Quick question about The Catechism of the Catholic Church

[Gorgias]

@Gorgias still researching and it might take me a bit. Remember I misunderstood what doctrine means.

No worries!

 

[annad347]

It’s not like he took a pass on the pope but stayed within the Church, now, right? He left the whole organization and started his own.

There was more to that then, he just walked away to start his own organization, because Lutherans are followers of Jesus Christ.

but I have a question for you, if the leader of your organization was doing something that was wrong are you saying its best to stay quiet and remain just so you can be part of the organization? Even if the organization no longer supporting the truth?

we are saved by faith alone, and actions have nothing to do with our salvation

If you mean by acts you mean accepting and being baptized in the name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit… but that more of a choice then a forced action?

and I know, you know these biblical quotes about how you are saved by faith, you are a smart man… but here are a few, anyway.

Luke 7:47-50…Your faith has saved you; go in peace.
Acts 2:38-40 … you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Romans 3:21-25…the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith

I know they don’t say by faith alone, but they also don’t say faith plus the works you do, you are saved… they only say you are saved through your faith.

question: How can anything we do earn us our salvation over the blood of Christ? Isn’t our faith in His death paying for the price of our sin enough? Our good work are testimony to our rebirth with the Holy Spirit, a testimony to our faith in having the Holy Spirit guide us to God’s will?

Sure – but just because you call something “theology”, it doesn’t mean it’s correct.

so how do you know which are correct?

… but what if what you say is inaccurate?

then I’m speaking, not the Holy Spirit within me. You would know that because you have the Holy Spirit within you, and through the Spirit you have God’s truth.

What did I say that was inaccurate?

 

[al2o3]

Gorgias, annad347

Thank you both for a very good discussion - engaged in thoughtful consideration. I hope many read it - it has been very informative.

God Bless

 

[annad347]

… how does Luther get away with changing that teaching, 1500 years into the history of the Church?

Maybe we should let this thread close and start one about Martin Luther or Lutheranism.

Mainly because I’ve been going to a Lutheran church for about the same amount of time I’ve been going to a Catholic church, and you see how much I know about being Catholic.

I couldn’t find anything about that snow covered dung comment except that its a myth, or it has something to do with explaining, we are still trash (putting it politely) and Jesus Christ’s blood is what changes us (yes its not changed just covered, not the same) but I couldn’t find the original comment so I couldn’t read it in its original content.

Anyway, I personally have never studied Lutheranism any more then I’ve studied Catholicism… so, maybe a thread can get your question answered, and the many I’m sure I’ll have.

so start new thread or stick with this one, even if it’s limited.

@Montrose, what ever books Luther wanted to take out of the Bible, God intervened. Thank God.

 

[annad347]

Thank you both for a very good discussion - engaged in thoughtful consideration. I hope many read it - it has been very informative.

Thank you, God Bless you.

 

[Gorgias]

There was more to that then, he just walked away to start his own organization, because Lutherans are followers of Jesus Christ.

That’s the point of the paraphrase of Augustine: if you walk away, following what you like and discarding what you don’t like, then you’re not following Jesus – you’re following yourself.

if the leader of your organization was doing something that was wrong are you saying its best to stay quiet and remain just so you can be part of the organization? Even if the organization no longer supporting the truth?

Nope, I’m not saying “stay quiet”. I’m saying fix things from within, especially when “within” isn’t a team or a club or a government, but rather, a Church founded by Jesus Himself and given protection by Him!!!

The thing, though, is that the Church of Luther’s day was “supporting the truth” in its doctrine. In terms of its prudential judgments and some of its actions? Nope. Not at all. Luther’s “95 Theses” weren’t bad. After all, the Counter-Reformation looked at the question of indulgences (and other things) and said “we’ve gotta fix this!”

Luther, on the other hand – having raised his objections about indulgences – went a step further: he developed his own personal theology (which was in conflict of the theology that the Church had followed for 1500 years!), and then, when that theology was rejected, said, “I’m outta here.”

