Quick help needed.. salvation

[guanophore]

the anti-catholic’s latest e-mail… thanks to all for the help, I obviously need it.

That is why we are here!
anti-catholic:

Salvation is in a moment, and irrevokable.

This is a Reformed notion that emerged during the 1500’s. It constitutes a “different gospel”. It is not consistent with what the Apostles believed and taught. It is also contrary to a great number of Scriptures.
anti-catholic:

Growing in the Lord is a lifetime. That is what the rest of the Bible is for.

Actually, the Bible says this is what the Church is for! Scripture is profitable for spiritual growth, but it is not the only thing. If Scripture were all that were needed, Jesus would not have founded a church, and put people in charge of shepherding and feeding the sheep.
anti-catholic:

But if you’re going to direct me to the “extra-Biblical writings” of whoever, you won’t find me going there, ever

This is an expression of fear. He is afraid to read the early church fathers, because if he did, he would find out that the early church was Catholic.
anti-catholic:

And once again, you quoted Matthew 24, and used it out of context.  That is the Olivet Discourse.  Thoes that endure to the end, see the Lord's return.  Not "endure to the end to be saved from hell".  The word "saved" in the Bible (Greek "sozo") is used sometimes for salvation from hell, sometimes salvation from physical death, sometimes salvation from missing out on special blessings, sometimes salvation from losing rewards, etc.

There are a great many scriptures, besides Matt. 24 that reflect the idea that perseverance to the end is necessary. I don’t have my Bible right now, but I can post some more if you need them. What happens if you don’t “endure to the end”? Is it not clear that the implication is that one will not be saved? This is called a “conditional phrase”. When we see the word “if”, it indicates that a certain condition must be present.
anti-catholic:

I have a Bible that is ETERNAL.  The Word of God is eternal, in fact, He exalted His Word above His own Name.  So I don't have to trace the "history" of an organization or a building.  I have JESUS, who is eternal.   :)

I would leave this one alone, as it goes off in another direction. It is best to keep someone on one topic at a time. Right now, the focus should be on the nature of salvation. However, when the time comes, it might be useful to get into the fact that the Bible came from the Catholic Church.

 

[guanophore]

yeah, I used that one already. this guy just looks past verses like this, or he will add in his own meaning.

It is good that you recognize this.

this was my reply...

If John 3:16 is all we need then why is the bible so long?? My friend, there is more to the bible then one verse. You know much of the scriptures, but ignore their validity. You wonder why people on YA give you a hard time???.. Understanding the bible is not rocket science, I can see it is hard for you to justify your beliefs. You have to twist much of scripture to make it fit your theology.
God be with you
Dan

It is better, when chasing a rabbit, to chase one at a time. I would defer the nature and role of scripture for now, and focus on the nature of salvation. The OSAS view has to dispense with a great deal of scripture.

 

[danandirma]

It is good that you recognize this.

It is better, when chasing a rabbit, to chase one at a time. I would defer the nature and role of scripture for now, and focus on the nature of salvation. The OSAS view has to dispense with a great deal of scripture.

I really want to thank you for all your great insight.

 

[Tanner9188]

This is a very good question. In some sense, we are already perfected in baptism. EDIT His covering us with His blood, and His Spirit cleansing and transforming us by grace into His image. When we are glorified, all remnants of the “old man” will be purified from us, and then we will “see Him as He really is, for we shall be like HIm”.

What type of baptism? Water or Spirit? Paul said the the old man is dead; past tense; not dying; so you are incorrect in your assessment. Colossians 3
Romans 8:10-16; pay particular attention to verse 15, and then 16 is the assurance or in your religion I guess a false assurance; which makes the Holy Spirit a deceiver IMO; since one can become un-idwelt. There is much more that can be shown in Scripture in this regard, part of which we will see in a minute.

The difference between what many Protestants believe and the Apostolic Teaching is that we are not just ‘declared’ righteous, but actually “made” righteous. He wants us to be made perfect, as well as declared perfect. Many believe that we cannot live a holy life, and follow the commandments, but this is not true.

**You are correct; the Catholic religion commingles justification and sanctification; which is a grave error IMO and is easily shown from Scripture that they are separate, one from another; plus we have a couple of examples of people that fit this, such as the Publican in Like 18.
**

No, justification is just one aspect of salvation. It is a free gift, that we not boast. However, it is God who gives us the ability and desire to work with Him in our salvation. This is what it means when it says “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”. We work out what He has already placed within us.

