own choices, it’s hardly a failure for him when we don’t.

Certainly the Devil may consider it a victory for him each time a human goes to hell, but the Devil isn’t exactly right in the head, so his opinions on the matter aren’t really a good measure for things. It’s important to remember that while we might say that an evil act is a victory for the Devil because it aligns with his goals, such things don’t actually cause anything good to happen for/to the devil. He takes a perverse delight in it, but all the evil he does makes things worse for him.

It’s worth examining what you mean by a defeat or victory for God or the Devil more closely. While the devil tries to do evil, and while God helps us to resist both the Devil and the more mundane evils we cook up ourselves without any demonic help (and so in that sense, there is certainly a battle between good and evil), it’s hardly the case that God and the devil are playing a game of divine checkers where whoever captures the most at the end wins.

Some will say well God uses some people as vessels for his plan, predestination, and these people will not suffer an eternity be wiped out completely. Universal Salvation says how can God create vessels to do evil. God is not capable of creating evil.

Here I just agree with you. While God may give people purposes, or arrange things so that some people end up fulfilling purposes, God does not create evil or move things towards evil. I also agree that annihilation makes no sense.

 

[Tomdstone]

Is it true that there is free will in heaven, but generally, once in heaven, people do not commit sin? Both Hell and Purgatory seem like horrible places with a huge amount of suffering by eternal fire, so some people say that they cannot reconcile an all merciful and all loving God with that concept. Religions are not united in teaching who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.

 

[MT1926]

I am a Catholic. I was raised Catholic. Went to Catholic schools and never once questioned my faith. Just always had the idea of believing in Christ, do the right thing, be compassionate and honest with people and things will work out. However as I have gotten older and life has gotten tougher I want to lean on my faith more.

You have gotten some good answers so far so I am just going to try and point out a few things. You are on the right track here. Just remember what Jesus tells us…
Matthew 18
True Greatness
18 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them, 3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever humbles himself like this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

The older I get the easier it is to see how much this applies to us today. More and more people have become self centered and have great difficulties when it comes to authority. Jesus new this of all generations. That is why he often refers to us as sheep. If you ever get a chance, spend some time watching sheep. I actually raise them and contrary to popular belief Jesus does not refer to us as sheep because sheep can be dumb as a box of rocks. He calls us sheep because just like sheep the only thing on our minds is what is best for us and they are always worried that their neighbor has better grain than they have, even though it was all poured out of the same bag. It’s actually quite humorous to watch, you have the select few sheep that stay in one spot and chow down as much grain as they can, but the majority of them keep moving around the trough pushing each other out of the way looking for the tastiest morsels. I see this quite often with faith also. How many people do you know are constantly moving around from church to church looking for the best fit for them and what makes them feel good and what fits best into their way of life. Last time I checked I thought we were suppose to go to church to worship God not to have him entertain us.

I have more and more conversations with people of all faiths and those who do not have a strong belief in their faith and some of the conversations have lead me to have not doubt but questions that I can not answer.

It’s good to have conversations with people of other faiths, but make sure you are pretty solid in the Catholic faith as well so you have something to bring to the table. I can tell you have a good head on your shoulders because you brought your questions here.

1st one is predestination vs free will which also involves the absolution of God vs relativism.So let me try to explain. If we have free will and some choose to deny or turn away completely from God they will be destined for an Eternity in Hell. The reason that Universal salvation denies this doctrine is because they believe that Gods works in the absolute not in the relative. So humans would consider the battle of good(God) vs evil(Devil) to be relative. Meaning if God gets the vast majority of souls to choose his way he wins. But what if the devil only gets one soul ? If only one soul, say Hitler does not repent at end times and sees God’s true glory then the Devil actually has his victory. Some will say well God uses some people as vessels for his plan, predestination, and these people will not suffer an eternity be wiped out completely. Universal Salvation says how can God create vessels to do evil. God is not capable of creating evil.

I really don’t have a great comeback for this. All I can say is WHAT? There is no way any of this is Biblical so it is pretty much one SHEEP’S opinion, trying to conform God to them instead of conforming themselves to God. We live in a lazy lazy world, but this one really takes the cake. I thought the idea of once saved always saved was pretty far fetched but the whole premise of this idea is as easy as it gets. If only one soul is lost God loses so God will change the rules and we will all be saved is a wish come true it seems. The thing your friend is failing to understand is God can’t lose, once he gave us the free will he gave us the choice to win or lose. If you give your kid a dollar, whether he spends it on bus fare to get home in time for diner or spends it on the instant gratification of a candy bar, how can you personally lose, since you already freely gave it to him. The kid is the one stuck walking home and going to bed without diner not you. I know not the greatest example but I think you can kinda see where I am coming from.

