Quick question about The Catechism of the Catholic Church

[annad347]

“How can I understand what I’m reading, unless someone explains it to me?”

The same way you learn to understand God when no one is around to explain Him to you… you pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit. John 16:13

I’m not saying other people aren’t necesseary to learn how to worship God. I’m not dismissing the need for apostolic teaching, leaders of the church, priest… or all the tools(doctorins, scirptures, catechism) we have who guide us to God through the power of the Holy Spirit.

I’m just saying, if ALL you have is the Bible you can learn how to worship God. It wouldn’t be easy, it might take a long time to understand, because it would take a lot of hope, faith and prayer to understand what you are reading… but its not impossible.

Maybe the Ethiopian eunoch, didn’t have the Holy Spirit in him. Maybe he didn’t realize he needed the Holy Spirit to understand Isaiah or maybe God wanted to use Philip to help him. Maybe God wanted the Ethiopian to be baptized so used Philip to have it done.

You see… what brings him to salvation isn’t reading Scripture , but receiving the apostolic teaching of the Church (as conveyed by a cleric of the Church). That reception of preaching – working on the grace God gave him – is what drove him to ask for the grace of the sacraments. It’s not “Bible”, in the case in Scripture (and your example): it’s “the teaching of the Church”.

It is if the Bible is the only thing given to me by God.

You are blessed that God did not chose that path for you. God gave you apostolic teaching of the Church. God gave you the Catholic Church to come to Him. God blessed you with many thing to use to learn about Him. You are blessed.

I am too, with as many questions I have about being Catholic and Lutheran, Thank God I have the internet.

but I wouldn’t dismiss God’s power to also bless someone with ability to learn how to worship Him, if all all they have is the Bible?

Forget what you know, forget what you learned, forget the fact that you live where you have the opportunities that you have… even forget you know how the Bible came into existence. If 2-3 people, were on an island… on a mountain top… in the middle of the woods… with a Bible, no other book, just the Bible. You don’t think God would use the Holy Spirit to get those people to read that Bible to learn how to worship Him and they would be able too?

Like I said, it wouldn’t be easy, it would most likely take a lot of reading over and over the same lines… but with God all things are possible.

 

[Dovekin]

I hear you railing against “rubricism”

I am not railing against rubricism. Rubrics are important. But they are not “instructions for worship” in the same way that Scripture provides instruction. Being merciful and turning to God are both worship whenever they happen. And they are what make any ritual gathering a worship of God. Fulfillment of rubrics is not necessarily enough.

The Bible answers pretty clearly: there are those who cry “Lord, Lord!” and who have done acts of mercy in Jesus’ name… to whom Jesus will reply “sorry… I don’t know who you are.”

Yes, fulfillment of rubrics is not enough. That is what I am saying. I cannot even imagine how you have turned this upside down. Lumen gentium echoes this when it says the person without love is in the Church but “only in a “bodily” manner and not “in his heart.”” It is not the exterior actions, as described by rubrics, that makes a ritual an act of worship; it is what happens in the heart.

Their understanding was wholly Catholic in its belief, and it’s truly distressing that some have deviated from that path.

I certainly agree with this, though I suspect you and I have very different of what “wholly Catholic” means.

God does not reject the broken, humble heart. Mercy is always pleasing to God, and an act of worshipping the merciful God.

 

[aneish8]

Mathew 16 : 18,19 : Jesus to Saint Peter( 1st Pope of catholic church) I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church ( Catholic church ) , and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it( Most peaceful place on earth ) . I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven ( Catechism of the catholic church ).

 

[Gorgias]

The same way you learn to understand God when no one is around to explain Him to you… you pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit.

And yet, that’s not what Deacon Philip did. In Scripture.

I’m just saying, if ALL you have is the Bible you can learn how to worship God. It wouldn’t be easy, it might take a long time to understand, because it would take a lot of hope, faith and prayer to understand what you are reading… but its not impossible.

“Not impossible” isn’t exactly an encouraging way to describe the efficacy of what you suggest, is it?

Maybe the Ethiopian eunoch, didn’t have the Holy Spirit in him. Maybe he didn’t realize he needed the Holy Spirit to understand Isaiah or maybe God wanted to use Philip to help him. Maybe God wanted the Ethiopian to be baptized so used Philip to have it done.

And maybe – just maybe! – God showed us in Scripture what His desire was: we learn what He wishes for us by providing Apostolic Teaching and Sacraments.

