Quick question about The Catechism of the Catholic Church

[annad347]

…“it’s not just about core beliefs” and “you can do whatever you wish, as long as you follow a subset of core beliefs” has explicitly been denied as a Christian doctrine – it’s even in the Bible!

how is what I said about core beliefs leads to do whatever you want? Besides I core beliefs can not be different. You have to believe Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior, no one gets to the Father but through the Son to be a Christian (not sure if I’m using the exact words but you know what I mean)

Also, what do those 2 passages have to do with core beliefs?

One is talking about why are people in the church arguing about customs in the church. If you are saying you have to accept what the churches teaches, then what about when Romans 14:5-9, when Paul says it doesn’t matter if you celebrate the Jewish traditions or not, eat meat or not, only that what you do is for the glorification of God.

The second are people who never accepted Jesus, they walked away from Him. You can’t believe the core beliefs of Christianity if you don’t accept Jesus Christ.

Yes Jesus wanted unity for His church, He is who unifies us… His truth.

– the question is whether the divergent beliefs are all God’s truth as well, and whether “pick and choose” is what God has in mind.

divergent beliefs are not God’s truth and you can’t pick and choose

Hmm… so, it’s ok with you that one group of Christians says “this stuff here is what’s essential” and another group of Christians disagrees and says “no… that’s not what’s essential – this other stuff is what’s essential!”

Depend, is what they are saying is essential is to glorify God, bringing you to God’s truth. Or is what they considered essential is glorifying the person who claims this is an essential belief to God’s truth.

 

[annad347]

Be careful – that’s a slippery slope! That standard, in its essence, says “well… I know that I have the Holy Spirit operating in me , but since your ‘core beliefs’ diverge from mine, then clearly you’re ignoring the Holy Spirit within you!!”

Again, core beliefs cannot diverge. Your Holy Spirit can not say anything that takes you away from God, if you being lead away from God, its not your Holy Spirit you are listening too. Your Spirit wouldn’t tell you its okay to disobey God… Your Spirit would say, God loves you, He knows you made a mistake, you sinned, repent, let me lead you to God’s will, let me help you.

There is no slippery slope. You’re Holy Spirit will lead you to God, if it’s not then its not your Holy Spirit you are listening too.

Sure, but… what does it mean when you have one set of core beliefs and I have another? There’s a serious problem there!

Depends on the core beliefs we are talking about… and why we believe that is a vital essential belief that bring us to God’s truth. Is it an essential belief that you know you must accept or not? They can not differ and still be a core belief of God’s truth.

And when folks break away from those who possess God’s authority? What then?

If you are talking about a specific person, they might have a very good reason… so a good leader would want to find out what happened, pray about it together and God willing come up with a solution that makes sure everyone is still on the right path to God. Anything else wouldn’t be acceptable… but that’s just my opinion. I can’t answer for everyone.

 

[Gorgias]

how is what I said about core beliefs leads to do whatever you want?

Because each group of Christians picks and chooses – what they call “core beliefs”, what they call “beliefs that are non-core” – and therefore, what we’re left with is groups of Christians who all disagree with one another. Is that proof of the Holy Spirit working among us?

You have to believe Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior, no one gets to the Father but through the Son to be a Christian (not sure if I’m using the exact words but you know what I mean)

OK… we both agree that this is a “core belief”. However, I (and the Catholic and Orthodox Churches – the largest Churches in the world!) have a “core belief” that you don’t share: that the Eucharist is truly the body and blood of Christ, and is confected only through the consecration by a priest with valid ordination. So, that’s the problem right there: different groups of Christians have different “core beliefs.” How do we make sense of that, then? We both say that the Holy Spirit is guiding us. Is He guiding you to say “no it isn’t” and me to say “yes it is”?

Also, what do those 2 passages have to do with core beliefs?

Paul is arguing that there is only one set of valid beliefs in the Church, and not a set of divergent beliefs. He’s also saying that these groups of people with divergent beliefs are good for one thing – identifying who’s on the wrong path!

Jesus is saying that the choice is “do it my way or don’t do it at all”, not “do it my way… or do it his way… or do it another way – as long as you credit it back to me”!!!

The second are people who never accepted Jesus, they walked away from Him.