**I believe you may have put the verse out of context; It cannot refer to salvation by works Rom 3"21-24, eph 2:8-9, but it does refer to a believers responsibility for an active pursuit of obedience in the life long profess of sanctification (rom 6:19, 1 Corinthians 9:24-27, 1 Corinthians 15:58, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Galatians 6:7 - 9, eph 4:1 & more **

The reason His work on the cross is not sufficient unless we cooperate is because He is not going to override our free will If we do not wish to be saved, He will respect our choice.

**Blasphemy!****“Who can resist His will?” Romans 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath {of God} through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like {that which came} through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment {arose} from one {transgression} resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift {arose} from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. **

On the contrary, we see many examples of being indwelt by the Spirit, then the spirit leaves the person.

I’ll bet everyone you can name; we can demonstrate they were unbelievers; otherwise grace is no longer grace and God is a liar.

The letter of Hebrews is directed to believers.

I’m talking specifically about the end of chapter 5:11 through 6:8 ; Is this to believers or unbelievers?

I am sure that it seems this way to you, since you appear to have been taught a deficient gospel. God is not finished working with us while we are on this earth. Salvation is not something that occurs at one point in time. ,for all time. It begins at justification, continues in sanctification, and is completed after this life, in glorification. While we are on this earth, the possibility remains that we can fall from the faith,and become shiprwrecked.

What do you do with Romans 8:29-30; toss it out? What do you do with 1 John 5:13-15; throw it out as well? Please explain what a Catholic does with these passages and they are not the only ones.

We are able to keep God’s commandments by grace, through faith. These good works are those that He predestined for us to walk in before the beginning of time. We die to ourselves, until all that is left is Christ within us.

**No one can and all have fallen short; not some but all except Jesus and Mary of the Church; which if Mary of the Church did not sin, then God is also a liar IMO. Sorry, couldn’t help but bring that to your attention. 1John1: 8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.**I’ll reply to rest tomorrow…God bless!

 

[guanophore]

What type of baptism? Water or Spirit?

The Apostles never separated the two, hence the Catholic Church does not.

Paul said the the old man is dead; past tense; not dying; so you are incorrect in your assessment.

If the old man were dead in the sense that you say, Paul would never have written Rom. 7. The old man is dead in the sense that, through the grace of God, we now have the power to win the struggle Paul describes. Paul is struggling against something very much alive in Himself.

Romans 8:10-16; pay particular attention to verse 15, and then 16 is the assurance or in your religion I guess a false assurance; which makes the Holy Spirit a deceiver IMO; since one can become un-idwelt.

No, Tanner. You have misunderstood the scripture. These assurances are written by Catholics, for Catholics. There are no contradictions between what is written in scripture, and what is taught by the Church.

You are correct; the Catholic religion commingles justification and sanctification; which is a grave error IMO and is easily shown from Scripture that they are separate, one from another; plus we have a couple of examples of people that fit this, such as the Publican in Like 18.

No, Tanner. they are not “co-mingled”. They are both parts of the one event of salvation. And they two are also not separated from glorification.

I believe you may have put the verse out of context; It cannot refer to salvation by works Rom 3"21-24, eph 2:8-9, but it does refer to a believers responsibility for an active pursuit of obedience in the life long profess of sanctification (rom 6:19, 1 Corinthians 9:24-27, 1 Corinthians 15:58, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Galatians 6:7 - 9, eph 4:1 & more

No, Tanner, the verse is in context. Most evangelicals stop reading at Eph 2:8-9. Catholics continue reading through v. 10. We see no separation between the grace that saves through faith, and the grace that produces the works of righteousness. I never said we are saved by works. Neither does the Catholic Church.

Blasphemy!“Who can resist His will?” Romans 5:6

No, Tanner, it is not blasphemy that God created us with the ability to reject Him. He did that with the angels also.

If humans do not resist His will, then why did He weep over Jerusalem? God desires all to be saved, yet, all are not. Why is this?

What do you think this verse means?

I’ll bet everyone you can name; we can demonstrate they were unbelievers; otherwise grace is no longer grace and God is a liar.

Are you presuming to judge who is saved, and who is not?

I’m talking specifically about the end of chapter 5:11 through 6:8 ; Is this to believers or unbelievers?

Heb 5:11-14

11 About this we have much to say which is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food; 13 for every one who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a child. 14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their faculties trained by practice to distinguish good from evil.