Keep those questions coming, there is a lot of people here to help you on your journey

 

[Techno2000]

I am a Catholic. I was raised Catholic. Went to Catholic schools and never once questioned my faith. Just always had the idea of believing in Christ, do the right thing, be compassionate and honest with people and things will work out. However as I have gotten older and life has gotten tougher I want to lean on my faith more. I have more and more conversations with people of all faiths and those who do not have a strong belief in their faith and some of the conversations have lead me to have not doubt but questions that I can not answer. I have one particular friend who was raised Baptist and as a result hated his religion because all he heard was fire and brimstone and if you don’t go to church the devil will get you sort of thing. So he has started studying universal salvation. For those of you who don’t know it means everyone will get to heaven eventually. Their belief system is based on some interpretation of verse but also some philosophical answers to questions we all have. So I would like to share these with you and hear your opinions on them. They are individual questions but they also tie in together.

1st one is predestination vs free will which also involves the absolution of God vs relativism.So let me try to explain. If we have free will and some choose to deny or turn away completely from God they will be destined for an Eternity in Hell. The reason that Universal salvation denies this doctrine is because they believe that Gods works in the absolute not in the relative. So humans would consider the battle of good(God) vs evil(Devil) to be relative. Meaning if God gets the vast majority of souls to choose his way he wins. But what if the devil only gets one soul ? If only one soul, say Hitler does not repent at end times and sees God’s true glory then the Devil actually has his victory. Some will say well God uses some people as vessels for his plan, predestination, and these people will not suffer an eternity be wiped out completely. Universal Salvation says how can God create vessels to do evil. God is not capable of creating evil.

Look forward to your responses and please feel free to ask any questions if I did not explain well enough.

olrl.org/doctrine/cry.shtml

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Thank you for the reply. However I am not arguing against free will but that if one person does not choose the mercy of God, essentially they choose the side of the Devil. Which in turn means God lost one of his souls that was created in his image. US(universal salvation) argument is that God works in the absolute not in the relative. So how can he allow one soul to choose the side of the Devil, and if he can then one soul lost is a loss for God ?

Are you referring to absolute and relative time? Well, we don’t operate in absolute, besides,God owns all creation even the devil. God can’t lose anything to the devil. People make their choice. God allows it.

 

[jcrichton]

I am a Catholic. I was raised Catholic. Went to Catholic schools and never once questioned my faith. Just always had the idea of believing in Christ, do the right thing, be compassionate and honest with people and things will work out. However as I have gotten older and life has gotten tougher I want to lean on my faith more. I have more and more conversations with people of all faiths and those who do not have a strong belief in their faith and some of the conversations have lead me to have not doubt but questions that I can not answer. I have one particular friend who was raised Baptist and as a result hated his religion because all he heard was fire and brimstone and if you don’t go to church the devil will get you sort of thing. So he has started studying universal salvation. For those of you who don’t know it means everyone will get to heaven eventually. Their belief system is based on some interpretation of verse but also some philosophical answers to questions we all have. So I would like to share these with you and hear your opinions on them. They are individual questions but they also tie in together.

1st one is predestination vs free will which also involves the absolution of God vs relativism.So let me try to explain. If we have free will and some choose to deny or turn away completely from God they will be destined for an Eternity in Hell. The reason that Universal salvation denies this doctrine is because they believe that Gods works in the absolute not in the relative. So humans would consider the battle of good(God) vs evil(Devil) to be relative. Meaning if God gets the vast majority of souls to choose his way he wins. But what if the devil only gets one soul ? If only one soul, say Hitler does not repent at end times and sees God’s true glory then the Devil actually has his victory. Some will say well God uses some people as vessels for his plan, predestination, and these people will not suffer an eternity be wiped out completely. Universal Salvation says how can God create vessels to do evil. God is not capable of creating evil.

Look forward to your responses and please feel free to ask any questions if I did not explain well enough.

Hi!
…basically you are describing hollowood’s spiritualism: evil vs. good; must have evil to have good; takes evil to fight evil; good is not so good so God uses evil to bring about His Salvation; all dogs go to heaven…

It all sounds good… but that’s not what God states:

4 As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted in his sight in charity. 5 Who** hath predestinated us unto the adoption of children through Jesus Christ** unto himself: according to the purpose of his will: (Ephesians 1:4-5)

Clearly, those who want to believe that all are saved (predestined by God to be eternally saved) can read this or any similar Scriptural passage and imagine… ‘yay, I’m saved!’

Yet, that’s not what God is saying. God has predestined all man to Salvation in Christ… but here’s the rub:

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. 13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but** of God**. (St. John 1:11-13)

19 And this is the judgment: because** the light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil**. 20 For every one that doth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, that his works may not be reproved. 21 But he that doth truth, cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, because they are done in God. (St. John 3:19-21)

…and as far as God’s Victory:

7 I say to you, that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance. (St. Luke 15:7)

God is not concerned with Satan–Hid joy/victory is in our willingness to Believe and Fallow Him.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Thank you for the reply. However I am not arguing against free will but that if one person does not choose the mercy of God, essentially they choose the side of the Devil. Which in turn means God lost one of his souls that was created in his image. US(universal salvation) argument is that God works in the absolute not in the relative. So how can he allow one soul to choose the side of the Devil, and if he can then one soul lost is a loss for God ?

