Quick question about The Catechism of the Catholic Church

[Justin_Mary]

“Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” Jesus’s words to the man besides Him on the cross. That man did nothing except believe Jesus would be in His kingdom in paradise. Jesus promised he would join Him. Through faith alone he was saved.

Completely ignoring his response to what was happening around him. The first thief saw what was happening & joined in the mockery, “If you are the son of God, get us down from here & save us.” Thinking only of himself.

The other allowed compassion to move his heart, despite his own circumstance.

His faith was made manifest in his words, an act of mercy.

 

[Montrose]

The Holy Spirit will always lead you to God.

The Holy Spirit IS God.

 

[annad347]

The Holy Spirit IS God.

I know… God will always lead you to Him.

 

[GodIsPerfection]

My friend explained the bottom line, its all about being obedient to God. Whether or not you want to be obedient to Him. There isn’t one without the other… faith and works.

Martin Luther (after 1500 years of Catholicism) invoked the novel concept that men are saved by grace alone. This notion dispenses with the need to practice many of the sacraments central to Catholicism, such as confession, regular Mass attendance, and other works of faith. The Catholic Church has never accepted Luther’s premise that grace alone suffices for salvation. Your friend’s explanation about the need for faith and works, both, is more congruent with the Catholic Faith.

Purgatory is a Biblical concept. Here is a modest illustration of how the Church views Purgatory.

Let’s say you are texting on your phone and driving, when the driver ahead suddenly stops, and you collide with the rear of her car. It is a low speed collision, and nobody is hurt, but her bumper is knocked off, lying in the street. You apologize, and she says with a wave of her hand “It’s OK…I forgive you…” Well, now you are forgiven for your negligence, but there is still the issue of paying off the damage your negligence caused.

We sin in this world. We may be forgiven by the power of the Holy Spirit in Confession (or if you are Protestant by direct appeal God), but we still have to pay for the damage our sins have done to other people’s lives in this world. Purgatory is the dimension where Catholics believe we pay off the damage we have done, before entering heaven in a state of purification. If you Google “purgatory” there are various scriptures that support the belief of the Church.

Everyone who is saved, passes through purgatory, and eventually into heaven. Everyone in purgatory is already saved, they are only being purified further before entrance into heaven, as I explained. Martyrs for the faith are an exception. They do not pass through purgatory, but go directly to heaven at death.

The truly wicked, who are condemned to hell, never enter purgatory.

 

[Montrose]

Everyone who is saved, passes through purgatory, and eventually into heaven.

Not correct. That is not a Church teaching.
For example, if someone dies immediately after baptism they go straight to Heaven.

 

[Gorgias]

• The Holy Spirit will not lead you in any direction that will take you away from the truth of God.
• The Holy Spirit will always lead you to God.

OK, but we’re still back at our dilemma though, aren’t we? Christian denomination Foo says “We believe such-and-such” and Christian denomination Bar says “We believe the opposite of such-and-such.” If the Holy Spirit leads us to God, then one of these denominations aren’t being led by the Holy Spirit, right? But, both think that they are being led by the Holy Spirit! So… which one isn’t Spirit-led?

• God allows people to take their own path that leads them to Him.

I think I would nuance that a bit: “God allows people to choose their own path.” Period; full stop.

• If you do not pray for God’s guidance on your journey and understanding of God or if refuse to listen to where God is leading you through the Holy Spirit, then yes, you can be lead down the wrong path.

But, Christians of all denominations claim that they’re praying to the Holy Spirit. Why do they disagree on their beliefs, then?

Matthew 7 is pretty self explanatory, but you have to read the whole passage , not just the one line (like you tell me).

Good point!

The passage is about the individual person, not the church. Not every person in the Catholic church who cries Lord Lord is heard by God.

Agreed. And yet, if we’ve got groups of folks who have diverged from Church teaching and are off doing their own thing, wouldn’t we say that they’re a group of individual people who are at risk?

Looking at Mt 7 in context, I see the following:

• Beware of false prophets.
• Not everyone who says “Lord, Lord” will enter the kingdom of heaven.
• Everyone who hears Jesus’ words and acts on them is like a wise person who built his home on rock.

Now, isn’t that an interesting set of assertions, especially in the current context of our discussion (the Protestant Reformation and the plethora of denominations)? I mean, in context, we’ve got ‘false prophets’, people who are led astray but think they’re following Christ, and then the wise people who build on rock (would it be too bold to mention that the rock in Mt 16 is Peter… and the Catholic Church that Christ builds on Peter?).