It seems pretty clear to me that he is addressing believers. Immature ones, apparently. Why would he be scolding unbelievers about how they ought to be teachers by now?
Tanner9188;5467495:

What do you do with Romans 8:29-30; toss it out?

No, Catholics don’t “toss out” scripture. This is an activity peculiar to the Reformation.

The Catholic Church believes in predestination. If you notice, these verses are written in the past tense. They refer to those who have already gone on to their heavenly reward.

What do you do with 1 John 5:13-15; throw it out as well?

If you can curb your hostility sufficiently, we will look at some of the verses that you appear to “throw out” in order to support your OSAS theology, ok?

Those who are in a state of grace may know that they have eternal life. Those in mortal sin cannot know this.

 Please explain what a Catholic does with these passages and they are not the only ones.

Catholics interpret all the verses according to the Teaching of the Apostles. This is what we call Sacred Tradition,which has been handed down to us from them. This informs our perspective on scripture, and helps us to understand it according to what they believed and taught.

No one can and all have fallen short; not some but all except Jesus and Mary of the Church; which if Mary of the Church did not sin, then God is also a liar IMO.

This demonstrates just how erroneous “IMO” really is.

It is possible to live without sin. Jesus came to conquer sin, not just eternally, but here and now.

Who is “Mary of the Church”?

Sorry, couldn't help but bring that to your attention. 1John1: 8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

I’ll reply to rest tomorrow…God bless!

But if we do sin, we have an advocate.

 

[Tanner9188]

EDITED TO ADDRESS ONE ISSUE
Tanner9188;5467495:

I’m talking specifically about the end of chapter 5:11 through 6:8 ; Is this to believers or unbelievers?

Heb 5:11-14

11 About this we have much to say which is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food; 13 for every one who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a child. 14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their faculties trained by practice to distinguish good from evil.

It seems pretty clear to me that he is addressing believers. Immature ones, apparently. Why would he be scolding unbelievers about how they ought to be teachers by now?

If you can curb your “edited for uncharitable comment”, we will look at some of the verses that you appear to “throw out” in order to support your OSAS theology, ok?

*Hebrews 6:4-6 "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift,(Christ 1) and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt."

So these are believers as you say; if this is true and it is not; then if you lose your salvation by “falling away”, then it says “it is IMPOSSIBLE TO RESTORE AGAIN TO REPENTANCE”

Maybe we should say Once Lost Always Lost? If however; it is speaking to nonbelievers, then they have come right to the edge of fully accepting Christ; tasted Him, when Jesus said to drink; witnessed the things of the Holy Spirit (partakers), been exposed to the gospel so many times that they should be teaching it; then walk away…their is no more repentance for them and IMPOSSIBLE TO RESTORE.

The point is that you cannot lose, then regain, lose then regain; you are either fully accepting and when you do; you are sealed by the Spirit of Promise as a guarantee of one’s salvation; therefore OSAS must be true or Once Lost Always Lost is true. Really spend some time on mediating on this passage.

May God open the truth to you. May you mediate on this and look at it in its fullness.**

 

[jlhargus]

**Hebrews 6:4-6 “For it is impossible to restore again to repentance *those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift,(Christ 1) and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt.”

So these are believers as you say; if this is true and it is not; then if you lose your salvation by “falling away”, then it says “it is IMPOSSIBLE TO RESTORE AGAIN TO REPENTANCE”

Maybe we should say Once Lost Always Lost? If however; it is speaking to nonbelievers, then they have come right to the edge of fully accepting Christ; tasted Him, when Jesus said to drink; witnessed the things of the Holy Spirit (partakers), been exposed to the gospel so many times that they should be teaching it; then walk away…their is no more repentance for them and IMPOSSIBLE TO RESTORE.

JL: BELIEVERS specifically HEBREW BELIEVERS

The point is that you cannot lose, then regain, lose then regain; you are either fully accepting and when you do; you are sealed by the Spirit of Promise as a guarantee of one’s salvation; therefore OSAS must be true or Once Lost Always Lost is true. Really spend some time on mediating on this passage.

May God open the truth to you. May you mediate on this and look at it in its fullness.

 

[Tanner9188]

Where’s Guanaphore?

Originally Posted by guanophore View Post
EDITED TO ADDRESS ONE ISSUE

Originally Posted by Tanner9188 View Post
I’m talking specifically about the end of chapter 5:11 through 6:8 ; Is this to believers or unbelievers?
Heb 5:11-14

11 About this we have much to say which is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food; 13 for every one who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a child. 14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their faculties trained by practice to distinguish good from evil.