…yeah… not!
That’s hollowood’s version of spirituality; you will find it in most scifi movies/shows where the battle for souls is introduced (the bad God that allows even one soul to be lost or the God that is bad because He forces people to Believe or else they will end up in eternal damnation…).
God is complete. He is a Spiritual Being. We are finite and incomplete because we need of His essence to be enhanced, if you will, to a higher plane of existence.

Satan was created by God. Since Satan is a spiritual being the proposed argument would then make God less of God because Satan chose himself over God’s Dominion and Authority and has incurred eternal separation from God.

The best I can explain it to you is through the visual of a starfish: portion/limb can be removed without the loss of the original subject; God, being a Spiritual Being, can Create a being, infuse it with His Spirit, and not be lessened by the Gift.

As a sentient Being, the loss of a human life is palpable to God–the loss of His portion of Spirit in a human being that rejects God and ends up in damnation must also be felt… does that means that this eternal separation from God would somehow cause a loss to God’s Being? I truly don’t know; but I doubt it since God is Complete even after Creation.

As for hollowood’s vision of battle for the souls… it only exists in scifi. The only way that man would completely give himself to God, without the risk of losing himself to the Devil, would be if God controlled man’s will; this would be contrary to Creation: “Let us make man in our Image and Likeness!” Free will cannot be free if God controls the choices we make!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Is it true that there is free will in heaven, but generally, once in heaven, people do not commit sin? Both Hell and Purgatory seem like horrible places with a huge amount of suffering by eternal fire, so some people say that they cannot reconcile an all merciful and all loving God with that concept. Religions are not united in teaching who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.

Hi!
Lucifer was Created with free will. He used it to take over the world (Heaven); he and those who bought into his attempt to overthrow God were cast out and are set to end up in Hell. I believe that would be the fate of anyone else in Heaven who would exercise free will to sin–they would summarily be cast into damnation.

Hell is the fire that never ends and where the worm never dies–yeah an awful vision, hopefully few of us will choose to end up there.

Purgatory is not found in Hell but on the above of the dead–though there’s suffering there, the suffering is different from Hell’s because here the souls are suffering because they are separated from God; yet, there’s that purging that will eventually cleanse then and allow them into the Presence of God–Hell has not a prayer!

I suspect that those who claim to not accept Hell and Purgatory under the guise of “God’s Love/Mercy” are simply seeking a way to have their cake and eat it too (do as they please while calling on God to administer His Love and Mercy). I liken them to someone who would sell you his/her car, spend your money, then with an extra key take back the car–when you complain, they would simply state that the car is part of them and that you must share it. Not quite the agreement that you had when the money and car were exchanged; but, they figure, ‘hey, why not?’

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gorgias]

if God gets the vast majority of souls to choose his way he wins. But what if the devil only gets one soul ? If only one soul, say Hitler does not repent at end times and sees God’s true glory then the Devil actually has his victory.

This doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. Here’s the thing: if there’s ‘universal salvation’ for all humans, then there’s still a hell for Satan and his fellow fallen angels. In other words, if your assertion holds up, then “one condemned human” isn’t the standard for ‘failure’ – it’s “one condemned creation”, and we know that Satan was created by God and is already condemned.

So, ‘universal salvation’ doesn’t solve any problems whatsoever – rather, it ends up making the assertion that God already lost, even before He created the first human.

 

[Vico]

I am a Catholic. I was raised Catholic. Went to Catholic schools and never once questioned my faith. Just always had the idea of believing in Christ, do the right thing, be compassionate and honest with people and things will work out. However as I have gotten older and life has gotten tougher I want to lean on my faith more. I have more and more conversations with people of all faiths and those who do not have a strong belief in their faith and some of the conversations have lead me to have not doubt but questions that I can not answer. I have one particular friend who was raised Baptist and as a result hated his religion because all he heard was fire and brimstone and if you don’t go to church the devil will get you sort of thing. So he has started studying universal salvation. For those of you who don’t know it means everyone will get to heaven eventually. Their belief system is based on some interpretation of verse but also some philosophical answers to questions we all have. So I would like to share these with you and hear your opinions on them. They are individual questions but they also tie in together.

1st one is predestination vs free will which also involves the absolution of God vs relativism.So let me try to explain. If we have free will and some choose to deny or turn away completely from God they will be destined for an Eternity in Hell. The reason that Universal salvation denies this doctrine is because they believe that Gods works in the absolute not in the relative. So humans would consider the battle of good(God) vs evil(Devil) to be relative. Meaning if God gets the vast majority of souls to choose his way he wins. But what if the devil only gets one soul ? If only one soul, say Hitler does not repent at end times and sees God’s true glory then the Devil actually has his victory. Some will say well God uses some people as vessels for his plan, predestination, and these people will not suffer an eternity be wiped out completely. Universal Salvation says how can God create vessels to do evil. God is not capable of creating evil.

Look forward to your responses and please feel free to ask any questions if I did not explain well enough.

Predestination and free will are not incompatible. God creates each human and angel with the freedom to choose but knows what the choice will be (infallible foreknowledge), without that influencing the choice. Only those saved are numbered among the predestined, the others are reprobated negatively (implies the absolute will not to grant the bliss of heaven), and are numbered among the non-predestined from all eternity, by their free will.