No, no! They absolutely accepted Him! But, when one “core belief” popped up, they said “no thanks!”. And Jesus didn’t say “well, that’s ok! Go form your own new denomination, and choose what you want to believe!”

divergent beliefs are not God’s truth and you can’t pick and choose

So – how, then, do we deal with the fact that there are hundreds (if not thousands) of sets of Christian beliefs in hundreds or thousands of denominations? I agree – the divergent beliefs are not God’s truth. Where does that leave us, then?

 

[Gorgias]

Again, core beliefs cannot diverge.

The problem is… they already have. As you look at the wide scope of Christianity, you see a ton of divergent beliefs which are labeled “core” by some groups and not by others.

(From a practical perspective, here’s what tends to happen: let’s suppose you and I and eight other people are members of a Church and we all believe in the same ten “core beliefs”. One of the members decides he’s not good with that belief, and he goes off and starts a new denomination. He shares nine “core beliefs” and one other belief. Now, we scratch our heads and say “well… we’re in unity – as long as we say that only the nine beliefs that we agree on are ‘core’.” And then another leaves, and another… and at the end of the day, the only “core belief” that’s left is that we are all pointing toward Jesus (but are believing a whole set of divergent beliefs). That’s a real problem! That’s the “Lord, Lord!” warning!

 

[Justin_Mary]

please keep in mind that Jesus was talking about eating His true body and drinking His true blood. If that’s an essential, then we’re gonna have to talk about whether Reformation communities hold to the essentials!

& he says unless you eat his flesh & drink his blood there is no life in you.

I don’t pretend to know all that means, but at the very least I have to believe those with no life in them will be told to stand with the goats, not the sheep.

1What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we looked upon and touched with our hands concerns the Word of life—a 2for the life was made visible; we have seen it and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made visible to us—b 3what we have seen and heard we proclaim now to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; for our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.c

I’ve got to imagine the “us” referenced here is the Church. The Apostles & later the Bishops & not just someone who picked up the Bible 1500 years later saying “What he really meant was…”

& the Holy Spirit will lead those with eyes to see & ears to hear directly to the Church & the Sacraments.

 

[annad347]

Is that proof of the Holy Spirit working among us?

Yes, actually it is. The Holy Spirit is always working in us to guide us to God’s understand and to live by His will. Matthew 7:7-8 When we ask it will be given. When we search, we will find. When we knock a door will open. When we are looking for the truth on how to praise and glorify God, we will find it, because of our faith in the Holy Spirit given to us by Him. So yes, two people discussing the core beliefs of Christianity is the Holy Spirit at work, even if they come up with “diverse” answers, because God knows the truth about how and why they came up to the answers, if those answers are to glorify God, bring the Word to light or if those answers are for their own glorification, so they can brag to the world they have all the answers.

Which brings us to the passage you love to quote. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Matthew 7:21-23

You keep mentioning it because if people are worshiping God in any church that isn’t Catholic they are doing whatever they want…

You are right and wrong. 1. You are right they are not in the Catholic church, but 2. You have no idea if they are doing whatever they want, especially if they are worshiping God.

You mentioned the Eucharist…

… We both say that the Holy Spirit is guiding us. Is He guiding you to say “no it isn’t” and me to say “yes, it is”?

The Holy Spirit is guiding us to what the Eucharist is, why it is important for us to partake in it. The Holy Spirit is guiding us both to say yes, Yes to Jesus. Yes, to Jesus when He says… “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day… John 6:53-59. Yes, to Jesus when He says this is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me Luke 22:19-20 Mark 14:22-24 Matthew 26:26-28

 

[annad347]

continued from above post…

The Holy Spirit is guiding us to do God’s will. God wills us to partake in the remembrance of the covenant Jesus gave us during the last supper, and when we do so we are glorifying Him… and though I’m not worthy, He just says the Word and my soul is healed. Most importantly we are telling God that we trust Him to make us worthy, because He know the truth behind the why.

No, no! They absolutely accepted Him! … And Jesus didn’t say “well, that’s ok! Go form your own new denomination, and choose what you want to believe!”

Yea, He definitely didn’t say that…

He actually did say: “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63** It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But among you there are some who do not believe.” ** John 60:62-64

If they do not believe they did not accept.

… and at the end of the day, the only “core belief” that’s left is that we are all pointing toward Jesus

Is that not enough? (yes I know what you are going to say, but you might shock me to say “it’s a start.”)

