Quick question about The Catechism of the Catholic Church

[Gorgias]

I kind of think those are some very powerful instructions. Turn your life… get ready for the Lord.

There was a bit of misdirection there, Anna. The original assertion was that these are “instructions for worship.” When I pointed out that they weren’t, the answer came back, “they’re instructions, all right!”

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But not instructions for worship, which was the original claim!

John the Baptist’s message was “merely” to Obey the Son of God?

Pretty much:

John [the] Baptist appeared in the desert proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. … And this is what he proclaimed: “One mightier than I is coming after me. I am not worthy to stoop and loosen the thongs of his sandals. I have baptized you with water; he will baptize you with the holy Spirit.” (Mk 1:4, 8)

If you see anything else in his message, please cite it for us! (Certainly there aren’t any “instructions for worship” in “the preaching of John the Baptist”, as had been claimed.)

Differing Christian ‘sects’ came about through the work of Satan

Ahh, something we can agree on! (And yes… the work of Satan has led to differing Christians sects outside the Church!)

so if its is the works of Satan, its not a christian ‘sect’ that was built on the foundation of Jesus Christ, that will teach you the truth of Jesus Christ or the truth of God.

Agreed!

You will not be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. You will not be doing anything that will praise or glorify God.

I would nuance that by saying that despite the ills of division and discord in the Church and her separated brethren, nevertheless the Spirit continues to work in our “house divided”!

Nope. God is never behind Sin

Ahh, but even so, He uses all things for good!

 

[EndTimes]

EndTimes:

John the Baptist’s message was “merely” to Obey the Son of God?

You don’t think that’s important instructions?

No because it reveals nothing of what John had to say…

And ‘merely’? LIke, C’,mon.

 

[Dovekin]

The living God is truth that is the pillar and foundation of the Church… the Bible is the Word of God, which tells us how God wants us to worship in His Church.

This is the original claim, which @Gorgias chose to dispute. I still have not seen his rationale for saying that. My guess is that he understands “instructions for worship” as machine level programming, rather than a higher level language as you and I conceive It.

But that is just a guess on my part. He just asserts his position without explaining, as if we should just adopt his definition of instruction. I have not pursued that so the conversation lost some focus. Obey the Son of God is an instruction to worship, but it is getting overlaid with other side issues.

 

[EndTimes]

Pretty much:

“merely”

No. I prefer to know Everything about John the Baptist.

 

[annad347]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But not instructions for worship , which was the original claim!

Bible Gateway quote of the day… 1 Thessalonians 5:11-22 instructions for us to help us understand God’s will.

Followed by a blessing. 1 Thessalonians 5:23-28

I forgot how did we get on this path of finding instructions in the Bible?

Ahh, something we can agree on! (And yes… the work of Satan has led to differing Christians sects outside the Church!)

or a needed part of God’s plan to make changes of the inside His chosen church. Kind of like what did Judas was evil, but we also learned his betrayal was a needed part of God’s plan.

“merely”

merely is too small of a word to describe John the Baptist’s instructions for us.

No. I prefer to know Everything about John the Baptist.

Repent, get right with the Lord… what more do we need to know?

 

[Gorgias]

annad347:

The living God is truth that is the pillar and foundation of the Church… the Bible is the Word of God, which tells us how God wants us to worship in His Church.

This is the original claim, which @Gorgias chose to dispute.

Actually, I challenged this claim of yours:

[1 Cor 11:23 and Luke 22:17,19, as instructions for worship] are filled out with he Beatitudes, the Prodigal Son, the preaching of John the Baptist, etc. instead of the rubrics we have come to expect.

So, although I can see where you’re claiming the 1 Cor 11 and Luke 22 references (although I would label these “narrative” and not “rubric”), I raised the objection that the teachings of John the Baptist aren’t “instructions for worship.” Instructions? Sure… you can make that claim. But… “instructions for worship”? Hardly.

My guess is that he understands “instructions for worship” as machine level programming, rather than a higher level language as you and I conceive It.

Umm… are you a programmer? “Machine language programming” and “higher-level languages” have one-to-one correspondence.

He just asserts his position without explaining, as if we should just adopt his definition of instruction.

I kinda did, in the post to which you responded and later, as well. I’m guessing you just don’t appreciate being contradicted. It’s all good. (I still think you’re stretching it quite a bit, though, to call these other passages “instructions for worship”.)

And, to address your point here, the Scripture you’re twisting names the Church as the pillar and foundation. I can see how you don’t want to admit that, either, as it were. Nevertheless, it’s right there in black-and-white…

Obey the Son of God is an instruction to worship, but it is getting overlaid with other side issues.