If 2-3 people, were on an island… on a mountain top… in the middle of the woods… with a Bible, no other book, just the Bible. You don’t think God would use the Holy Spirit to get those people to read that Bible to learn how to worship Him

Nope. 'Cause that’s not what He taught us. And that’s not what Jesus commanded, either. He commanded preaching, and sacrament, and Church. NOWHERE do we see “just read the book and you’ll be good.” If you can find something in Scripture that makes that claim, I’d be interested in seeing it. If you can’t… then that claim is just a “tradition of man”.

 

[annad347]

And yet, that’s not what Deacon Philip did. In Scripture.

who?

“Not impossible” isn’t exactly an encouraging way to describe the efficacy of what you suggest, is it?

Teaching that God has limits is better?

And maybe – just maybe! – God showed us in Scripture what His desire was: we learn what He wishes for us by providing Apostolic Teaching and Sacraments

You’re still thinking like someone who has more then the Bible, to teach you about God. If all you have is the Bible, how would you learn about Sacraments or Apostolic Teaching?

You’d learn about the Apostles, you’ll learn about being baptize, you learn about the last supper of Christ… but you wouldn’t know they are called Apostolic Teachings or Sacraments because I don’t think those word are in the the Bible… are they? If they are then you’d learn about them?

If the ONLY thing on this planet you have was the Bible… if there was no body else around except the Bible… if you never heard the words Sacraments, Catechism, Doctrine, Dogma or any specific word or tool that teaching you about God but is not in the Bible… you just have the Bible, you can learn how to worship God.

It wouldn’t be easy, you would probably have to read it over and over again to understand it, but it is possible.

You wouldn’t learn about Sacred Tradition because I don’t think that’s in the Bible either… you would just be limited to what’s in the Bible.

Now you’re next question should really be, would you believe anything you read… if all you had was the Bible. I believe you would, the moment you allow God to give you a new heart filled with the Holy Spirit… not only would you believe everything you read, but you understand, trust and love what you read… because of the Holy Spirit with-in you.

Not that I’m suggesting we do that, why limit a person in learning how to worship God if you don’t have too… I’m just saying you can.

 

[Justin_Mary]

Now you’re next question should really be, would you believe anything you read… if all you had was the Bible. I believe you would, the moment you allow God to give you a new heart filled with the Holy Spirit… not only would you believe everything you read, but you understand, trust and love what you read… because of the Holy Spirit with-in you.

In theory, yes. In practice, not so much.

We don’t want to admit it, but a big problem with this, is us… not God. Our love of self is bigger & stronger than we care to admit. We’ll read scripture and believe it to mean something totally different from what it means & implement that understanding to reinforce false truths.

Evidence of this is the many Christian denominations we see today. Every one of them sure they interpret scripture correctly.

God can, yes. But He doesn’t. He allows our free will to remain intact. Which is why He gave us the Church.

But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

And yet, that’s not what Deacon Philip did. In Scripture.

who?

Philip the deacon! In Acts 8, we see him preaching the word, and then meeting up with the court official from Ethopia. According to the way you describe things, Philip should’ve just said, “meh… he’s got the Scriptures! He’ll figure it out on his own!”… but that’s not at all what Philip does! He provides teaching in the Apostolic Tradition, and then offers the sacraments of the Church!

So, even in Scripture, we see that the answer isn’t “hand 'em a Bible and let 'em figure it out on their own”!

annad347:

“Not impossible” isn’t exactly an encouraging way to describe the efficacy of what you suggest, is it?

Teaching that God has limits is better?

LOL! Of course not. Yet, that’s not what it teaches: it teaches us that we have limits, not God!

You’re still thinking like someone who has more then the Bible, to teach you about God. If all you have is the Bible, how would you learn about Sacraments or Apostolic Teaching?

From a practical standpoint: who in the world has only a Bible, and is bereft of people to teach them ???

It seems that you’re setting up an impossible scenario, and then attempting to use it to defend an otherwise indefensible assertion!

If the ONLY thing on this planet you have was the Bible… if there was no body else around except the Bible… if you never heard the words Sacraments, Catechism, Doctrine, Dogma or any specific word or tool that teaching you about God but is not in the Bible… you just have the Bible, you can learn how to worship God.

Not in the way God asks for it and Jesus enables it…

It wouldn’t be easy, you would probably have to read it over and over again to understand it, but it is possible.