 

[Gorgias]

Why did Luther change the Greek translation to read “faith alone”

Because he claimed that, in order to have an accurate German translation, it was necessary to add “alone” to the text. (It was never there, in any previous translation.)

[why Luther] took 7 books of the OT out of the Bible

He didn’t, but later Lutherans did. There are many claims, these days. Some Protestants who don’t know their history even claim that Catholics added books, presumably after the Reformation! Other folks claim “well, the Jews didn’t use the deuterocanonical books” or “they’re not quoted in the NT, so we don’t include them.” None of these hold up to scrutiny.

Luther himself included them in his translation… but didn’t consider them to be “inspired Scripture.” Nevertheless, they were part of the Septuagint (i.e., the Greek translation of the Jewish Scriptures), and were known to Jews of the first century A.D. (including Jesus and His apostles).

Here are a couple videos that address the question: Catholic Answers has a short one, and the New St Thomas Institute has a more complete discussion of the question.

Jesus’s words to the man besides Him on the cross. That man did nothing except believe Jesus would be in His kingdom in paradise. Jesus promised he would join Him. Through faith alone he was saved.

I disagree. He “did nothing” later on because he was literally hanging from his own cross. But… did he really “do nothing”? Far from it! He rebuked the other criminal on the cross! He witnessed to Jesus to those present! It was not “faith alone” – he repented; he witnessed; he taught.

 

[annad347]

Purgatory is a Biblical

Other then 1 Corithians 3:15, what’s the other verses… isnt there one in Revelations?

 

[Gorgias]

Catholics believe in purgatory. They believe you earn your way out of Purgatory &/or being cleaned of sins by the works you do…

Wait… no! That’s not what the Church teaches! It’s not that “you earn your way out of Purgatory”! (Whoever taught you that, or wherever you picked it up… it’s wrong!)

Here’s what the Church teaches about “purgation” (it’s pretty easy):

• you’re not perfect today, right?
• you won’t be perfect at the point of your death, right?
• Revelation 21:27 teaches us that nothing that isn’t pure will be able to enter heaven. (This is the verse you asked @GodIsPerfection about, I think.)
• So, if you’re not perfect at the point of your death, but you will be perfect when you enter heaven… then something has to happen between ‘death’ and ‘heaven’… right?
• “Purgatory” is just the name that the Church gives to the process of purification that will happen!

So, at our death, we come face-to-face with Jesus, and the “particular judgment” takes place. (That’s when we find out whether we’re in a state of grace (and therefore, heaven-bound), or in unrepentant mortal sin (that is, not in a state of grace, and therefore, hell-bound). For those who are heaven-bound, purification may be necessary.

Now, here’s the thing:

• I can’t “earn” my way through purification.
• I can’t “buy” my way through purification.
• (And I sure can’t “earn” or “buy” my way into heaven.)

The good works that I did while I was alive don’t “earn” me “time off of Purgatory.” (Nevertheless, the penances that I do while on earth actually do change my heart and orient me toward heaven!)

There’s one other way of thinking about “Purgatory”: we talk about sin having an effect on us. Even forgiven sin still deforms us – we learn that we can get away with lying, and even once we’ve been forgiven, the fact that we’ve lied in the past makes it more tempting for us to lie in the future. Our sins (even forgiven ones) have damaged our relationships. So, we make (what in antiquity was called) “satisfaction” for our transgressions.

(The common example you hear folks often talking about is the “broken window” example. My dad might have forgiven me for breaking a window in the house, but there’s still the mess to clean up and a new window to buy and install. “Making satisfaction” is that “cleaning up” that we do. Sometimes, you’ll hear “satisfaction” mentioned as “penance.” If we haven’t “cleaned up” sufficiently – that is, if we’re still not perfect when we die – then that “cleaning up” is the purification of “purgation.”

So, are you “earning your way out of Purgatory” by what you do today? Nope: you’re actively participating in your process of being perfected.

Does that help? Any other questions about purgation?

 

[annad347]

@Gorgias, not yet but I do have a question… if you know the answers to what you are asking me about Luther why are you asking me about him?

 

[Gorgias]

@Gorgias, not yet but I do have a question… if you know the answers to what you are asking me about Luther why are you asking me about him?

Because I’m asking whether you know these answers…!

 

[annad347]

Because I’m asking whether you know these answers…!

sent you a PM.

