Quick question about The Catechism of the Catholic Church

[annad347]

(To be fair, you should ask “Gorgias, why do you have authority to tell me this?”, right? And my answer would be, “I’m not the origin of this doctrine, the Church Jesus founded and its apostolic leadership teaches this, and teaches it authoritatively!”)

and you believe all this is true because Jesus said it was true… correct. It’s biblical, written in scripture. Jesus gave authority to specific people to teach His Truth. You believe in the authority of these people because Jesus said Matthew 16:17-19 even the gates of hell will not prevail against it?

There is no other reason you have assurance to believe in the authoritative teaching of the Catholic church, correct?

 

[Gorgias]

Jesus said it was true … correct. It’s biblical, written in scripture.

One quibble: it’s true because Jesus said it, not because it was subsequently written down in Scripture.

You believe in the authority of these people because Jesus said Matthew 16:17-19 even the gates of hell will not prevail against it?

There is no other reason you have assurance to believe in the authoritative teaching of the Catholic church, correct?

I’m not sure I’d say “no other reason”, but that certainly forms the core of it.

 

[annad347]

“I’m not the origin of this doctrine, the Church Jesus founded and its apostolic leadership teaches this, and teaches it authoritatively!”

and I’m not the origin of the fact the Holy Spirit leads us to God’s truth. It’s not based on my judgement, or comes from me, looking at the Bible and saying to myself “I’ve got it right!”. It’s the Holy Spirit leading me to read the Bible, then helping me understand the fact Jesus says I am given the Holy Spirit to lead me to His truth, His path, His will, when I am baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I’ve already given you scripture.

I just have to pay attention.

The same assurance you have the teaching of the Apostles is in the Catholic church is the same assurance I have I’m being lead to God by the Holy Spirit Matthew 16:17-19 - John 16:13… both assurances come from the same source, Jesus Christ. His will be done. Matthew 6:10.

Basically, my point is, you are right, Jesus gave certain men the authority to teach His Word, baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit… what is bound on earth is bound in heaven… but none of what they teach, or say would mean anything without the Holy Spirit. They need Him to teach, we need Him to understand.

Right. And by what authority do those people speak?

by the authority given to them by Jesus, through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Would that statement make a difference if I told you, the people I ask are members of the Catholic church I attend, including the priest?

 

[Gorgias]

and I’m not the origin of the fact the Holy Spirit leads us to God’s truth. It’s not based on my judgement, or comes from me, looking at the Bible and saying to myself “I’ve got it right!”.

Ahh… but it is your judgement that it’s actually happening, right? Literally, what you said is true: “[it] comes from me, looking at the Bible and saying to myself “I’ve got it right!””

Literally, that’s what you’re saying, isn’t it? You’ve read the Bible, you’ve seen the promises, and you say “yep … that’s what I’m doing!!!”

But… how do you know that this is what you’re doing? I mean… you might be doing it, but how do you know that? Only by your own personal subjective judgment that you’re right.

That’s what I am saying that Catholics aren’t doing. We aren’t saying “I know I’m right” or “Luther tells me that I’m right” or “R.C. Sproul tells me that I’m right”. Rather, Catholics say “Jesus gave the authority to the Church to speak in his name, and they say that I’m doing it right.” For me, that’s a whole lot better than saying that Luther, Sproul, or even I am the proper judge of action.

I just have to pay attention.

Right. So it’s all on you. That’s all I’ve been saying. Are you judging correctly? I don’t know. I hope so. But, what if you’re not? How would you know? Only by your own personal private interpretation of the Bible. Isn’t that precisely what we’re told not to do?

Gorgias:

Right. And by what authority do those people speak?

by the authority given to them by Jesus, through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Nope. Jesus doesn’t mention any of the people you ask, as being authoritative interpreters of His Gospel. Heck, for that matter, neither is your local parish priest. He’s only an ‘authoritative interpreter’ inasmuch as he follows the teachings of the Church down to the smallest part. If he gets it wrong, it’s wrong. It’s still the Church’s teachings – as the ones who received the authority and assurances of Christ – that have guarantees of leading us properly.