That is a perspective that began to be expressed early on in the Holyness Movement in the U.S. in the 1800s, if memory serves. The idea was “pretend that you have nothing but a Bible, and you’ve never seen it before, and you’ve never heard about Christianity before; then, interpret it as if ‘from scratch’.” It didn’t fare well, at least in terms of the fact that it gave rise to doctrines that deviate from much of Christianity! In other words, it led to inaccurate understanding, not good understanding.

You wouldn’t learn about Sacred Tradition because I don’t think that’s in the Bible either… you would just be limited to what’s in the Bible.

Umm… the Acts of the Apostles and all of the Epistles are themselves descriptions and representations of Apostolic Tradition !!!

Not that I’m suggesting we do that, why limit a person in learning how to worship God if you don’t have too… I’m just saying you can.

Without any kind of example or substantiation that it’s true, though. It’s just a personal assertion of a bald claim!

 

[annad347]

I’m starting to think you all are not understanding what I’m saying.

IF the only thing you have is the Bible, you can learn how to worship God.

IF the Bible you are reading says you need more then the Bible to learn how to worship God, wouldn’t you be learning from the Bible that you need more then just the Bible to learn how to worship God?

I never said you didn’t need other people, you didn’t need other sources. God wants us to help each other, to teach each other, to pray with each other, to look after each other… so you need other people.

Yes, you might misunderstand and question everything you are reading, which is why you should pray for guidance and understanding in everything you read, that’s where the Holy Spirit comes to play.

Yes, we are human with our own minds, desires and basic human issues. If there are 2-3 of us reading the Bible, we might disagree, let our own pride, and human issues get in the way of our understanding. That doesn’t change the fact that it is the Bible you are reading, to have those discussion about how to worship God from what you read in the Bible, if that was all you have.

John 4:22-23
1 Corinthians 10:31
1 Chronicles 16:23-31
Romans 12:1-2
Colossians 3:16-17
Romans 8:26-27
Hebrews 12:28

everything you guys are saying is true. We need the church, we need leaders, we need doctrines, a formal way of doing things, we even need help… but that doesn’t deny the fact that you can learn to worship God if all you had was the Bible.

It seems that you’re setting up an impossible scenario, and then attempting to use it to defend an otherwise indefensible assertion!

or I’m stating Mark 10:27 for God all things are possible.

Yet, that’s not what it teaches: it teaches us that we have limits, not God!

and you would learn about those limit from reading the Bible, if the Bible was all you had to read.

You would also learn, why God filled us with the Holy Spirit, so that we can over come our limit and live by His will with the new heart we are given by Him.

Romans 8:26-27
John 14:15–17
1 John 2:27

 

[annad347]

@Gorgias, how do you pretend not to know something you know? Besides if a person is handing someone the Bible to read, then the Bible isn’t the only thing the person receiving the Bible has… they also have the person who handed them the Bible.

Unless that person disappears never to be seen again… if that happens, then you are back to what I said IF the only thing you had is the Bible, you can learn how to worship God.

I know no one here will ever say it’s true or that it’s even possible… that’s totally understandable… and its okay… doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

 

[Dovekin]

From a practical standpoint: who in the world has only a Bible, and is bereft of people to teach them ???

In 1603, Yi Gwang-jeong, Korean diplomat, returned from Beijing carrying several theological books written by Matteo Ricci, an Italian Jesuit missionary to China. He began disseminating the information in the books, and the first seeds of Christianity were sown.

They did not even have a Bible. Apparently there were active discussions of principles and idea for 150 years before foreign missionaries arrived and the church began functioning as it did in other countries.

Unusual situations have happened all over There have been many in the position of the Ethiopian who have not been given someone like St Philip to teach them. “How can I understand, unless someone instructs me?“

 

[Gorgias]

@Gorgias, how do you pretend not to know something you know?

Because what you suggest appears to be the “pretend” situation.

Unless that person disappears never to be seen again…

…which generally doesn’t happen.

if that happens, then you are back to what I said IF the only thing you had is the Bible, you can learn how to worship God.

If no one is around, and all you have is the Bible… how will you worship God in the context of the Mass? How will you have access to the Eucharist, or other sacraments? In other words, you won’t be able to worship in the way that Jesus intends for us to do.

Unusual situations have happened all over

Key word there is “unusual.” It tends not to happen.

 

[annad347]

Because what you suggest appears to be the “pretend” situation.

