Quick question about The Catechism of the Catholic Church

[annad347]

Yes, Catholics write what they believe, Lutherans write what Lutherans believe. Goes without saying, no?

yes that goes without saying… they both write what they believe.

a couple of times people said the when a change in the Catechism is because the understanding what was written before was changed, but it wasn’t the Church that was in error but man’s understanding that was in error?

So how do I know what is man’s understanding is not really a misunderstanding, if what is written in the Catechism is not proven by Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition?

 

[phil19034]

What exactly is it and is it equal to the bible?

and please don’t post a lot of links to explain what the Catechism is… I could do that.

I want to hear how the Catechism equates to the bible by you, Catholics, who live breath and worship with the Catechism of the Catholic Church on a daily basis.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a REFERENCE guide of Catholic teaching. It does not contain everything, but it does contain most of the basics.

It is NOT on par with the Bible.

The Bible is the Word of God. The Catechism is a reference guide.

You could say, the Catechism is similar to a Bible concordance, but the Catechism is NOT equal the Bible.

As FYI - the Catechism was actually written with the intent for it to be used as a reference guide when writing other Catholic books. It wasn’t necessarily intended to be used the same way the Bible is. But since the Catechism was well organized, many lay Catholics (but not most) have bought one.

Finally, I don’t know a single Catholic “who lives breathes and worships with the Catechism.” It is NOT a prayer book. It’s not Scripture.

However, with that said, I have heard a Catholic Cardinal talk about praying while reading the Catechism. But he didn’t mean it the same way as you pray while reading the Bible. He wasn’t talking about doing Lectio Divina with the Catechism. He simply meant that it’s important to pray to God for understanding and to strengthen our love for God & ask Him to strengthen our faith.

I hope this helps.

 

[annad347]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a REFERENCE guide of Catholic teaching. It does not contain everything, but it does contain most of the basics.

The Catechism is a reference book created by a group of smart people’s understanding of what the Bible is saying… their opinion of what that understanding in the Bible is suppose to mean?

The main reason I asked my original question is because, like I said, when I ask a question sometimes the answer given can only be found in the Catechism… that’s a big different then if the answer given is a biblical verse…right?

 

[BartholomewB]

The difference is that you’ll find things in the Catechism that are not in the Bible. There are Catholic beliefs that extend beyond what is in the Bible. These are duly recorded in the Catechism. But, as I said earlier, I don’t think you’ll find anything in the Catechism that contradicts the Bible.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a REFERENCE guide of Catholic teaching. It does not contain everything, but it does contain most of the basics.

The Catechism is a reference book created by a group of smart people’s understanding of what the Bible is saying… their opinion of what that understanding in the Bible is suppose to mean?

No, it’s not anyone’s opinion. It’s the official teaching & position of the Catholic Church. The Catechism does not contain anyone’s personal opinions.

 

[phil19034]

The main reason I asked my original question is because, like I said, when I ask a question sometimes the answer given can only be found in the Catechism… that’s a big different then if the answer given is a biblical verse…right?

not sure what you mean by this?

 

[annad347]

There are Catholic beliefs that extend beyond what is in the Bible. These are duly recorded in the Catechism. But, as I said earlier, I don’t think you’ll find anything in the Catechism that contradicts the Bible.

Nothing in the Catechism contradicts from Bible, okay, that’s good.

What do you mean there are things in the Catechism that goes beyond what is recorded in the Bible? Sacred Traditions?

No, it’s not anyone’s opinion. It’s the official teaching & position of the Catholic Church. The Catechism does not contain anyone’s personal opinions.

Well not the stuff that’s about how the roles of people in the Catholic church, how church is run… the purpose of traditions, what they are… those things aren’t opinions, those are rules for the church.

Im talking about biblical passages. The meaning/understanding/explanation of a specific biblical passages in the Catechism would be the meaning/understanding/explanation by group of very important people? Wouldn’t that be their opinion of that specific passage?

not sure what you mean by this?

If the answer to my question can be found in the Bible, I know its infallible. If the answer is only found in the Catechism without a biblical reference is it still infallible?

 

[phil19034]

Im talking about biblical passages. The meaning/understanding/explanation of a specific biblical passages in the Catechism would be the meaning/understanding/explanation by group of very important people? Wouldn’t that be their opinion of that specific passage?

No opinions are given. Only official teaching - even when it comes to understanding a Bible passage.

NOW: some passages have more than one meaning, and the Catechism may or may not discuss them all - really depends on what the paragraph is discussing.

Catechism is not a Bible study, so it really doesn’t discuss Bible verses in that way. Rather, it typically uses Bible verses as backup for explaining Church teaching.

 

[phil19034]

If the answer to my question can be found in the Bible, I know its infallible. If the answer is only found in the Catechism without a biblical reference is it still infallible?