 

[Ilija]

Catechism is combined work of bishops that took long time to develop.
It’s main purpose is to answer questions that are otherwise not trivial to answer by using bible a lone.
Also dogma and documents of Catholic church is not “user friendly” and often misinterpreted .

Such “hard” questions are the root cause for polemics among Christians (not just Catholics) and usually lead to different interpretations of documents and the bible or different and unrelated answers which only cause confusion.

That is the reason why there was a need for catechism, a written word that represent answers which are backed by all bishops around world, and is as such trustworthy and simple enough for non educated people. (I mean non educated regarding church teachings, and bible interpretation)

Misinterpretation of popes trough history, and misinterpretation of the bible as we all know caused many divisions among us, catechism can now be used to represent official opinions of the bishops.

Finally to add, entry catechism is based upon vatican texts, anything that you find in catechism can also be found online on vatican website published documents which are good tool to additionally explain the meaning of specifics.

 

[Gorgias]

Yes, actually it is. The Holy Spirit is always working in us to guide us to God’s understand and to live by His will. Matthew 7:7-8 When we ask it will be given. When we search, we will find. When we knock a door will open. When we are looking for the truth on how to praise and glorify God, we will find it, because of our faith in the Holy Spirit given to us by Him. So yes, two people discussing the core beliefs of Christianity is the Holy Spirit at work, even if they come up with “diverse” answers, because God knows the truth about how and why they came up to the answers, if those answers are to glorify God, bring the Word to light

Hang on a second, though: I think you’ve moved the goalposts. The question wasn’t “can two Christians talk about their different sets of beliefs around the watercooler?”. Rather, it was “are two different Christians, with two different sets of beliefs, both following the direction of the Holy Spirit?”

Just to provide some concrete examples: if one group says “baptism forgives sins and imparts grace” and another says “baptism is merely a sign of an already-present disposition in the heart”, then are both following the Holy Spirit? Is the Holy Spirit really telling some folks “yep, forgiveness and grace!” and other folks “nah… you’re just getting dunked”…?

Another concrete example: if one group of Christians says “the Eucharist really is the Body and Blood of Christ” and the other says “nah… it’s just a sign of the relationships we humans share with one another”… is the Holy Spirit really saying both “yes – Christ” and “nah – not Christ”? That’s really what’s in play with the question.

annad347:

or if those answers are for their own glorification, so they can brag to the world they have all the answers.

Wow. Harsh. Is that really what you think I’m doing? Showing off? If you think that I’m saying “it’s all about me”, rather than “it’s all about doing what God wants”, then perhaps this thread has run its course.

The Holy Spirit is guiding us to what the Eucharist is, why it is important for us to partake in it. The Holy Spirit is guiding us both to say yes, Yes to Jesus . Yes, to Jesus when He says… “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

Ahh, but that’s the problem! Many Christians say “NO! No, it’s not Jesus. It’s just bread and wine.”

So, if you believe what you just wrote, then you have to admit that many Christians aren’t saying “yes to Jesus”. They’re saying yes to fellowship, perhaps, but not to Jesus in the Eucharist. That doesn’t make you scratch your head?

 

[annad347]

Wow. Harsh. Is that really what you think I’m doing? Showing off? If you think that I’m saying “it’s all about me”, rather than “it’s all about doing what God wants”, then perhaps this thread has run its course.

NO, that’s not what I meant… and I’m sorry you took it that way. I was thinking of people who are so determine they are the only way to salvation they forget about God. “Come to me I’ll show you the way. Come to me I know everything. Come to me I can guarantee you the answers you need to please God. Come to me, I’ll tell you God’s will for you. Come to me, you will be saved.” Then he/she shouts to heaven. “Lord look what I did I saved another soul. I’m good, high-five”… those are the people I was thinking about.

That is not you, not even close… I’m sorry if you took what I said to mean I was talking about you, I am sorry.

 

[annad347]

Rather, it was “are two different Christians, with two different sets of beliefs, both following the direction of the Holy Spirit?”

Yes, I knew what you meant; my answer is still yes. The only time a person is not listening to the Holy Spirit is if they’re beliefs are taking them away from God.

Like Baptism.

