Quick Q: Regards Sacrament of Martrimony

[JaKael02]

Hi,

I am stumped and cannot find a reliable answer. So I turn to CAF.

Question:

Can my cousin get validly married in Catholic Church w/ Sacramental recognition?

Background:

Previously married. Divorced. The ex-husband is baptised in a Protestant Church. The ex-wife is baptised in Catholic Church, received 1st communion, never Confirmed in Catholic Church. Married by Presbyterian Minister. Married for 9 years and had 1 child together.

Now:

New husband is baptised and is Catholic. Wants to get married in Catholic Church. She claims she can validly get married in CC w/ sacrament and the Priest will annul her existing marriage.

On what grounds would the priest annul the existing marriage? Wasn’t her old marriage a valid marriage?

Any thoughts or official Canon law would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

James

 

[DCNBILL]

Hi,

I am stumped and cannot find a reliable answer. So I turn to CAF.

Question:

Can my cousin get validly married in Catholic Church w/ Sacramental recognition?

Background:

Previously married. Divorced. The ex-husband is baptised in a Protestant Church. The ex-wife is baptised in Catholic Church, received 1st communion, never Confirmed in Catholic Church. Married by Presbyterian Minister. Married for 9 years and had 1 child together.

Now:

New husband is baptised and is Catholic. Wants to get married in Catholic Church. She claims she can validly get married in CC w/ sacrament and the Priest will annul her existing marriage.

On what grounds would the priest annul the existing marriage? Wasn’t her old marriage a valid marriage?

Any thoughts or official Canon law would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

James

It sounds like she could seek a “Total Lack of Form” petition to have her first marriage taken care of.

She needs to go to her parish and talk to a priest, this is the only way that this can be taken care of and she must do this prior to the wedding, no plans should be made for a Catholic wedding until this is taken care of.

 

[JaKael02]

She has spoken with her Priest. He said he plans to annul the existing marriage. On what grounds? I have no idea.

My sister (confirmed Catholic) was unable to Marry in CC b/c she married a divorced non-christian. I don’t see how this is different than my cousins situation. Except my cousin is unconfirmed Catholic.

Thank you,

James

 

[1ke]

Can my cousin get validly married in Catholic Church w/ Sacramental recognition?

Your question is a little jumbled and unclear.

Your cousin needs to sit down and talk to her priest, not to random strangers on the internet.

Previously married. Divorced.
The ex-husband is baptised in a Protestant Church.

Your cousin married a protestant and they divorced.

The ex-wife is baptised in Catholic Church, received 1st communion, never Confirmed in Catholic Church.

Who is the “ex wife” you refer to? Your cousin?

Married by Presbyterian Minister. Married for 9 years and had 1 child together.

You don’t say whether either of them had a previous marriage.

New husband is baptised and is Catholic. Wants to get married in Catholic Church.

I assume you mean new husband-to-be. They are not married yet. We also further presume that he is free to marry-- has either never been married or has a decree of nullity.

She claims she can validly get married in CC w/ sacrament

That may very well be true. Honestly, I can’t make heads or tails out of your explanation.

and the Priest will annul her existing marriage.

Well, priests do not annul marriages. Perhaps she means assist her with the nullity process.

On what grounds would the priest annul the existing marriage? Wasn’t her old marriage a valid marriage?

I suggest this chart:

diocs.org/Portals/1/Documents/Tribunal/Decision_matrix.pdf

There are many variables. She simply needs to lay out all the facts to her priest and he will guide her.

I’m not sure what your stake in all this is. She is the one in contact with her priest, why would you doubt her veracity?

 

[1ke]

My sister (confirmed Catholic) was unable to Marry in CC b/c she married a divorced non-christian.

Correct, her “husband” is not free to marry and is not her husband at all. She is committing adultery.

He can, however, have his prior marriage examined by the tribunal regarding nullity. If it is found to be null, they can convalidate their marriage.

I don’t see how this is different than my cousins situation. .

Well, the details matter. You do not have all the details of either situation.

Except my cousin is unconfirmed Catholic.

Well, if your cousin in fact married outside the Church without a dispensation then she did have a lack of form and she did not have a valid marriage.

Again, the details matter. And, we are merely speculating because we do not have the details. Neither do you.

 

[JaKael02]

Your cousin married a protestant and they divorced.