I thought it was something done by Holyness Movement in the U.S. in the 1800s… that’s why I asked. What I’m saying isn’t a “pretend” situation.

…which generally doesn’t happen.

but not an impossibility… not everything happens the way we know for them to happen. There are people out in the world who are alone.

If no one is around, and all you have is the Bible… how will you worship God in the context of the Mass? How will you have access to the Eucharist, or other sacraments? In other words, you won’t be able to worship in the way that Jesus intends for us to do.

Matthew 7:7-8 Ask, and it will be given you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you.

John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you.

Philippians 4:19 my God will fully satisfy every need.

When you need more then the Bible, because you read in the Bible you need more then the Bible to worship God… God will provide, who and what you will need. And because you read the Bible, you will know who God sends to you, is someone sent to you by God, so they will teach you God’s truth.

I never said the Bible was all you’ll ever need. I never said you won’t need a church. I never said you wont ever seek and find other people to worship with. I never said you’d be alone forever. I said if all you had was the Bible you can learn how to worship God.

Once you start reading the Bible, learn about God, learn to believe Him, learn to trust Him, learn to pray to Him, learn to listen to Him, learn about the Holy Spirit… you will learn to want more, learn God wants you to want more… but ifall you had was the Bible you can learn how to worship Him.

why is that so hard to believe?

 

[Gorgias]

I thought it was something done by Holyness Movement in the U.S. in the 1800s… that’s why I asked. What I’m saying isn’t a “pretend” situation.

The Holyness movement set up a contrived situation. In essence, they really were saying, “ok… let’s pretend we never saw a Bible before – how would we approach it, then?”

but not an impossibility… not everything happens the way we know for them to happen. There are people out in the world who are alone.

OK. So, at the least, it’s not at all normative. In other words, that means that not only is that not what Jesus had in mind, it’s also not what the vast majority of people experience.

I said if all you had was the Bible you can learn how to worship God.

Except that, having learned, you’d be unable to do it. And sure, that might lead you to pray for someone to come to you. But… we’d sure hope that it was someone who could provide valid sacraments, right?

And besides which: how would you know what are “valid sacraments”, anyway? The Bible doesn’t explain that to you! So, if a Baptist comes walking by, how would you know that his assertion that there aren’t seven sacraments is true? How would you know that what he says is the proper form of worship (i.e., he’d be saying “Mass? No… you don’t need that!”) is actually proper?

why is that so hard to believe?

Because it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

 

[annad347]

… is actually proper?

Where is your faith? Why would God send the wrong person? Why would the Holy Spirit allow me to follow the wrong person?

Because it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

doesn’t it?

 

[Gorgias]

Where is your faith? Why would God send the wrong person? Why would the Holy Spirit allow me to follow the wrong person?

Let me take those in reverse order:

• “why would the Holy Spirit allow me to follow the wrong person?” Well… look at the multitude of Christian denominations, and recognize the divergent doctrines within each. The truth cannot be both something and its opposite, can it? Therefore, there must be Christian denominations out there whose doctrine is wrong. So, let me ask you: why does the Holy Spirit allow the people in these denominations to follow the wrong person, teaching the wrong doctrine?. So, if the Spirit allows that (and, I’d assert, we just made a solid case for demonstrating that this is true), then why would we say that He wouldn’t “allow” you to follow the wrong person in general?
• “Why would God send the wrong person?” He doesn’t. However, He allows evil. Jesus even tells us – explicitly! – that there will be those who follow Him who are false messiahs! And, He doesn’t say “I won’t let them come”, but He tells us to discern wisely and avoid them!
• “Where is your faith?” Where it always has been – front and center! But, no: I don’t believe that God does things that He hasn’t promised to do, and I believe that He asks us to be wise and discerning.

 

[annad347]

“Where is your faith?” Where it always has been – front and center!

Amen!!! Never truly doubted it was where it belonged.

He tells us to discern wisely and avoid them!

Exactly, the Bible teaches how to recognize false teachers, how to recognize God’s truth in what they are teaching. The devil knows we are waiting for God to send us a teacher… he will use that opportunity to send us a false teachers to lead us down the wrong path, but because when we trust God’s Word, we will know it. The person God sends us, would never be the wrong person.

So, let me ask you: why does the Holy Spirit allow the people in these denominations to follow the wrong person, teaching the wrong doctrine? . So, if the Spirit allows that (and, I’d assert, we just made a solid case for demonstrating that this is true), then why would we say that He wouldn’t “allow” you to follow the wrong person in general?