Guanaphore:

It seems pretty clear to me that he is addressing believers. Immature ones, apparently. Why would he be scolding unbelievers about how they ought to be teachers by now?

If you can curb your “edited for uncharitable comment”, we will look at some of the verses that you appear to “throw out” in order to support your OSAS theology, ok?
Hebrews 6:4-6 “For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift,(Christ 1*) and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt.”

**So these are believers as you say; if this is true and it is not; then if you lose your salvation by “falling away”, then it says “it is IMPOSSIBLE TO RESTORE AGAIN TO REPENTANCE”

Maybe we should say Once Lost Always Lost? If however; it is speaking to nonbelievers, then they have come right to the edge of fully accepting Christ; tasted Him, when Jesus said to drink; witnessed the things of the Holy Spirit (partakers), been exposed to the gospel so many times that they should be teaching it; then walk away…their is no more repentance for them and IMPOSSIBLE TO RESTORE.

The point is that you cannot lose, then regain, lose then regain; you are either fully accepting and when you do; you are sealed by the Spirit of Promise as a guarantee of one’s salvation; therefore OSAS must be true or Once Lost Always Lost is true. Really spend some time on mediating on this passage.

May God open the truth to you. May you mediate on this and look at it in its fullness.**

 

[jlhargus]

**Hebrews 6:4-6 “For it is impossible to restore again to repentance *those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift,(Christ 1) and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt.”

So these are believers as you say; if this is true and it is not; then if you lose your salvation by “falling away”, then it says “it is IMPOSSIBLE TO RESTORE AGAIN TO REPENTANCE”

Maybe we should say Once Lost Always Lost? If however; it is speaking to nonbelievers, then they have come right to the edge of fully accepting Christ; tasted Him, when Jesus said to drink; witnessed the things of the Holy Spirit (partakers), been exposed to the gospel so many times that they should be teaching it; then walk away…their is no more repentance for them and IMPOSSIBLE TO RESTORE.

JL: [Hb6:4 For it is impossible for those who were ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and have TASTED of THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and were made PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, 5 And have TASTED the good WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, 6 IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN unto repentance; SEEING THEY CRUCIFY to themselves THE SON of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.]

Paul is addressing a Christian community of those who have been ENLIGHTENED. They are not on the EDGE of being enlightened they are ENLIGHTENED and HAVE TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, They have the indwelling Holy Ghost.

Paul warns believers, with the indwelling Holy Spirit , of the danger of apostasy, alluding to those once Christian Hebrews, who left the Christian community and returned to Judaism. Having rejected Christ’s sacrifice, returning and placing their faith in animal sacrifice, which can never renew them again to repentance taking away sin. It is impossible for them to repent and be renewed, apart from Christ and the Christian Community. As long as they remain hostile to the Gospel, it is impossible to renew them unto repentance. They are separated from Christ and his people, by choice and crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh.

Why warn believing Christians against falling away if it can’t happen? How can non-believers, fall away from something they don’t have? Could non-believers be RESTORED to something they haven’t first possessed? The point is when a believer falls away from Christ, they will not find salvation in anyone other than Christ, it is impossible, as there is no other name under heaven by which men can be saved.

2Pt2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through [the full, personal] knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they again become entangled in them and are overcome, their last condition is worse [for them] than the first. 21 For never to have obtained a [full, personal] knowledge of the way of righteousness would have been better for them than, having obtained [such knowledge], to turn back from the holy commandment which was [verbally] delivered to them. 22 There has befallen them the thing spoken of in the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and, The sow is washed only to wallow again in the mire. [Amplified Bible]

Sources: RSV, Ignatius Catholic Study Bible, Commentary and Notes by Scott Hahn and Curtis Mitch. Douay-Rheims Bible, footnotes, Loreto Publications. NAB, The Catholic Answer Bible footnotes, Our Sunday Visitor Publishing Division. And a Protestant source, David Guzik’s Commentaries on the Bible, on line @ studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=heb&chapter=006

 

[Tanner9188]

JL: [Hb6:4 For it is impossible for those who were ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and have TASTED of THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and were made PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, 5 And have TASTED the good WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, 6 IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN unto repentance; SEEING THEY CRUCIFY to themselves THE SON of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.]