Luther was a voice for reform, and then… he abandoned the Church! Regional secular leaders were more than happy to capitalize on the opportunity to leave Rome and become their own national churches under national leadership (and take the resources of the Church with them).

Luther wasn’t wrong because he wanted reform – he was wrong because he reacted to the reticence of the pope to listen and then just created a pseudo-Christian theology out of thin air, and then left the Church to rot.

 

[Gorgias]

I know they don’t say by faith alone, but they also don’t say faith plus the works you do, you are saved… they only say you are saved through your faith.

So, in other words, they only tell part of the story. That’s ok, though! We don’t look at one verse of Scripture and say “a-ha! I’m going to build my theology from this single verse!” (Or… “this single passage” or “this single book”!). Rather, we look at the entirety of the Scriptures – and there, we see Jesus telling us that, at the final judgment, we are judged by the way we acted! (Certainly, that action proceeded from grace, but it’s the “grace into action” dynamic that Christ is teaching!)

How you can ignore vast swaths of the Gospels and key into a couple passages or couple of books… and then think that you’ve gotten the entirety of the message right? It’s beyond me.

How can anything we do earn us our salvation over the blood of Christ?

It doesn’t “earn” us salvation. That’s a red herring that Protestant preachers use against Catholicism. It is a reward – unearned, but freely given! – based on the love for God that we exhibit through our actions.

Think back to the parables of the ‘talents’: “Well done, good and faithful servant! Enter into the reward…”! That’s the dynamic here: Christ gives us grace, and we utilize that grace for acts of supernatural merit. That merit belongs to Christ, since he is the source of the grace which enables the actions! And, even better, he then shares that merit with us! So, it really is “all Christ”… and then shared with us!

Isn’t our faith in His death paying for the price of our sin enough?

Ahh… “penal substitution”. That’s a novel invention, too. (I think Calvin came up with that one.) So, here’s the thing: if you don’t accept Jesus, and if you’re not baptized, and if you don’t do the things that Jesus commands us to do… is Jesus’ death on the cross – the “paying the price of our sin” – is it “enough”? Or… isn’t it really necessary for us to do these things (in His grace)? If it is… then we can’t claim “His death as a price for sin is enough”… right?

so how do you know which are correct?

Jesus gave us the Church to teach. I trust those to whom Jesus entrusted the teaching function, and not those who went their own way in their doctrine.

You would know that because you have the Holy Spirit within you, and through the Spirit you have God’s truth.

But we already showed that there are plenty of people teaching contradictory things about God. And there are plenty of people listening and agreeing to these contradictory teachings! Are you really saying that all these people “don’t have the Holy Spirit within” them?

 

[Gorgias]

Maybe we should let this thread close and start one about Martin Luther or Lutheranism.

Perhaps…

I couldn’t find anything about that snow covered dung comment except that its a myth

I’ve found these:

Therefore let us embrace Christ, who was delivered for us, and His righteousness; but let us regard our righteousnesses as dung, so that we, having died to sins, may live to God alone." (LW 30:294)

“Explanation of Martin Luther: It is customary to ask whether it is permissible for a man to glory in the righteousness of the law and the performance of his duty, as Paul glories, although our righteousness is imperfect, yes, dung and uncleanness before God. I say that it is so.” (LW 34:178)

“Explanation of Martin Luther: I said before that our righteousness is dung in the sight of God. Now if God chooses to adorn dung, he can do so. It does not hurt the sun, because it sends its rays into the sewer.” (LW 34: 184)

@Montrose, what ever books Luther wanted to take out of the Bible, God intervened. Thank God.

Yeah, but then later, his followers actually did it.

 

[annad347]

How you can ignore vast swaths of the Gospels and key into a couple passages or couple of books… and then think that you’ve gotten the entirety of the message right? It’s beyond me

That’s what you think I did? If that’s what I do, just take bits and pieces of scripture then say “That’s it” then why bother having a discussion with me? It’s not real.