“baptism is merely a sign of an already-present disposition in the heart”…

I’m not sure what that means… but…

Jesus wants us to be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:19-20. The Bible teaches us that we were cleanse of our sins with baptism by John the Baptist. Luke 3:3, he baptized with water but Jesus baptize us with the Holy Spirit and fire… Matthew 3:11-15. The Bible teaches us that being baptized we die and then walk in a new life by the glory of the Father Romans 6:4

The main point the Bible teaches us that we are baptized after we’ve heard the Word of God and placed our faith in Jesus. Acts 1: 37-39 which means if anyone says that being baptized has no meaning, purpose, or is just a dunking in the water, isn’t paying attention to the Holy Spirit.

Baptism can be spiritual for some over an actual custom of being dunked in water because John the Baptist said that Jesus will baptize us with the Holy Spirit and fire… spiritual. If we are baptized as an infant or child, our rebirth, when we are saved by grace of God through faith in Jesus, our “second baptism”, our rebirth with Spirit would be spiritual without the dunking in water. Also, people might believe being baptized with the dunking in water is just a tradition that’s done in honor of Jesus, to show we want to be like Him. Since He was dunked in water, we should also be dunked in water.

Bottom line is God knows the truth to why we got baptized. He knows if we are doing it to be more like Jesus, to show Him we love Him and want to be obedient to Him, to glorify God, or for some other reason that has nothing to do with Him.

 

[annad347]

Same with the Eucharist.

So, if you believe what you just wrote, then you have to admit that many Christians aren’t saying “yes to Jesus”. They’re saying yes to fellowship, perhaps, but not to Jesus in the Eucharist. That doesn’t make you scratch your head?

They’re saying yes to fellowship with who? That’s making me scratch my head.

I believe people take the Eucharist also to be obedient to God… same as getting baptized.

If you take part in the Eucharist because Jesus said John 6:53-58 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them. they are being obedient to God by wanting to be one with Him, following the Holy Spirit.

If you take part in the Eucharist because Jesus said Luke 22:17-23 Do this in remembrance of me. each time they participate in the Eucharist they are being obedient to God, by remembering the new convent Jesus made with us. Following the Holy Spirit.

Participating in the Eucharist is saying yes to God. Says you want to be one with Him, you want Him to be part of you, want Him to know you will not turn from Him… and again bottom-line, God knows the truth. He knows if you are participating to glorify Him, obey His commands or for some other reason that has nothing to do with Him.

The Holy Spirit will always lead you to God’s truth, to live by God’s will. Two Christians with two different sets of beliefs can be following the Holy Spirit because their core belief are the same… to be obedient to God, to live by God’s will. God knows His children, He knows our needs and wants, especially when it comes to leading us to Him.

It’s when we do things, believe things that take us away from God that we have to watch each others backs, help each other get back on th correct path.

God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son to pay for the sins of man, who so ever believes in Him shall have every lasting life. When you put your faith in that truth, God has you ever step of way with the Holy Spirit.

 

[al2o3]

their core belief are the same

Hmmm! we are back to the core/non-core arguments earlier in the thread!! The problem is "who decides whats “core”? You - I dont think so. Me - I dont think so. Ahh Yes - the Holy Spirit. But that cant be - the Holy Spirit is Absolute Truth itself. It would be wrong to assign ambivalence/vagueness to the Third Person of God.

Anyway - I am just a follower of the thread and will continue watching and be educated by this conversation.

 

[al2o3]

The answer must be that authority that Christ commissioned while He was with us Matt16 13-20:
"…And I tell you, you are Peter,and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.’ 20……

Recognisable today as the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church - recognisable through the early centuries as “the only” arbiter of core and non-core beliefs of faith and morals - protected from the gates of hades as promised - and given the authority to “bind and loose”.

 

[annad347]

We’re talking about being lead by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Gorgias]

Yes, I knew what you meant; my answer is still yes. The only time a person is not listening to the Holy Spirit is if they’re beliefs are taking them away from God.

Like Baptism.

So… if two groups of Christians think that they’re listening to the Holy Spirit, but they differ on something like the understanding of baptism, then it’s clear to you that (at least) one of those groups isn’t actually “listening” to the Holy Spirit? OK, then… if that’s the case (and I agree with you that this is the case!), then how do we know which group – if any! – is actually “listening to the Holy Spirit”? When there’s a discrepancy, what’s the standard that we use to decide which is not following the Holy Spirit?

I’m not sure what that means… but…

It’s one of the positions that certain Christian groups hold, regarding baptism. (And yes… they think they’re following the Holy Spirit!)

John the Baptist said that Jesus will baptize us with the Holy Spirit and fire… spiritual.