Paul is addressing a Christian community of those who have been ENLIGHTENED. They are not on the EDGE of being enlightened they are ENLIGHTENED and HAVE TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, They have the indwelling Holy Ghost.

Paul warns believers, with the indwelling Holy Spirit , of the danger of apostasy, alluding to those once Christian Hebrews, who left the Christian community and returned to Judaism. Having rejected Christ’s sacrifice, returning and placing their faith in animal sacrifice, which can never renew them again to repentance taking away sin. It is impossible for them to repent and be renewed, apart from Christ and the Christian Community. As long as they remain hostile to the Gospel, it is impossible to renew them unto repentance. They are separated from Christ and his people, by choice and crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh.

Why warn believing Christians against falling away if it can’t happen? How can non-believers, fall away from something they don’t have? Could non-believers be RESTORED to something they haven’t first possessed? The point is when a believer falls away from Christ, they will not find salvation in anyone other than Christ, it is impossible, as there is no other name under heaven by which men can be saved.

2Pt2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through [the full, personal] knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they again become entangled in them and are overcome, their last condition is worse [for them] than the first. 21 For never to have obtained a [full, personal] knowledge of the way of righteousness would have been better for them than, having obtained [such knowledge], to turn back from the holy commandment which was [verbally] delivered to them. 22 There has befallen them the thing spoken of in the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and, The sow is washed only to wallow again in the mire. [Amplified Bible]

Sources: RSV, Ignatius Catholic Study Bible, **Commentary and Notes by Scott Hahn and Curtis Mitch. ** Douay-Rheims Bible, footnotes, Loreto Publications. NAB, The Catholic Answer Bible footnotes, Our Sunday Visitor Publishing Division. And a Protestant source, David Guzik’s Commentaries on the Bible, on line @ studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=heb&chapter=006

**So, OLAL or OSAS - these are the two choices

**

 

[jlhargus]

So, OLAL or OSAS - these are the two choices

JL: I see you can’t answer Kevin.

 

[guanophore]

**Hebrews 6:4-6 "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance *those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift,(Christ 1) and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt.

So these are believers as you say; if this is true and it is not; then if you lose your salvation by “falling away”, then it says "it is IMPOSSIBLE TO RESTORE AGAIN TO REPENTANCE"Maybe we should say Once Lost Always Lost?

Indeed, this was a hot topic of discussion among the early fathers. Since the Church was under persecution for 300 years, and publicly admitting one’s faith often resulted in the death penalty, there were some who caved in when confronted, denying Christ.

Matt 10:32-33
32 So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; 33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

The controversy was about whether a person who had denied the faith before authorities was not just lost now, but also eternally lost. Eventually, the Church discerned that, so long as a person is alive, they can still come to repentance, and make peace with God before the judgement (death).

2 Tim 2:12
12 if we endure, we shall also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;

These statements in Tim. are called conditional statements. They mean that the outcomes are conditioned upon the criterial being met. IF we endure…If we deny Him.

If however; it is speaking to nonbelievers, then they have come right to the edge of fully accepting Christ; tasted Him, when Jesus said to drink; witnessed the things of the Holy Spirit (partakers), been exposed to the gospel so many times that they should be teaching it; then walk away...their is no more repentance for them and IMPOSSIBLE TO RESTORE.

No, Tanner. The passage is written to believers. The writer is scolding them because “by this time you ought to be teachers”. The Apostles did not authorize non-believers to teach. I have heard this “exposed to the gospel” rendering from Reformed sources. I think that is the only way to spin it in order to deny the Aposotlic Teaching that one can truly be saved, and truly fall away. When one comes to repentance, one is saved. One cannot be an unbeliever and be in a state of repentance. The two are mutually exclusive. As you have capitalized above, the issue here is restoration. One cannot be restored to something they did not have in the first place!

The better arguement I have heard from anti-Catholics in this passage is that it does not apply to Gentiles, only Jews. Maybe you could try that one?

The point is that you cannot lose, then regain, lose then regain; you are either fully accepting and when you do; you are sealed by the Spirit of Promise as a guarantee of one’s salvation; therefore OSAS must be true or Once Lost Always Lost is true. Really spend some time on mediating on this passage.

Oh, believe me, it took me about 20 years to meditate and pray my way out of the error of OSAS. Indeed, one can be in a state of grace (right relationship with God) get out of it, and get back into it. The seal is permanent, though, and that is why the Apostles taught that for those who have come to repentance (been sealed) then fall away, their last state is worse than their first.