 

[annad347]

Are you really saying that all these people “don’t have the Holy Spirit within” them?

I’m saying they Do have the Holy Spirit in them. Why God allows His children to go down different paths is something I do not know.

The Church Jesus established is still present because Jesus Christ is present.

 

[annad347]

Yeah, but then later, his followers actually did it.

I dont know anything about that other then the 7 books in the OT. I use a King James Bible… and The Living Bible. I have no problems following church services with those Bibles

 

[annad347]

It is a reward – unearned, but freely given! – based on the love for God that we exhibit through our actions.

Not a reward, a Gift freely given. A reward you earn a gift you get whether you deserve it or not.

~♡~♡~♡~

And yes maybe we should post all the Lutheran stuff in a new thread and God willing someone who is as Lutheran, as you are Catholic will join to answer our questions about him.

 

[annad347]

if you don’t do the things that Jesus commands us to do… is Jesus’ death on the cross – the “paying the price of our sin” – is it “enough”? Or… isn’t it really necessary for us to do these things (in His grace)? If it is… then we can’t claim “His death as a price for sin is enough”… right?

Yea I questioned this too… but it’s not, you have too but you want too.

God’s death paid the price for our sins, when you accept this, believe this… everything else you mentioned becomes something you want to do…not something we have to do.

Catholic are always saying it’s a choice we either follow God or we choose not too. Your saying we have too, if we have too then it’s no longer a choice.

Yes God commands be we are still free to follow or not. God loves us, He wants us to follow, that’s why He gave us Jesus Christ and left us with The Holy Spirit.

 

[teamjesusnumber31]

Quick question and after 275 responses we’re seeing there’s not a quick answer

 

[annad347]

Quick question and after 275 responses we’re seeing there’s not a quick answer

ROFL… no it wasnt.

 

[GodIsPerfection]

After 277 responses, it seems not a lot of traction gained.

With #278 I elect not to strive here…for striving damages my spirit.

2 Timothy 2: 23 - 26

23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

[annad347]

After 277 responses, it seems not a lot of traction gained.

Actually the original purpose of this thread was for me to understand how to use the Catechism… I have so that traction was gained.

The rest I guess is placed in God’s hands.

 

[Gorgias]

I’m saying they Do have the Holy Spirit in them. Why God allows His children to go down different paths is something I do not know.

OK… but, on one hand, you’re saying “the Holy Spirit won’t allow it”, and on the other, you’re saying “I don’t know why God allows it.” I mean… which is it? Either you’re right in your belief that God doesn’t allow it, or you’re right in your observation that God does allow it! (I’m going with "God does allow people to choose improperly- and unauthoritatively-formed doctrine and beliefs.)

The Church Jesus established is still present because Jesus Christ is present.

But that doesn’t mean that every denomination that cries out “Lord, Lord!” is in Jesus.

I dont know anything about that other then the 7 books in the OT.

That’s the point: they took out seven books (largely because, I’d assert, they didn’t like the Catholic doctrines that are in them). And let’s not forget that he added “alone” to his translation of Romans 3:28, claiming that his interpretation of the text required “faith” to mean what he wanted it to mean.

annad347:

Not a reward, a Gift freely given.

Matthew 10:40-42…

[Jesus said, ]“Whoever receives you receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me. Whoever receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever receives a righteous man because he is righteous will receive a righteous man’s reward. And whoever gives only a cup of cold water to one of these little ones to drink because he is a disciple—amen, I say to you, he will surely not lose his reward.”

Matthew 6:4, 6, 18…

when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you…

when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you…

when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, that your fasting may not be seen by men but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

Jesus definitely talks about rewards from God!

annad347:

God’s death paid the price for our sins, when you accept this, believe this… everything else you mentioned becomes something you want to do…not something we have to do.