Would that statement make a difference if I told you, the people I ask are members of the Catholic church I attend, including the priest?

Nope. Not if they’re telling you what you’re telling me. 'Cause, that’s not what the Church teaches.

(And, I kinda wonder what you asked, and the way you asked it, and the context that you asked it in, that would lead to the answers that you’re asserting you’ve received.)

I mean… did you ask him “can I interpret the Bible on my own, so that I have an assurance that I’m correct and being saved?” 'Cause if they say ‘yes’… run screaming. The readings of the past coupla weeks – from 1st Corinthians – show us that St Paul himself said, “look… I don’t even judge myself, since I can’t.”

 

[annad347]

Who are you following?

Who is telling you you’re right? Who specifically is judging you, specifically telling you that what you are doing is right, the church… they are specifically telling you what you are doing is correct, prayers you say, action you take, thought you have, understanding of Gods Word… who is telling you, you are doing God’s will?

How do they know, what you are doing is correct, you are following God’s will?

I told you I wasn’t interpreting the Bible on my own, I use the Holy Spirit, when I read the bible to help me understand what I’m reading… I also attended 2 bible study class (before Corona Virus closed them down) and I ask questions.

Nope. Jesus doesn’t mention any of the people you ask, as being authoritative interpreters of His Gospel.

Who am I talking to specifically that you would know Jesus doesn’t mention them as being authoritative interpreters of His Gospel? Who do you speak too?

Ahh… but it is your judgement that it’s actually happening, right?

That what is happening? That I’m following the Holy Spirit to do God’s will? Who do you want me to ask if I’m following the Holy Spirit?

If I cannot trust God to lead me, who should I place my trust in to lead me to God?

 

[Gorgias]

Who are you following?

Jesus Christ, who gave us the Church to lead us and guide us. When I follow the teachings of the Church, I know I’m following the teachings of Jesus, because He founded the Church, gave it divine authority, and promise to protect it.

Who gave Luther divine authority and promised to protect all his statements?

I told you I wasn’t interpreting the Bible on my own, I use the Holy Spirit

The Bible doesn’t promise that individuals get divine protection when interpreting its contents. In fact, it says the exact opposite (2 Pet 1:20).

I also attend 2 bible study class

Who gave your Bible study leaders divine authority and a promise that their interpretations would always be correct?

Who am I talking to specifically that you would know Jesus doesn’t mention them as being authoritative interpreters of His Gospel?

I know who the Bible tells us that Jesus gave the authority to interpret and teach His Gospel: His Church, led by the apostles. That’s it. Period, full stop. If you’re not in that group, then you don’t have divine authority to teach and interpret, and you don’t have the promise of protection.

If you’re talking to someone outside that group, then I know it’s someone that Jesus didn’t give divine authority and protection to.

Who do you speak too?

I listen to the Church and its teachings.

That what is happening? That I’m following the Holy Spirit to do God’s will?

Yep.

Who do you want me to ask if I’m following the Holy Spirit?

If I cannot trust God to lead me, who should I place my trust to lead me to God?

The Catholic Church!!!

That’s the whole point!

Now… does that mean that the Church is perfect in all things? That individual people in the Church always have good prudential judgement? That they don’t sin? No, not at all: we’re human. But, the one protection that the Church does enjoy is the protection against teaching erroneously when she makes a doctrinal assertion on the faith and morals.

 

[annad347]

You are not answering my question.

Who are you following? Who is telling you, what you are doing is correct? Telling you, you are following Jesus divine authority? Following God’s will? Telling you, they are correct in teaching you doctrine about God? Telling you their doctrins are divinely inspired and infallible?

who are you following?

Because it sounded like you said Jesus.

 

[Gorgias]

You are not answering my question.

Sure I did, no?

Jesus gave the Church authority and protection and commanded it to teach. I follow the teaching of the Church, since it has Jesus’ authority to do so.

Because it sounded like you said Jesus.