Yeah, but Jesus told us to baptize with water. So… not merely spiritual.

Also, people might believe being baptized with the dunking in water is just a tradition that’s done in honor of Jesus

Would they be right, though?

Bottom line is God knows the truth to why we got baptized. He knows if we are doing it to be more like Jesus, to show Him we love Him and want to be obedient to Him, to glorify God, or for some other reason that has nothing to do with Him.

Great. So, then, as long as “why I got baptized” is all that matters, then I can baptize in Diet Pepsi, and not worry about baptizing “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Mt 28:19), and it would be all good… right?

They’re saying yes to fellowship with who? That’s making me scratch my head.

Fellowship with each other who are at the service. Not with God or Jesus – “vertically” – per se, but just with each other – “horizontally”.

If you take part in the Eucharist because Jesus said [John 6:53-58] Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them.

What if they don’t think it’s really His flesh and blood? If they think that it’s only a symbol?

 

[annad347]

… but they differ on something like the understanding of baptism, then it’s clear to you that (at least) one of those groups isn’t actually “listening” to the Holy Spirit?

Yes, if they believe baptism is not important to God, something He wants us to do, then they are not paying attention to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will always lead us to God’s will, what is obedient and pleasing to God.

… how do we know which group –is actually “listening to the Holy Spirit”? When there’s a discrepancy, what’s the standard that we use to decide which is not following the Holy Spirit?

Decides? What standards do you use to decide if a group of people is following the Holy Spirit or not?

The only way to know if someone is following the Holy Spirit is not how they live their life, but how they speak about God. 1 Corinthians
12:3 Not just what they say but how they say it, what they mean by what they say, and whether or not they truly believe what they say. This is probably the one case where words speak louder than actions. It’s through their words you can hear their love for God, their devotion to God, their knowledge that no matter what anyone says they know they are with God, because of their unconditional faith in Him.

It’s one of the positions that certain Christian groups hold regarding baptism…

I meant already-present disposition in the heart. Im not exactly sure what that means, so I can’t give an answer about someone’s position on that belief in regards to baptism…

Yeah, but Jesus told us to baptize with water. So… not merely spiritual.

For some Christians, especially Catholic’s or rather for any Christian who was baptized as a baby, how can there not be a spiritual baptism?

Think about it, when a person is baptized as a baby/child. they are not doing it because you are inspired by God’s Word. Have the desire to repent, want to be cleansed of sins, be reborn with Christ. You can only experience those feelings, make those choices as an adult.

And when as an adult, when you get that amazing revelation, that changes your heart, this rebirth of the Holy Spirit, if you was baptized as a child, can’t be baptized again, there’s only one baptism.

So, unless you lie about being baptized the first time… Your 2nd baptism would be more spiritual then the actual physical dunking in water. This 2nd baptism would just be between you and God.

A Confirmation, you participated in as a teenager reaffirms your baptism by you choosing to follow Jesus, when your heart changes because of the Word of God…but that’s not like renewing your wedding vows…not really the same (IMO).

Also, if a person believes being baptized by water is just a tradition to honor Jesus doesn’t mean it has no meaning to them, that it’s not very important. They are still honoring and obeying God.

 

[annad347]

Great. So, then, as long as “why I got baptized” is all that matters, then I can baptize in Diet Pepsi, and not worry about baptizing … right?

That is not what I meant and you know it. Nor did I give any indication that being baptized wasn’t an important path to God. God wants us to be baptized.

What I meant was… are you baptizing your child because it’s a family tradition to please the church, your parents, grandma, but in the back of your mind you’re like, ‘yea, yea’ okay let’s celebrate… as an adult are you being baptized so you can marry someone in a specific church, are doing it because you love someone or trying to please someone, but in the back of your mind you’re like happy now, okay let’s celebrate.

Were you even moved by the Word of God? Did they have any to meaning to you but you did it so you can say you did, to be part of a group? That’s what I meant when I said God knows the truth?

What if they don’t think it’s really His flesh and blood? If they think that it’s only a symbol?