May God open the truth to you. May you mediate on this and look at it in its fullness.

Amen!

Here is another passage for meditation:

Jude 21-23
21 keep yourselves in the love of God; wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And convince some, who doubt; 23 save some, by snatching them out of the fire; on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

What fire is about to overtake some here?

 

[TristanCross]

James: “Faith without works is dead”

Think about this. Faith without works is dead. So, if Sola Fide (Faith Alone) is true, and someone has no works but claims to have faith, their faith is dead. That means they don’t really have faith. Therefore, Sola Fide is impossible and totally wrong. Your works (deeds) regenerate your faith.

Many think we are like the Judaizers in Galatians who believed we have to obey the Law in order to be saved. That is not true. By works, we don’t mean keeping the Law. We don’t have to keep the Law to be saved. Many non-Catholics will show verses (usually out of context to support their views) that basically say, “You can not earn salvation”, and, “Your works (keeping the Law, in context) are filthy rags and will not bring you to salvation”.

Martin Luther didn’t like a lot of Bible books that disagreed with this. Luther took Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation out of the New Testament to support his new belief of Sola Fide. The books were added back in because many disliked his taking of them out. Trust me, I was Lutheran.

So, faith without works is dead. Works = Deeds. Works regenerate your faith. Works are needed. Keeping the Law is not a means of Salvation.

In Christ’s Precious Name,
Amen.

 

[guanophore]

**Where’s Guanaphore? **

I was at Church, praying for the members of CAF. I know it may be hard to believe, looking at my post count,but I really do have a full time job.

** So, OLAL or OSAS - these are the two choices

**

No, Tanner, they are not. Another choice would be to accept what the Apostles taught, and that would be that one can enter a state of grace with God, then fall from it, being cut off from the vine, having their faith shipwrecked, their name blotted out of the book of life.

2 Peter 2:20-21
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

Use your common sense, Tanner! No one can “escape the defilements of the world” apart from the blood of Christ, and His saving grace.

 

[Tanner9188]

I was at Church, praying for the members of CAF. I know it may be hard to believe, looking at my post count,but I really do have a full time job.

No, Tanner, they are not. Another choice would be to accept what the Apostles taught, and that would be that one can enter a state of grace with God, then fall from it, being cut off from the vine, having their faith shipwrecked, their name blotted out of the book of life.

2 Peter 2:20-21
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

This speaks of a head knowledge of the gospel; but is an apostate turning their back on the message and therefore there is no longer the possibility of repentance; therefore it would have been better if they never known. Consistent with Scripture and adds to the point in Hebrews.

Use your common sense, Tanner! No one can “escape the defilements of the world” apart from the blood of Christ, and His saving grace.

**We agree here; you are interesting person; you seem as though you have/had a protestant background and left the faith to go into another faith.

Unfortunately; there is not a third option associated with this passage as you tried to infer. That is the problem; this passage creates a real delimma for Catholics. I am and have been looking at this in great detail and plan on beginning a new thread on this topic sometime; I hope his week.

I have already reached a conclusion that the writer is speaking corporately and not to just believers; but unbelievers as well. Just as in any church assembly; you will find those that have truly received Christ and those that sit in pews for years and have become dull of hearing and have never accepted by faith alone the grace God bestows to His own. The unbeliever becomes the apostate; the believer will press forward as the writer is encouraging. This is both a warning and an encouragement. But there is a sin lead in to death.

Another side note; I discovered something in the book of Acts that that will help me prove from Scripture, what I already knew to be true, but is difficult to reach those who believe that every time they see the word baptism; that it is water and that it has saving capacity, which is a farce.

I hope to start a thread on this issue because the evidence is so compelling; i do not expect to people to have the lights go on, but that is solely the position of the Holy Spirit or in your religion the Pope, as the vicar of Christ, originally reserved and shown by the Scripture and early church fathers as the Holy Spirit. That is also a different thread

Lord willing; i will have the opportunity to bring these to the forefront.**

 

[Tanner9188]

James: “Faith without works is dead”

Think about this. Faith without works is dead. So, if Sola Fide (Faith Alone) is true, and someone has no works but claims to have faith, their faith is dead. That means they don’t really have faith. Therefore, Sola Fide is impossible and totally wrong. Your works (deeds) regenerate your faith.