The wrong person would be taking you away from God, teaching you lies about God. The wrong person would be incapable of saying anything good about the Lord.

As for the different denominations I can not answer that, God must have His reasons, but they are not all false teachings.

Its like different roads that leads to the same locations. You might make wrong turns on that road, some are scarier, harder, longer and you will get lost sometimes, but as long as you follow the Holy Spirit, you will be lead to God…that’s what I believe, and now that I know how to use the CCC, I wont be so afraid to drive on the Catholic road.

 

[Gorgias]

The devil knows we are waiting for God to send us a teacher… he will use that opportunity to send us a false teachers to lead us down the wrong path, but because when we trust God’s Word, we will know it. The person God sends us, would never be the wrong person.

Then how do you know that the person in front of you has been sent by God or not? We’re dancing around the question: if a person shows up, how would you know whether he’s been sent by God? He’s not going to be wearing a note saying “trust this guy; love, God”. And, if he’s not from God, then how do you know that?

Exactly, the Bible teaches how to recognize false teachers, how to recognize God’s truth in what they are teaching.

The problem is, you’ve got thousands of Protestant denominations, teaching thousands of different doctrines… and all believe that they’ve recognized God’s truth in the teaching that they believe! So… what do we do with that fact?

The wrong person would be taking you away from God, teaching you lies about God.

How would you know he’s teaching falsehood?

The wrong person would be incapable of saying anything good about the Lord.

That’s simply not true. There are many who cry “Lord, Lord” – who did miracles in His name – about whom Jesus says “get away from me; I never knew you”.

As for the different denominations I can not answer that, God must have His reasons, but they are not all false teachings.

Whether they’re all false isn’t at issue: the question is whether there are false teachings in Protestant denominations. By definition, there must be, if they conflict with one another.

but as long as you follow the Holy Spirit, you will be lead to God…that’s what I believe

I’m cool with that! But… how do you know that you’re actually following the Holy Spirit, and not a malicious or merely misinformed person?

 

[annad347]

That’s simply not true. There are many who cry “Lord, Lord” – who did miracles in His name – about whom Jesus says “get away from me; I never knew you”.

Yes, people do tend to deceive themselves into believing they are doing something in God’s name, to praise and glorify God, when in reality they are doing it for their own glory, their own praise, and their own selfish reason… God knows the truth in our hearts and minds. Matthew 7:22-23.

I’m cool with that! But… how do you know that you’re actually following the Holy Spirit, and not a malicious or merely misinformed person?

By paying very close attention to what the person is saying, teaching and by keeping your focus on God. You have to know God, in order to know who teaches you about Him is true. Praying a LOT. Not being afraid to ask the tough questions. It also doesn’t hurt to return to the original source that started this path to Christ, the Bible.

That’s why I asked the question about the Catechism. I needed to understand how it’s used. Why Catholic’s always refer to it when teaching about God, and not the Bible. Even though I might not agree with everything taught in the Catholic church, I don’t have to fear worshiping there, because God’s truth is present.

I’m not saying its easy… but deep down there’s always God.

 

[Gorgias]

By paying very close attention to what the person is saying, teaching and by keeping your focus on God. You have to know God, in order to know who teaches you about Him is true. Praying a LOT . Not being afraid to ask the tough questions.

But, wouldn’t you say that, in general, Protestants do this? And yet, logically speaking, some groups of them must (by definition) nevertheless be following a person rather than the Holy Spirit!

It also doesn’t hurt to return to the original source that started this path to Christ, the Bible.

The Bible isn’t the original source. Apostolic teaching is more ‘original’.

deep down there’s always God.

 

[annad347]

But, wouldn’t you say that, in general, Protestants do this? And yet, logically speaking, some groups of them must (by definition) nevertheless be following a person rather than the Holy Spirit!

Technically yes, but you can also say that about Catholic’s… if they are following a person and not the Holy Spirit. There is a thin line, you have to pay very close attention to what you are doing when you worship and listen to those who are teaching you, to always make sure you are only following the Spirit of God.

The Bible isn’t the original source. Apostolic teaching is more ‘original’.

Not to the person who only had the Bible to begin their path to God. Eventually they will learn historically the Bible wasn’t the original source to bring God’s people to understand how to worship Him… but to the person who started with the Bible, who only had the Bible for many year, who’s questions were answered for many years by prayers and answers found in the Bible… the “original source” that brought that person to God will be the Bible.