 

[annad347]

… But, both think that they are being led by the Holy Spirit! So… which one isn’t Spirit-led

If believing in such-and-such means you believe in God. Then who ever believes in the opposite of such-and-such, believes there is no God. If you believe there is no God then how are you following the Holy Spirit?

 

[Montrose]

Gorgias:

… But, both think that they are being led by the Holy Spirit! So… which one isn’t Spirit-led

If believing in such-and-such means you believe in God. Then who ever believes in the opposite of such-and-such, believes there is no God. If you believe there is no God then how are you following the Holy Spirit?

I don’t think that answers the question.
Both believe in God. Both believe they are being led by the Holy Spirit. Their beliefs within that are opposites. The Holy Spirit can’t be right in both cases. How do you know which is right?

 

[Gorgias]

If believing in such-and-such means you believe in God. Then who ever believes in the opposite of such-and-such, believes there is no God. If you believe there is no God then how are you following the Holy Spirit?

Nope. I’m thinking more in terms of particular beliefs, especially in the realm of morality, and not just “do you believe in God?”

For example:

• is abortion a sin?
• is homosexual activity sinful?
• is the Bible inerrant or merely a product of human intellect?
• does baptism have a sacramental effect, or is it just a sign of something that’s already occurred internally in a person?
• is there a ‘rapture’?
• is capital punishment morally acceptable?
• is Mary sinless? is she perpetually virgin?
• are we saved by “faith alone”?
• is “sola scriptura” the rule of faith for Christians? Is it expressed in the Bible?

…and that’s just a start. For each of these, you’ll find Christians lined up on both sides of the question, and everyone is convinced not only of their particular answer, but that the answer comes by way of the Holy Spirit.

Clearly, the answers to these cannot be simultaneously ‘yes’ and ‘no’. And therefore, someone has to be wrong about the guidance of the Holy Spirit in their denominations’ answers!

 

[annad347]

Sorry I’m having a hard time trying to figure out find the words that best explains what I want to say… but it’s not opposite.

It can’t be the opposite.

Yes, it’s more than just do you believe in God or not, but we have some core beliefs that are true to God. Core beliefs you have to believe are God’s truth, if you don’t believe them you cannot have salvation.

If the church you are attending doesn’t teach those core beliefs in God’s truth, the Holy Spirit cannot be in that church.

It’s when we go beyond our core beliefs that we have differences. That’s the part I’m having a hard time explaining my answer to your question… because there is so much to say.

I know the answer is, if your beliefs are not leading you to God, glorifying God then you are not following or listening to the Holy Spirit.

If those belief go against the core belief of God’s truth, like the only way to the Father is through the Son, you are not listening to God’s truth, not following or the Holy Spirit.

If any of your beliefs take you away from God, from what you know to be God’s truth, then you have to really look into why you have those beliefs. What it is about them that makes you believe its God’s truth when it’s taking you away from God.

I know that’s not really answering your question, but like I said I’m having a hard time explaining what I want to say.

 

[Gorgias]

It’s when we go beyond our core beliefs that we have differences. That’s the part I’m having a hard time explaining my answer to your question… because there is so much to say.

This notion of “in essentials, unity; in in non-essentials liberty, and in all things charity” is an idea that surfaced after the Reformers had already splintered into a variety of groups. It arose from Reformers and those who were at odds with the Church and her teaching, in the 17th or 18th century.

So, it’s never been the case that “core beliefs” are all that are necessary! However, it has been something that those who have already been engaged in pick-and-choose Christianity attempted to posit as a rule of the faith.

If those belief go against the core belief of God’s truth

The problem becomes the identification of what the “core beliefs” are. Some would say that it includes certain beliefs, while others who reject those beliefs make the claim that they’re not “core”. See the problem? Once you open it up like a smorgasbord, it becomes an adventure in subjectivity. This guy says that these things are core and lead you to God, and that guy over there says that they’re not core and that they lead you away from God. Who can decide? Does everyone get to make it up on their own? Or did Jesus leave us an authoritative body who is tasked with making these decisions in his name? (You know what my answer is, right? )

 

[annad347]

So, it’s never been the case that “core beliefs” are all that are necessary! However, it has been something that those who have already been engaged in pick-and-choose Christianity attempted to posit as a rule of the faith.

Because it’s was understood after the Reformation it’s automatically wrong? Even if the core beliefs are God’s truth?