Many think we are like the Judaizers in Galatians who believed we have to obey the Law in order to be saved. That is not true. By works, we don’t mean keeping the Law. We don’t have to keep the Law to be saved. Many non-Catholics will show verses (usually out of context to support their views) that basically say, “You can not earn salvation”, and, “Your works (keeping the Law, in context) are filthy rags and will not bring you to salvation”.

Martin Luther didn’t like a lot of Bible books that disagreed with this. Luther took Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation out of the New Testament to support his new belief of Sola Fide. The books were added back in because many disliked his taking of them out. Trust me, I was Lutheran.

So, faith without works is dead. Works = Deeds. Works regenerate your faith. Works are needed. Keeping the Law is not a means of Salvation.

In Christ’s Precious Name,
Amen.

You also misunderstand what James is emphasizing and James actually complements Paul in stating that justification is the free gift of God and is manifested before the world through good deeds the Lord prepared before hand that we would walk in them. Both are important, are not inclusive to each other, but the true faith by gods saving grace will manifest as good deeds because that which God stats; He alone will complete in the life of the believer until the day of Jesus. Works are results, not the means of saving faith.

 

[guanophore]

This speaks of a head knowledge of the gospel;

This is what you have been told, but there is nothing in the passage to indicate that, and such an interpretation is contrary to what the Apostles believed and taught. “head knowledge” cannot help anyone escape from defilement. Jesus blood is the only thing that can make us pure. We can only be made pure by being "in Christ’. Unbelievers are not “in Christ”. The gospel message does not regenerate those who do not come in faith.

 but is an apostate turning their back on the message and therefore there is no longer the possibility of repentance; therefore it would have been better if they never known.  Consistent with Scripture and adds to the point in Hebrews.

One cannot be “apostate” without belief. Apostate means fallen away. one cannot fall away from what they are not holding to in the first place. I know this is a very hard passage for OSAS folks to dispense with, but frankly, your defense is very weak. For those that never come to faoith, are cleansed, and escape from the defilement of the world, repentance is always possible (until death). You can’t be “restored” to something you never had! It says one cannot be RESTORED to repentance, which means they previously were in a state of repentance (and faith toward God) then fell away.

The reason it is better for those sealed to never have known is that the sealing is permanent, and forsaking the faith marks one as apostasized. Your interpretation is NOT consistent with Scripture, and the point of this section of Heb. is to be careful not to fall away from the faith!

We agree here; you are interesting person; you seem as though you have/had a protestant background and left the faith to go into another faith.

I have had a lot of training in Protestant theology, it is true. There is only One Faith, though, One Church, One Baptism.

Unfortunately; there is not a third option associated with this passage as you tried to infer. That is the problem; this passage creates a real delimma for Catholics. I am and have been looking at this in great detail and plan on beginning a new thread on this topic sometime; I hope his week.

Ok. I will look for that. There are no dilemmas in Scripture for Catholics. The entire NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. Nothing in Catholic teaching contradicts what is in the Scripture.

I have already reached a conclusion that the writer is speaking corporately and not to just believers; but unbelievers as well.

He is writing to the Hebrews. Salvation is from the Jews. While I agree that there were some faithless Jews, this letter is written to believing Jews.

Just as in any church assembly; you will find those that have truly received Christ and those that sit in pews for years and have become dull of hearing and have never accepted by faith alone the grace God bestows to His own. The unbeliever becomes the apostate; the believer will press forward as the writer is encouraging. This is both a warning and an encouragement. But there is a sin lead in to death.

An unbeliever cannot become an apostate. One has to have embraced faith in order to let go of it.

Another side note; I discovered something in the book of Acts that that will help me prove from Scripture, what I already knew to be true, but is difficult to reach those who believe that every time they see the word baptism; that it is water and that it has saving capacity, which is a farce.

Your understanding of baptism is a departure from what the Apostles believed and taught.

I hope to start a thread on this issue because the evidence is so compelling; i do not expect to people to have the lights go on, but that is solely the position of the Holy Spirit or in your religion the Pope, as the vicar of Christ, originally reserved and shown by the Scripture and early church fathers as the Holy Spirit. That is also a different thread

Lord willing; i will have the opportunity to bring these to the forefront.

For some inexplicable reason, you may believe that the HS does not enlighten Catholics, or that the pope does not cooperate with the HS. I find such an inference insulting.

 

[guanophore]

**You also misunderstand what James is emphasizing **

And why should your interpretation be any more valid than ours?