Depends. The Catechism itself is not an infallible document. However, it discusses infallible teachings.

When the Catechism is discussing Dogma & Doctrine, the subject matter is infallible teaching. However, the explanation the Catechism uses may or may not be infallible.

Furthermore, when the Catechism discusses Church Disciplines (which can be changed) the subject matter may or may not be infallible teaching.

I hope I’m making sense.

 

[BartholomewB]

What do you mean there are things in the Catechism that goes beyond what is recorded in the Bible? Sacred Traditions?

Please see my post #30, where I wrote:

the CCC also contains a great deal of information that is not in the Bible, because it draws on the work of theologians who explained and interpreted the teachings of the Christian religion, long after all the books in the Bible had been written.

@annad347, try and get hold of a copy of the Catechism and look through it. You will quickly and easily find all your questions answered!

 

[Gorgias]

so now my question is “Is the Catechism equal to the Bible?”

No. It’s a book that contains some infallible teachings, but not everything in it is taught infallibly. It’s a book that quotes some of the Bible (which we’d consider to be ‘inerrant’), but it, itself, isn’t claimed to be inspired or inerrant.

I know you said that you don’t want quotes from the catechism itself, but it really does explain the Catholic view on how the Church views inspiration / teachings / Scripture / doctrine.

what exactly is it?
How is it suppose to be used?

Basically, as Catholics, we recognize that Jesus commanded the Apostles to teach the world what He’d taught them. The authority lies with the Apostles, and not with the method of teaching. At a certain point, they decided to write down what they’d been teaching. They didn’t stop teaching it, though: the written word was used, primarily, in liturgy. Paul speaks to the manner of spreading Jesus’ word: “how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? … Thus faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.”

Paul doesn’t say “you learn Christ’s message by reading what I’ve written.” He preaches.

That preaching doesn’t disappear, either: not once the canon of Scripture is becoming established, and not when the original Apostles are dead and gone. The teaching authority is passed down to their successors. That teaching authority remains with us, even today, in the successors of the apostles!

So, the catechism is the Church’s way to summarize what the teaching is. Moreover, what usually gets quoted to you, is quoted from the “Catechism of the Catholic Church” – the ‘green book’. And, you know what its purpose is? It’s a reference for those who are putting together their own local catechisms. It’s meant for bishops, priests, and teachers. (But, it’s also very handy for lay readers!) In a sense, it’s a reference manual. It exists in order to be a valuable resource for those who are teaching others.

When something is in the Catechism but not in the Bible which is correct?

Your question presumes that what is in the Catechism conflicts with the Bible. It doesn’t.

Is everything in the Catechism in the Bible?

Everything in the Catechism is in the teaching of Jesus. Some of the teaching of Jesus is in the Bible.

sometimes when I ask a question the answer that’s given to me is from the Catechism but not necessarily in the Bible, I don’t understand that?

Where in the Bible does it say that everything is in the Bible?

 

[Gorgias]

I understand what it is and how I should use The Word of God

OK… so help us understand how you understand the Bible and how it should be used…!

The Catechism is meant to TEACH Catholics about what’s IN the Bible.

Not just what’s in the Bible, but what’s in the teaching of Christ. Even the Gospels tell us that not all that Christ taught is in the Bible!

so then I guess my next question would be is Sacred Tradition equal to Sacred Scripture?

That question is answered explicitly in the catechism! See its value now? You can go to the catechism to get all sorts of answers to questions about Catholic teaching!

Here’s the answer:

“In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority.” Indeed, “the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time.”

This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, “the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes.”

The Bible and Tradition are infallible.

The Bible is inerrant. Apostolic teaching on faith and morals is infallibly stated.

 

[Gorgias]

The meaning/understanding/explanation of a specific biblical passages in the Catechism would be the meaning/understanding/explanation by group of very important people? Wouldn’t that be their opinion of that specific passage?

Except that this “group of very important people” were given authority by Christ to teach. It’s not just opinion. It’s kind of like saying that you and I could read a case that’s going to be ruled on by the Supreme Court, and you and I could talk about our opinions on the case. Those opinions, though, don’t have any standing. All that matters is what the authorities (in this context, the Supreme Court) says. Their expressions on the matter become binding.

 

[Dovekin]

It’s kind of like saying that you and I could read a case that’s going to be ruled on by the Supreme Court, and you and I could talk about our opinions on the case. Those opinions, though, don’t have any standing. All that matters is what the authorities (in this context, the Supreme Court) says. Their expressions on the matter become binding.

Their expressions usually come in the form of Opinions, which matches the meaning @annad347 was using.

Not the best example for your point.

 

[Gorgias]

Their expressions usually come in the form of Opinions, which matches the meaning @annad347 was using.