Yes

 

[1ke]

I doubt because her character is sketchy… I’m curious if she is “fuzzying” the facts to get a valid marriage. It doesn’t add up. I’m not a marriage expert though.

Well, the priest must conduct a premarital investigation of freedom to marry. Your cousin will have to supply all sort of official documents. Unless she outright perpetrates fraud, I am sure the priest will have all he needs to properly handle the situation.

If your cousin married her first husband in the Presbyterian church without going through the Catholic Church for premarital preparation, permission for a mixed marriage, and dispensation from canonical form, then she indeed did have an invalid marriage and is free to marry in the Catholic Church after providing some simple paperwork.

Her situation is not the same as your sister, who has attempted marriage to someone who is not free to marry.

 

[JaKael02]

Well, if your cousin in fact married outside the Church without a dispensation then she did have a lack of form and she did not have a valid marriage.

So if she did not have a dispensation, and therefore not have a valid marriage. Does that mean she CAN re-marry in CC and thus receive sacrament since it was not a marriage?

 

[1ke]

So if she did not have a dispensation, and therefore not have a valid marriage. Does that mean she CAN re-marry in CC and thus receive sacrament since it was not a marriage?

Yes. That means her first marriag was an invalid attempt at marriage and she is free to marry in the Church, after completing some paperwork. That is likely what she is referring to, the priest assisting her with the paperwork.

 

[JaKael02]

Her situation is not the same as your sister, who has attempted marriage to someone who is not free to marry.

This is the part that trips me up. My sister is not free to marry b/c her husband had an invalid marriage, but my divorced cousin is now free to marry b/c her past marriage was invalid?

It seems the only difference is my sister did not get a decleration of nullity?

Thank you,

James

 

[JaKael02]

Yes. That means her first marriag was an invalid attempt at marriage and she is free to marry in the Church, after completing some paperwork. That is likely what she is referring to, the priest assisting her with the paperwork.

Thank you. I have to leave work now. But will respond when I get home.

James

 

[SonCatcher]

This is the part that trips me up. My sister is not free to marry b/c her husband had an invalid marriage, but my divorced cousin is now free to marry b/c her past marriage was invalid?

It seems the only difference is my sister did not get a decleration of nullity?

Thank you,

James

Actually, your sister’s “husband” is presumed to be validly married to someone else because the Church does recognize marriages between non-Christians. He would have to get his first marriage examined by the Church to determine whether there it is null (this is covered in ke’s chart).

 

[1ke]

This is the part that trips me up. My sister is not free to marry b/c her husband had an invalid marriage

No. Your sister was not free to marry because the person she wanted to marry is already married to someone else. His first marriage is valid. Unless he can prove nullity before the tribunal.

It seems the only difference is my sister did not get a decleration of nullity?

It is your sister’s “husband” who would have to obtain a decree of nullity, if there were grounds for it. (which is not guaranteed).

 

[JaKael02]

Yes. That means her first marriag was an invalid attempt at marriage and she is free to marry in the Church, after completing some paperwork. That is likely what she is referring to, the priest assisting her with the paperwork.

Invalid attempt at a marriage that is sacramental you mean?

The Church does recognize non-Christian marriages.

So it also recognizes two-baptised Christians outside of the Church as marriages too?

Also, I had previously thought the Sacrament of marriage is instituted by the two individuals. The Priest is only a witness. So not sure why any two baptised Christians can not have a Sacramental Marriage?

Sorry if I’m confusing or bogging you down with Q’s.

Thank you for your thoughts and responses.

James

 

[SonCatcher]

Invalid attempt at a marriage that is sacramental you mean?

The Church does recognize non-Christian marriages.

So it also recognizes two-baptised Christians outside of the Church as marriages too?

Also, I had previously thought the Sacrament of marriage is instituted by the two individuals. The Priest is only a witness. So not sure why any two baptised Christians can not have a Sacramental Marriage?

Sorry if I’m confusing or bogging you down with Q’s.

Thank you for your thoughts and responses.

James

Don’t confuse the Institution of Marriage with the Sacrament of Marriage. The Church recognizes all validly contracted marriages, regardless of religion of the spouses. When both spouses are Baptized Christians, their validly contracted marriage is a Sacrament. There can be no sacrament if the marriage is invalid, however.

For Catholics, the Church requires we follow certain requirements as a condition of validity. If one of those requirements is absent (such as the lack of the Church’s witness), then validity is absent. Without validity, there is no sacrament.