James actually complements Paul in stating that justification is the free gift of God

This is Catholic teaching. that is why it is in Scripture. There is nothing in the NT that is not Catholic.

faith is manifested before the world through good deeds the Lord prepared before hand that we would walk in them.  Both are important, are not inclusive to each other

What does that mean? I think James is saying the opposite of what you are. He is saying they ARE inclusive. Or at least that faith is inclusive of good works.

the true faith by gods saving grace will manifest as good deeds because that which God stats; He alone will complete in the life of the believer until the day of Jesus.  Works are results, not the means of saving faith.

Well, they are both. Good works also strengthen saving faith. However we are saved by neither of them. We are saved by grace. Grace works through our faith and deeds. Through our actions and our faith we access saving grace.

 

[Tanner9188]

guanophore:
This is what you have been told, but there is nothing in the passage to indicate that, and such an interpretation is contrary to what the Apostles believed and taught. “head knowledge” cannot help anyone escape from defilement. Jesus blood is the only thing that can make us pure. We can only be made pure by being "in Christ’. Unbelievers are not “in Christ”. The gospel message does not regenerate those who do not come in faith.

One cannot be “apostate” without belief. Apostate means fallen away. one cannot fall away from what they are not holding to in the first place. I know this is a very hard passage for OSAS folks to dispense with, but frankly, your defense is very weak. For those that never come to faoith, are cleansed, and escape from the defilement of the world, repentance is always possible (until death). You can’t be “restored” to something you never had! It says one cannot be RESTORED to repentance, which means they previously were in a state of repentance (and faith toward God) then fell away.

The reason it is better for those sealed to never have known is that the sealing is permanent, and forsaking the faith marks one as apostasized. Your interpretation is NOT consistent with Scripture, and the point of this section of Heb. is to be careful not to fall away from the faith!

I have had a lot of training in Protestant theology, it is true. There is only One Faith, though, One Church, One Baptism.

Ok. I will look for that. There are no dilemmas in Scripture for Catholics. The entire NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. Nothing in Catholic teaching contradicts what is in the Scripture.

He is writing to the Hebrews. Salvation is from the Jews. While I agree that there were some faithless Jews, this letter is written to believing Jews.

An unbeliever cannot become an apostate. One has to have embraced faith in order to let go of it.

Your understanding of baptism is a departure from what the Apostles believed and taught.

For some inexplicable reason, you may believe that the HS does not enlighten Catholics, or that the pope does not cooperate with the HS. I find such an inference insulting.

**First; I get my information from the Bible, which is what the apostles and those associated with them gave to us through the work Holy Spirit; it is you and your organization that have distorted the apostolic teaching by adding a myriad of extras over 1700 plus years IMO.

John 16:8-11 gives the clear purpose of the Holy Spirit: " 8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

Therefore; one can and will receive a head knowledge of both what is good and what is not concerning the gospel and be convicted one way or the other; receiving or rejecting, salvation or condemnation.

Isaiah gives an example of this “head knowledge”:Isaiah 29:13 13 Then the Lord said, "Because this people draw near with their words And honor Me with their lip service, But they remove their hearts far from Me, And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned {by rote,} "

Romans 1 speaks of this same idea; knowing the truth of God and denying it. An apostate is one exposed to the gospel, but not convicted in their hearts as to the truth; therefore rejecting what they have been exposed to and walking away.

By the way you said: *“The entire NT was written by, for, and about Catholics” *Really? You believe this with all of your heart, mind and soul?

I thought it was written by men under the direct influence of the Holy Spirit, these of mostly Jewish descent, for Jesus told the Samaritan woman that salvation is from the Jews. I thought it was God’s plan of redemption, about Jesus and His sacrifice on behalf of sinners; that they may be cleansed by His blood, not water; unto salvation or reconciliation to God, not Catholics.

God bless the hearing and doing of His word for all mankind!**

 

[Tanner9188]

guanophore:
And why should your interpretation be any more valid than ours?

This is Catholic teaching. that is why it is in Scripture. There is nothing in the NT that is not Catholic.

What does that mean? I think James is saying the opposite of what you are. He is saying they ARE inclusive. Or at least that faith is inclusive of good works.

Well, they are both. Good works also strengthen saving faith. However we are saved by neither of them. We are saved by grace. Grace works through our faith and deeds. Through our actions and our faith we access saving grace.
A completely different gospel and contrary to a myriad of Scripture. Good works are the result of saving faith as Paul put it in Romans 10 stated in the previous post. You add 1/2 of 1% to saving grace through you good works; grace is no longer grace…period.