Are the symbols any different than the ones used by Jesus Christ? Are the bread and wine representing anything different then what Jesus wanted them to represent when He feed the original 12 Apostle? Are they not obeying God by participating in the Eucharist? Honoring Jesus by remembering Him the way He wanted to be remembered? Luke 22:17-19

Are they not participating in the Eucharist as Paul taught them, for the reason Paul taught them to remember the new convent given to us in Jesus blood? How he taught with a clear conscience free of sin?1 Conrinthians 11:23-26

If they believe the bread and wine is the body and blood of Jesus like He said, participating with a clear conscience, because they love Jesus and want to be one with Him, why would God deny them, when they are doing as He asks, exactly how He said?

Unless they think it’s a lie, that the bread and wine is not the body and blood of Christ, to remember God’s convent with us how are they not listening the Holy Spirit?

Remeber the original 12 Apostles didnt understand the true meaning behind what Jesus said until after He died. Aat the time they participated because they loved and trusted Jesus, wanted to please, follow and be one with Jesus, today we participate for the same reason, for us bread and wine becomes the body and blood of God because we love and trust Him.

 

[Gorgias]

Yes, if they believe baptism is not important to God, something He wants us to do, then they are not paying attention to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will always lead us to God’s will, what is obedient and pleasing to God.

OK. We’re back to that. So, let’s address this single question, put it to bed, and then move on:

• Two groups of Christians each believe that they’re “paying attention to the Holy Spirit” and “following God’s will”.
  • One of these groups believes that baptism is “not important to God” – that is, that it’s not really a sacrament, but only a physical action that recognizes a spiritual event that has already occurred.
  • The other group believes that baptism is a sacrament – that it actually does wipe away sins and give grace!

So, then… what are you saying? That one group is mistaken in their belief that they’re “listening to the Holy Spirit” and “following God’s will”?

And, if that’s the case, how does one make the objective discernment that “this group has it right” and “that group has it wrong”?

And, if there isn’t an objective way to determine it, then aren’t we just left with a situation in which each group is saying “we’re right and ya’ll are the ones who are wrong!!”…?

Let’s see if we can’t bring this part of the discussion to a conclusion…

Decides? What standards do you use to decide if a group of people is following the Holy Spirit or not?

My take on it? They’re part of the Church that Jesus founded, with apostolic authority and the sacraments, and which has perdured for over two millennia.

The only way to know if someone is following the Holy Spirit is not how they live their life, but how they speak about God.

You haven’t helped your case or answered your own question, though! Namely: who decides whether they’re living their lives properly or speaking about God properly? Who has that authority, and from whence does it proceed? I know my answer…

I meant already-present disposition in the heart . Im not exactly sure what that means

Most Baptists believe that baptism isn’t required for salvation. Rather, they think that it is merely a public expression of the faith which a person already holds in their heart.

That is not what I meant and you know it.

I know. Just teasing. I think it’s the logical implication of what you said, though: if “why I got baptized” is all that matters, then the form and matter of baptism do not?

 

[annad347]

Let’s see if we can’t bring this part of the discussion to a conclusion…

Getting tired

So, then… what are you saying? That one group is mistaken in their belief that they’re “listening to the Holy Spirit” and “following God’s will”?

I’m saying The Holy Spirit will always lead us to do God’s will, and to do what is obedient and pleasing to God. If each group is participating in baptisms to be obedient to God, why would either group be wrong? Being baptized to be cleaned of sin. Being baptized to die and be reborn again in Christ. Being baptized to show everyone and God you are an obedient follower. If it’s done in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, what are you doing that’s wrong?

Baptists believe being baptized is merely a public expression of their faith which a person already holds in their heart… if that’s what Baptists believe that’s a pretty public expression of their faith. If its is by grace you have been saved through faith in God, then you are baptized as an expression of that faith … why would that not be pleasing to God?

It’s those who do not want to be baptized, feel they don’t need to be baptized, those who totally refuse being baptized, that are not listening to the Holy Spirit, those are the people we need to help, people who have not found God.

You haven’t helped your case or answered your own question, though! Namely: who decides whether they’re living their lives properly or speaking about God properly?

God?

1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says “Let Jesus be cursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit. Nor will they say anything that goes against the Word of God, say God lies, say there is another way to the Father other than Jesus.

People can act good, do good things, be the sweetest person in the world, but it’s what they say that matters. Why are they going to the church they attend? Why do they believe what they believe? Why do they understand scripture differently than you do? Why are they saying the prayers they are saying? Repenting their sins or not repenting their sins? Why are they acting differently from what they are saying about God?

When it’s about God, words speak louder than action…their words should then reflect their actions, so yes, I did answer the question.