 

[1ke]

Invalid attempt at a marriage that is sacramental you mean?

No. Invalid attempt at marriage, period. Your cousin is not a non-Christian. Your cousin is a Catholic. Therefore, she was bound by Catholic law on marriage and did not follow it. That is why her attempted marriage is invalid.

The Church does recognize non-Christian marriages.

So it also recognizes two-baptised Christians outside of the Church as marriages too?

Yes, a marriage betweent two unbaptized people or one baptized/one unbaptized is a valid natural marriage (providing there are no divine law impediments)

A marriage between two baptized non-Catholics is a valid, sacramental marriage (providing there are no divine law impediments).

Neither of these apply to your cousin, who is a Catholic.

Also, I had previously thought the Sacrament of marriage is instituted by the two individuals. The Priest is only a witness.

Correct, the priest is the witness for the Church when two Catholics (or one Catholic/one non-Catholic) marry.

So not sure why any two baptised Christians can not have a Sacramental Marriage?

Not sure what led you to the conclusion above. When two baptized parties contract a valid marriage, it is also a sacrament.

 

[JaKael02]

No. Invalid attempt at marriage, period. Your cousin is not a non-Christian. Your cousin is a Catholic. Therefore, she was bound by Catholic law on marriage and did not follow it. That is why her attempted marriage is invalid.

What technically makes my cousin Catholic?

She did not Receive sacrament of Confirmation. Quit going to Church around 12. Then in her 1st marriage, she just defaults to husbands Church when getting married (Presbyterian). Now, she’s 35 and can claim for 23 (35 - 12 = 23) years she’s been a valid Catholic and therefore her past marriage is just invalid attempt?

That is where my gut instinct is struggling. Seems the Church would not recognize her as Catholic and therefore consider her past marriage as Sacramental.

I do understand the “Logic” of the Law now.

Yes, a marriage betweent two unbaptized people or one baptized/one unbaptized is a valid natural marriage (providing there are no divine law impediments)

Gotcha.

Thank you,

James

 

[JaKael02]

No. Invalid attempt at marriage, period. Your cousin is not a non-Christian. Your cousin is a Catholic. Therefore, she was bound by Catholic law on marriage and did not follow it. That is why her attempted marriage is invalid.

Yes, a marriage betweent two unbaptized people or one baptized/one unbaptized is a valid natural marriage (providing there are no divine law impediments)

A marriage between two baptized non-Catholics is a valid, sacramental marriage (providing there are no divine law impediments).

Neither of these apply to your cousin, who is a Catholic.

Thank you. I responded to my remaining concerns in my previous post. That is the last part I struggle with.

James

Correct, the priest is the witness for the Church when two Catholics (or one Catholic/one non-Catholic) marry.

Not sure what led you to the conclusion above. When two baptized parties contract a valid marriage, it is also a sacrament.

Don’t confuse the Institution of Marriage with the Sacrament of Marriage. The Church recognizes all validly contracted marriages, regardless of religion of the spouses. When both spouses are Baptized Christians, their validly contracted marriage is a Sacrament. There can be no sacrament if the marriage is invalid, however.

For Catholics, the Church requires we follow certain requirements as a condition of validity. If one of those requirements is absent (such as the lack of the Church’s witness), then validity is absent. Without validity, there is no sacrament.

 

[1ke]

What technically makes my cousin Catholic?

She is Catholic by virtue of her baptism. And there is nothing technical about it. She is Catholic in fact and in law.

she’s been a valid Catholic and therefore her past marriage is just invalid attempt?

Yes. Her Catholic baptism binds her irrevocably to the Church and its marriage laws.

Seems the Church would not recognize her as Catholic and therefore consider her past marriage as Sacramental.

if you are baptized a Catholic, then Catholic you are and Catholic you die.

 

[JaKael02]

She is Catholic by virtue of her baptism. And there is nothing technical about it. She is Catholic in fact and in law. Her Catholic baptism binds her irrevocably to the Church and its marriage laws. If you are baptized a Catholic, then Catholic you are and Catholic you die.

Thank you for taking your time out to respond to these questions. My further questions are outside of the scope of this thread.

I’m left wondering why a CC baptism infuses someone into the Church for life and not Confirmation? Why is someone unable to leave CC, especially when they were not raised properly in CC?

Anyways, I’ll resolve these questions at some point.

Thanks again,

James