Erm… no. It’s an instruction, alright, but not an “instruction to worship.” Unless you have a novel definition of “worship”…

 

[Dovekin]

Actually, we don’t see instructions for Christian worship in the Bible!

But my remark was a comment on this. Are you not disputing what @annad347 said? I think she was right.

“I demand mercy, and not sacrifice.” is an instruction for worship. “Proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins” is instructing how to worship. Worship without conversion and devotion is not Christian worship, no matter how detailed the rubrics are or how precisely they are fulfilled.

Narrative can be a way to instruct, to teach rubrics, etc.

There is not a one to one correspondence between machine language and a higher level language. Machine language instruction can be part of many different higher level commands. Higher level commands generally can be restated as specific machine language instructions, but it is harder to go the opposite way. (1.Sum A-E to get F. is higher level version of 2.Add A and B, 3.to result add C… 6.place result at F. 1 always implies 2-6. 2 does not always imply 1.) Anyway, that is the imbalance I am pointing to as an analogy for distinguishing liturgical instruction from rubrics.

Don’t you believe Baptism is a way of worshipping God?

 

[Gorgias]

“I demand mercy, and not sacrifice.” is an instruction for worship.

I would disagree there. It doesn’t tell you how to worship, which is what an instruction is, don’t you think?

“Proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins” is instructing how to worship.

That was John’s baptism, and not Jesus’. The former isn’t a sacrament, and doesn’t save; the latter does. Now… Jesus does give instructions for this sacrament – but you find them in Matthew 28:19 (and not Matthew 3).

Narrative can be a way to instruct, to teach rubrics, etc.

I think I would nuance this by saying that narratives can give rise to instructions and rubrics, but aren’t necessarily rubrics per se.

There is not a one to one correspondence between machine language and a higher level language.

Not on a per-instruction basis, of course, since ML is written at a much lower level. Still, you can go back-and-forth between the two – after all, if you couldn’t, then HLLs wouldn’t be well-formed (and you wouldn’t be able to write a compiler for them)!

Don’t you believe Baptism is a way of worshipping God?

I would say that baptism is a means of receiving grace.

 

[annad347]

I think I understand what @Gorgias is asking for.

Not so much instructions from God on how to worship Him, but instructions on the forms, ways used in the church to worship Him correctly… right?

Like which prayers to use, scriptures, when to stand, kneel… why we a first reading, second reading, a reading form psalms then a reading from the Gospel… are those the instructions for worship in the church, you are referring too that are not in the Bible?

sorry for the major delay in reply.

 

[Gorgias]

I think I understand what @Gorgias is asking for.

Not so much instructions from God on how to worship Him, but instructions on the forms, ways used in the church to worship Him

Right. That’s what you had claimed – that these things were instructions on “how God wants us to worship”. That’s what @Dovekin claimed, too, that these are “instructions for worship”. They’re instructive, of course… but they don’t tell us how to worship. In fact, those “instructions for worship” were communicated alright… but not in Scripture! (Yeah, I know – them’s fighting words to Protestants, who see Scripture exactly as “Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth”! )

sorry for the major delay in reply.

All good!

It’s been a busy few weeks!

 

[Dovekin]

They’re instructive , of course… but they don’t tell us how to worship.

And I still disagree. Rubrics are not instructions for worship, they are instructions for performing a ritual. The ritual becomes worship when it fulfills the instructions from Scripture.

A ritual becomes worship when it offers mercy, not sacrifice. Immersion in water becomes worship when the person repents and turns toward God. These are what describes worship, not a detailed rubricism.

That was my point all along, that scripture talks about how to worship. Rubrics do not. Instructions on where to put which hand when are not how to worship. Mercy is how to worship.

 

[tafan2]

How to use it? Normally by the index, which is quite detailed and will take you to specific paragraphs, or by the table of contents. It’s used as a reference book to answer the question: what does the Church teach about X?"

 

[annad347]

what does the Church teach about X?"

what is X?

 

[annad347]

And I still disagree. Rubrics are not instructions for worship, they are instructions for performing a ritual. The ritual becomes worship when it fulfills the instructions from Scripture.

that’s what @gorgias means, I said the bible gives instructions on how to worship in church, but I’m guessing those are called Rubrics.

I believe if you never entered a church, all you had was the Bible, once you accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you received the Holy Spirit, you’ll learn how to worship God… then where 2-3 gathered in His name will be in church, learning how to worship God using the Bible with the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[tafan2]

A place holder suggesting an issue you are seeking an answer to.

 

[annad347]

Oh okay I got ya…

 

[Gorgias]

And I still disagree. Rubrics are not instructions for worship, they are instructions for performing a ritual. The ritual becomes worship when it fulfills the instructions from Scripture.

I think that this seems sensible on the surface, but I think that your assertions here actually paint you into a corner.