Ultimately, every Christian will say this (I hope). But, when asked about particular doctrines they follow, we get divergent answers. So… if there’s a question about which denomination or church really follows Jesus’ teaching, I’m going to go with the one that Jesus actually gave teaching authority to, and not some denomination founded by a random guy 500 years or days or hours ago.

 

[annad347]

No you did not answer my question… I need a name.

Who are you following?

 

[Gorgias]

Who are you following?

I know I’m following Jesus because I’m following the teachings of the Church He founded and to which He gave authority.

(The response of anyone in any other denomination, then, is “I hope I’m following Jesus, because I’m following the teachings of someone to whom He never gave authority or promised would teach His gospel accurately.”)

 

[annad347]

You are following man… because Jesus gave authority to teach His Word to a man named Peter.

If you are following his doctrine, his understanding, his interpretations, his knowledge, his authority (even if given by Jesus) without the Holy Spirit you are following man.

If the Holy Spirit is not guiding…the one with authority to teach you. . you are following man…

And you cant say the Holy Spirit is guiding the one with authority because you said the Holy Spirit isnt guiding you. So how do you know the Spirit is guiding them.

Without the Holy Spirit, you are following the word of man.

FYI: I never said the Holy Spirit isnt guiding the Catholic church… I said if the Holy Spirit isnt guiding you then how do you know the Spirit is guiding them

 

[Gorgias]

You are following man… because Jesus gave authority to teach His Word to a man named Peter.

Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that I am following man. Then, I’d respond, “the man I’m following was given the mandate to teach by Jesus, along with the divine authority to do so, and the promise that his teaching wouldn’t be in error.”

Now… can you say that about the men you’re following? They don’t have the mandate; they don’t have the divine authority; and they haven’t been given the protection against teaching erroneously.

If you are following his doctrine, his understanding, his interpretations, his knowledge, his authority (even if given by Jesus) without the Holy Spirit you are following man.

I have the guarantee that the Holy Spirit is guiding the teaching of the Church, because Christ explicitly authorized and guaranteed it. Jesus didn’t make those guarantees to Luther, or Calvin, or the guy running the non-denom church down the street.

Is it possible that they’re following the Holy Spirit? Theoretically, yes. But, when they teach things that conflict with Catholic teaching, is it possible that the Holy Spirit is guiding those divergent teachings? Nope.

 

[Justin_Mary]

You are following man… because Jesus gave authority to teach His Word to a man named Peter

I see how you got there, but no. He’d be following Christ. In telling Peter to tend his flock & strengthen his brothers, Jesus is telling us to look to Peter if we’re ever in doubt.

FYI: I never said the Holy Spirit isnt guiding the Catholic church… I said if the Holy Spirit isnt guiding you then how do you know the Spirit is guiding them

I think you are asking good questions. How do we know we’re following the Holy Spirit?

For me it’s about understanding the Eucharist. The Catholic understanding of it today is the same as the Church’s understanding of it in the beginning, which we can prove by studying ancient liturgies & documents like the ECFs, & Dead Sea Scrolls, etc…

& you can read scripture with that understanding & Paul’s letters make sense in a certain way. Without that understanding you can read the same words & come up with a totally metaphorical understanding which has no basis in reality.

To me, when we get too metaphorical with our understanding I think we undermine the humanity of Christ. Just like removing Christ from the crucifix. His humanity is essential to understanding God. It’s essential to our salvation.

 

[annad347]

 

[annad347]

annad347:

Who do you want me to ask if I’m following the Holy Spirit?

If I cannot trust God to lead me, who should I place my trust to lead me to God?

The Catholic Church!!!

That’s the whole point!

I just noticed you’re reply to my question… with this I’m done, you lost me… and I don’t mean I don’t understand or confused… I mean I’m done.

I cannot be a part of any church that teaches their members if you cannot trust God to lead me, trust the church. No one can be trusted above God to lead us to God. If I can’t trust God then trusting the church is pointless. Without being able to place your trust in God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit you are lost in a way you can never be found.