Not the best example for your point.

Yeah, they call their rulings “opinions”. Yet, they’re authoritative, and so, they’re different than anyone else’s ‘opinion’.

 

[annad347]

Catechism is not a Bible study, so it really doesn’t discuss Bible verses in that way. Rather, it typically uses Bible verses as backup for explaining Church teaching.
~~
When the Catechism is discussing Dogma & Doctrine, the subject matter is infallible teaching. However, the explanation the Catechism uses may or may not be infallible.

Furthermore, when the Catechism discusses Church Disciplines (which can be changed) the subject matter may or may not be infallible teaching.

Yes, that helps… it makes sense.

Your question presumes that what is in the Catechism conflicts with the Bible. It doesn’t

I don’t presume anything… I ask.

The Catechism cannot conflict with the Bible if what’s in the Catechism is not written in the Bible.

phil19034 (post 50): Catechism is not a Bible study… it uses Bible verses as backup for explaining Church teaching.

BartholomewB (post 30): the CCC also contains a great deal of information that is not in the Bible, because it draws on the work of theologians who explained and interpreted the teachings of the Christian religion…

crazy example If the Catechism says doing 10 jumping jacks before entering the confessional will help me focus on my sins, more capable of confessing better to receive absolution and grace… but it’s not back up with a Bible verse.

That’s what I asking about, if the Catechism says something, but its not back up with a Bible verse. then what? Do I accept it as the true, as something that should be done to receive grace because its written in the Catechism?

OK… so help us understand how you understand the Bible and how it should be used…!

My mom told me once to trust the Bible is to trust God. I trust my mom and God.

I’m not telling anyone how the Bible should be used; I can tell you how I use the Bible.

Back to crazy example someone tells me about the 10 jumping jacks, then I’d want to see the Bible verse that backs that up… then I know I better start jumping before confessing.

@Gorgias… I never said everything is in the Bible, but what is in there is the truth.

 

[phil19034]

crazy example If the Catechism says doing 10 jumping jacks before entering the confessional will help me focus on my sins, more capable of confessing better to receive absolution and grace… but it’s not back up with a Bible verse.

That’s what I mean. If the Catechism says something is as it should be, but its not back up with a Bible verse then what? Do I have to accept it as the true, as something that should be done to receive grace?

OK - if the Catechism says something, then 99 out of 100 times, it should be done/believed

Now, there are few things in there that are relative. The death penalty is a perfect example.

The use of the death penalty is not inhearity evil or sinful (if properly carried out). Reason, it provides a form of justice and is a deterrent to crime. Plus, historically, due to living conditions of prisons in ancient times, death was often more more merciful punishment. Finally, when one knew the date and time of his own death, it allowed him the opportunity to confess & make peace with God.

However, as prisons have become safer (at least in terms of disease), some of the reasons for the death penalty have disappeared as it is now more than possible to sentence someone to 20+ years or life in prison.

Therefore, the Church has shifted away from the death penalty in order to favor life in prison or longer term punishments instead of death. Pope Francis has even gone as far as saying that in modern society, the death penalty is inadmissible.

Pope Francis changed paragraph 2267 during the Summer of 2018 from:

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.”

to:

(cont.)

 

[phil19034]

(cont)

2267. Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."68

Though, the old version is still what’s on the Vatican’s website as of today (May 11, 2020)

Point is: if a Catholic prefers John Paul II’s position or thinks the Death Penalty is useful in preventing crime, then he’s free to disagree PROVIDED that he prays on it and truly tries to understand the Church’s position on the non-dogmatic position.

I hope this makes sense.

 

[BartholomewB]

That’s what I asking about, if the Catechism says something, but its not back up with a Bible verse. then what? Do I accept it as the true, as something that should be done to receive grace because its written in the Catechism?

If you would pick up a copy of the Catechism, turn over the pages, read a paragraph here and there and look at the footnotes, everything would become clear to you. All your questions would be answered in an instant.

 

[Dovekin]

My mom told me once to trust the Bible is to trust God. I trust my mom and God.
Back to crazy example someone tells me about the 10 jumping jacks, then I’d want to see the Bible verse that backs that up… then I know I better start jumping before confessing.

The Catechism was issued by an authority we, as Catholics, trust. It is not the same level of trust as we place in the Bible, but it is a trust in God’s appointed ministers. They are mostly reliable.

But God is always more reliable. We are taught to pray with and to God, and to inform our understanding with what the Church teaches. We make practical judgments based on this ongoing relationship with God. If I saw an instruction about 10 jumping jacks, I would recognize it as pious advice rather than as something that obliges me. If my confessor tells me to do 10 jumping jacks, that would be an obligation; but the Catechism cannot do that. We take what is taught and apply it according to our conscience.