So, is it required, then, or not? Aside from the desire to lead a moral life, is it a requirement from God to do so? Or is it optional?

annad347:

Your saying we have too, if we have too then it’s no longer a choice.

No, that’s not right. There are many things I “have” to do. However, I still must choose to do them. (There may be consequences if I do not choose to do them, but the choice still exists!)

Quick question and after 275 responses we’re seeing there’s not a quick answer

There’s a lot of good discussion, though!

 

[annad347]

OK… but, on one hand, you’re saying “the Holy Spirit won’t allow it”, and on the other, you’re saying “I don’t know why God allows it.” I mean… which is it? …

• The Holy Spirit will not lead you in any direction that will take you away from the truth of God.
• God allows people to take their own path that leads them to Him.
• If you do not pray for God’s guidance on your journey and understanding of God or if refuse to listen to where God is leading you through the Holy Spirit, then yes, you can be lead down the wrong path.
• The Holy Spirit will always lead you to God.

But that doesn’t mean that every denomination that cries out “Lord, Lord!” is in Jesus.

Matthew 7 is pretty self explanatory, but you have to read the whole passage , not just the one line (like you tell me). The passage is about the individual person, not the church. Not every person in the Catholic church who cries Lord Lord is heard by God.

You can’t hide your true intention from God.

That’s the point: they took out seven books (largely because, I’d assert, they didn’t like the Catholic doctrines that are in them). And let’s not forget that he added “alone” to his translation of Romans 3:28, claiming that his interpretation of the text required “faith” to mean what he wanted it to mean.

Something to ask on a Lutheran thread, so we can get an accurate answers. Last time this question was asked was 5 years ago, so maybe its okay for you ask again. Maybe start a thread that says… Why did Luther change the Greek translation to read “faith alone” and took 7 books of the OT out of the Bible, and did he make any other changes to the Bible?

So, is it required, then, or not? Aside from the desire to lead a moral life , is it a requirement from God to do so? Or is it optional?

“Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” Jesus’s words to the man besides Him on the cross. That man did nothing except believe Jesus would be in His kingdom in paradise. Jesus promised he would join Him. Through faith alone he was saved.

BUT… this is the hard part… and my friend had a hard time explaining it to me, because I’m a suborn person, but he kind of shut me up with one question, that totally blows what I said to you out the water. And when I tell you what he asked me, you will understand why I’m pouting like a 2 year old because his question kind of proves wrong.

If God asked me to do something I did not want to do, would still do it?

 

[annad347]

That question made me rethink what I said earlier. My friend explained the bottom line, its all about being obedient to God. Whether or not you want to be obedient to God. There isn’t one without the other… faith and works. He explained it better then I just did, sorry I couldn’t write what he said word for word, but it made sense to me, but, how you really can’t have one without the other.

Without faith there is no salvation, you can’t be reborn with the Holy Spirit, if you don’t have faith in God.

When you are reborn with the Holy Spirit within you, you can’t show the power of God in your life without works you do in His name. Show your love for God.

Like I said he explained it so much better then I could sorry, wish you could talk to him, he’d give you interesting conversations… anyway.

You’re not earning your salvation by the works you do, but it does go hand in hand with your faith… like what you said.

BUT… the scripture you gave me about the rewards, kind of made it sound as if I’m just a nice person to someone God sends me I will receive the same rewards as the person sent by God… but we both know that you don’t receive salvation just by being a good guy… so…

and Catholics believe in purgatory. They believe you earn your way out of Purgatory &/or being cleaned of sins by the works you do…

That seems like you are trying to earn your salvation, I don’t know… that kind of sound like an the correct reason to uses the Lord Lord passage, cause God will know you’re true intentions, for the works you do.

FYI, see the Holy Spirit keeps us on track… as long as we are willing to pay attention. My desire to learn and follow the Lord, I can admit when I’m wrong, and willing open my heart to God’s truth.

@GodIsPerfection, thank you for your reply.