The problem becomes the identification of what the “core beliefs” are. Some would say that it includes certain beliefs, while others who reject those beliefs make the claim that they’re not “core”. See the problem?

No, I don’t, especially now a days.

We are blessed not only with the ability to hear the Word of God by word of mouth but by written scripture. Every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching….

The only way there would be a problem with understanding the core beliefs in God’s truth is by ignoring the Holy Spirit within you as well as all the tools God gives us to learn about Him… including prayer

Once you open it up like a smorgasbord, it becomes an adventure in subjectivity. This guy says that these things are core and lead you to God, and that guy over there says that they’re not core and that they lead you away from God. Who can decide?

The Holy Spirit within you.

Pay attention to what is being said by that guy or this guy, study what is being said by that guy or this guy, pray about what is being said by that guy or this guy.

Pray for understanding from God’s Spirit within you, pray to know who is and who isn’t glorifying God in what they are saying. Ask in faith without doubt James 1:5-8.

You do have the power to understand the core beliefs that are God’s truth… God gave us the power when we are baptized with the Holy Spirit. It might take time to learn it but God will never abandon you or forsake you, especially if you keep ask for help.

Does everyone get to make it up on their own? Or did Jesus leave us an authoritative body who is tasked with making these decisions in his name? (You know what my answer is, right? )

Yes, in His name. There are people on earth with authority to witness God’s truth. God uses people to help us in many ways… but any authoritative decisions they make come from the Holy Spirit Jesus Christ breathed into them, then commanded for them to wait, so they could receive the Holy Spirit with the full power and authority they will need to be His witnesses, to heal, perform miracles and baptize His children in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. Acts 1

Any authority they have is not by their doing but the power of the Holy Spirit within them. Then when we are baptized with the Holy Spirit we become God’s witness to the glory of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

 

[Gorgias]

Because it’s was understood after the Reformation it’s automatically wrong?

No. Because “it’s not just about core beliefs” and “you can do whatever you wish, as long as you follow a subset of core beliefs” has explicitly been denied as a Christian doctrine – it’s even in the Bible!

St Paul talks about factions in the Church, and condemns them:

if anyone is inclined to be argumentative, we do not have such a custom, nor do the churches of God. (1 Cor 11:16)

Here, he’s advocating for unity.

I hear that when you meet as a church there are divisions among you, and to a degree I believe it; there have to be factions among you in order that (also) those who are approved among you may become known (1 Cor 11:19)

Here, Paul is explicitly saying that differences and factionalism are valuable inasmuch as they identify which factions have approved practices and which have unapproved ones…!

Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” …

[Jesus replied,] “there are some of you who do not believe”…

As a result of this, many [of] his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”
(John 6:60, 64, 66-67)

Here, Jesus is directly and explicitly responding to people who respond to His teaching with “nah… I don’t like that; I can’t follow that”. His response? Well… is it “that’s ok – after all, what I’m teaching you is ‘in essentials, unity; in in non-essentials liberty, and in all things charity’”? No… not at all. They want to leave Him, so He lets them. Then, he asks his Apostles whether they’re leaving, too!

(And if you want to reply, “well… maybe that teaching was one of the essentials!”, please keep in mind that Jesus was talking about eating His true body and drinking His true blood. If that’s an essential, then we’re gonna have to talk about whether Reformation communities hold to the essentials!

Even if the core beliefs are God’s truth?

The question isn’t whether the core beliefs are God’s truth – the question is whether the divergent beliefs are all God’s truth as well, and whether “pick and choose” is what God has in mind.

No, I don’t, especially now a days.

Hmm… so, it’s ok with you that one group of Christians says “this stuff here is what’s essential” and another group of Christians disagrees and says “no… that’s not what’s essential – this other stuff is what’s essential!”

 

[Gorgias]

The only way there would be a problem with understanding the core beliefs in God’s truth is by ignoring the Holy Spirit within you as well as all the tools God gives us to learn about Him… including prayer

Be careful – that’s a slippery slope! That standard, in its essence, says “well… I know that I have the Holy Spirit operating in me, but since your ‘core beliefs’ diverge from mine, then clearly you’re ignoring the Holy Spirit within you!!”

You do have the power to understand the core beliefs that are God’s truth

Sure, but… what does it mean when you have one set of core beliefs and I have another? There’s a serious problem there!

There are people on earth with authority to witness God’s truth.

And when folks break away from those who possess God’s authority? What then?