I have a few questions for you, if you don’t mind:

• if “ritual becomes worship when it fulfills the instructions from Scripture”, then you have a verse of Scripture that says this… right?
  • Mind you, I’m not asking for instances in which ritual is not worship pleasing to God – oh goodness, there are many in the Bible! No… I’m asking for a verse which provides this instruction to you about when ritual always becomes worship.

A ritual becomes worship when it offers mercy, not sacrifice. Immersion in water becomes worship when the person repents and turns toward God. These are what describes worship, not a detailed rubricism.

I hear you railing against “rubricism”. And, I get it. For certain subsets of Protestants, that’s the rallying cry. Yet, it doesn’t tell the whole story. When you “offer mercy, not sacrifice”, have you “worshipped”? When you “repent and turn to God” – outside of the sacrament of baptism – have you “worshipped”? Or have you only been ‘merciful’ or ‘repentant’?

The Bible answers pretty clearly: there are those who cry “Lord, Lord!” and who have done acts of mercy in Jesus’ name… to whom Jesus will reply “sorry… I don’t know who you are.” There are those who have repented, but who haven’t been baptized sacramentally, and the Scriptural response is “holy cow! We’ve got to get you baptized properly!” before they receive the Spirit.

The point of Scripture isn’t to be a manual of a rule of life. I get it that many Protestants think it is. A close look at the Bible – and the life of the Church, expressed Scripturally and extra-Scripturally – shows us that this isn’t what the early Church understood. Their understanding was wholly Catholic in its belief, and it’s truly distressing that some have deviated from that path.

Instructions on where to put which hand when are not how to worship.

Was was the intent of Leviticus, then? They aren’t instructions on worship?

Mercy is how to worship.

Many have been merciful… and have not worshipped.

 

[Gorgias]

I believe if you never entered a church, all you had was the Bible, once you accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you received the Holy Spirit, you’ll learn how to worship God

Nope. Please re-read Acts 19. They didn’t receive the Holy Spirit until they were properly baptized.

In addition, Jesus never says that salvation is obtained through reading a Bible and “accepting him”. In fact, he says that many who have heard His teaching and “accepted it” will hear “depart from me; I never knew you.”

 

[annad347]

Nope. Please re-read Acts 19. They didn’t receive the Holy Spirit until they were properly baptized.

I said if all you had was the bible, never entered a church… the church you have is where 2 or 3 gathered in God’s name, you would then learn upon reading that chapter in Acts is that you need to be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. You would learn there was a time in history, people didn’t know that.

You would learn that John’s baptize cleansed them of sin, but when they were baptized in the name of Jesus they would be filled with the Holy Spirit… They would have read that way before they got to Acts.

That chapter was people about people who were worshiping by word of mouth, they were learning about something they didn’t know until they meet Paul, they didn’t have the Bible… different situation.

In addition, Jesus never says that salvation is obtained through reading a Bible and “accepting him”. In fact, he says that many who have heard His teaching and “accepted it” will hear “depart from me; I never knew you.”

You are right… but He actually said, no one gets to the Father except through me, who ever believe in me shall have ever lasting life. So yes there is more too it then just reading the Bible… but accepting Him is a huge start. And when He said depart from me, I don’t know you, didn’t just mean He didn’t know you… there was more too it then that as well.

IF, all you had was the Bible, you would have the instructions on how to worship God. You and I are blessed to have more then just the Bible to learn how to worship God… but if the Bible was all you had, you would be able to learn how to worship God.

 

[Gorgias]

I said if all you had was the bible, never entered a church… the church you have is where 2 or 3 gathered in God’s name, you would then learn upon reading that chapter in Acts is that you need to be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. You would learn there was a time in history, people didn’t know that.

You would learn that John’s baptize cleansed them of sin, but when they were baptized in the name of Jesus they would be filled with the Holy Spirit… They would have read that way before they got to Acts.

That chapter was people about people who were worshiping by word of mouth, they were learning about something they didn’t know until they meet Paul, they didn’t have the Bible… different situation.

OK… so let’s talk about someone who only had the Scriptures, then: the Ethiopian eunoch. He’s in exactly the situation you propose: only Scripture. What’s his response? “How can I understand what I’m reading, unless someone explains it to me?”

You see… what brings him to salvation isn’t reading Scripture, but receiving the apostolic teaching of the Church (as conveyed by a cleric of the Church). That reception of preaching – working on the grace God gave him – is what drove him to ask for the grace of the sacraments. It’s not “Bible”, in the case in Scripture (and your example): it’s “the teaching of the Church”.

if the Bible was all you had, you would be able to learn how to worship God.

We have the example of folks who claim “all I have is the Bible”. The results aren’t that convincing.