I also can’t be a part of a church that doesn’t teach the importance of following the Holy Spirit. To teach it’s okay to just following someone who follows the Holy Spirit but not know how to follow the Holy Spirit directly. Or teach how to understand and recognize the Holy Spirit in yourself as well as others especially leaders of the church.

Jesus wanted us to have the Holy Spirit within us. The Holy Spirit is a gift given to us by Him when He returned to the Father.

He told His apostle (those He left in authority to teach) to baptize us in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit for a reason. He told them not to leave until they themselves received the Holy Spirit, so they can remember all to feed His sheep. The Holy Spirit leads us to God’s Truth, if any church does not teach importance of the Holy Spirit within us individually is not teaching the Word of God. If they teach to trust them without the Holy Spirit then I can’t be a part of that church.

Maybe that’s not what you meant when you said if I can’t trust God, I can trust the Catholic church, but there isn’t any other way you could have meant what you said… and 2 people agreed… besides you also said several times you’re aren’t following the Holy Spirit, so I think I’m done.

Now… can you say that about the men you’re following?

I’m not following man, I’m following God through the power of the Holy Spirit. I don’t follow Luther or anyone but God.

One way to know, I’m not following God through the power of the Holy Spirit is to listen to someone when they say I can trust them above God.

 

[Montrose]

I cannot be a part of any church that teaches their members if you cannot trust God to lead me, trust the church . No one can be trusted above God to lead us to God. If I can’t trust God then trusting the church is pointless. Without being able to place your trust in God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit you are lost in a way you can never be found.

Frankly, that is nonsense. Christ established the Catholic Church and entrusted it with the Deposit of Faith and gave it teaching authority in matters of faith and morals. The Holy Spirit leads the Church so when we follow the teachings of the Church we are following the teachings of God, not man. When we do this we know with absolute certainty that the Holy Spirit is within us.

 

[Justin_Mary]

I’m not following man, I’m following God through the power of the Holy Spirit. I don’t follow Luther or anyone but God.

One way to know, I’m not following God through the power of the Holy Spirit is to listen to someone when they say I can trust them above God.

If you are following the Holy Spirit he will lead you to the Church. The Catholic Church. The Holy Spirit will always lead you to truth. & there is only one truth, God, the source of all truth.

Jesus (God) establishes the Church to protect the truth, to teach the truth.

When we close our eyes & lift up our hands, truth is we don’t know what “spirit” guides us or leads us. We know it cannot be the Spirit of God if it leads us in 40,000 different directions. There is only one way, one truth, one life, one bread.

One God.

 

[annad347]

When we close our eyes & lift up our hands, truth is we don’t know what “spirit” guides us or leads us. We know it cannot be the Spirit of God if it leads us in 40,000 different directions. There is only one way, one truth, one life, one bread.

One God.

one God… absolutely correct… but I never said the Holy Spirit leads us in 40,000 ways… I said the Holy Spirit always leads us to God’s Truth. You are also correct when you say that we don’t always know where the Holy Spirit will lead us or why, but we can always trust God to lead us to Him.

@Montrose, you either didn’t read what @Gorgias or I wrote or you didn’t understand… your explanation has nothing to do with what was said… maybe you quoted the wrong post… did you mean to quote where I said you are following man – post 413.

.

 

[Gorgias]

I cannot be a part of any church that teaches their members if you cannot trust God to lead me, trust the church .

I’m not saying that God doesn’t lead us. I’m asking what seems (to me) to be a very reasonable question: “how do we, ourselves, know that we’re actually following Him ?” After all, as we’ve discussed, lots of people think they’re following God, but they’re doing (and believing) opposite things. All of them think they’re following God, and trusting that God is leading them. But they hold beliefs that conflict with each other! That doesn’t bother you? It strikes me as very, very serious. We all believe in and trust in God – but how do we know we’ve gotten it right?

 

[Gorgias]

One way to know, I’m not following God through the power of the Holy Spirit is to listen to someone when they say I can trust them above God.

You realize that you’ve just described Protestantism, right? Rather than following the Church that Christ Himself founded, they’re following the teachings of just “someone” 1500 years later who says “trust me above Christ and the Church He gave us”.