Quick question about The Catechism of the Catholic Church

[annad347]

Who has that authority, and from whence does it proceed?

Depends on who’s doing the talking and what they are saying. And do their words proceed from the teaching of Jesus Christ, from God’s Truth, from the Holy Spirit, are they praising and glorifying God… just because someone is in a church that’s been around for a millennium, built on the back of Peter, doesn’t mean the person is following the Holy Spirit, just means they are in the church that’s been around for over a millennium. Especially if the reason they are in church means nothing. What if they believe it’s better to be safe then sorry.

The church is protected, God’s truth is protected, not the person.

I know. Just teasing. I think it’s the logical implication of what you said, though: if “why I got baptized” is all that matters, then the form and matter of baptism do not?

You’re cute… Some churches go out to a lake/the ocean to baptize their congregation, dunking them full body into the water. Some a Jacuzzi pool. Some churches sprinkle water over the forehead… maybe the specific form isn’t important, but being baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit does. The reason as to why you are baptized always matters.

So is this conversation over, it was hard but very interesting and fun… I learned a lot…thank you

 

[Gorgias]

I’m saying The Holy Spirit will always lead us to do God’s will, and to do what is obedient and pleasing to God.

OK. This part of the discussion might be complete. I keep asking the question, and you keep repeating a fairly non-responsive answer. It’s all good.

If each group is participating in baptisms to be obedient to God, why would either group be wrong? Being baptized to be cleaned of sin. Being baptized to die and be reborn again in Christ.

Because one group says that it means nothing. They literally teach that it doesn’t cleanse you of sin. They literally teach that it doesn’t cause a ‘rebirth in Christ’.

annad347:

If it’s done in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, what are you doing that’s wrong?

That’s why I keep quoting the Scripture passage to you – Christ tells us that this perspective is precisely mistaken! Matthew 7:22-23 says:

Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’

Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers’.

So… the mere assertion that “we did it in your name, Lord”, doesn’t suffice.

annad347:

People can act good, do good things, be the sweetest person in the world, but it’s what they say that matters.

OK… so, your answer to the question is that the authority to decide whether a person is in conformity with God’s law … is the individual himself? Do you recall the final sentence of the Book of Judges, and what a word of condemnation and disgust it was? “In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in their own sight.” (Judges 21:25). What the inspired writer was asserting there was that this was a bad thing and it led some to do things that were objectively wrong.

annad347:

Why do they understand scripture differently than you do?

I’m gonna try not and get snarky, but… the first thing that comes to mind is “I guess because we’re both following the Holy Spirit, and He wants me to believe that the Scripture is saying one thing and He wants them to believe that it’s saying the opposite?”

But… that makes no sense… right?

So… “why are they doing things differently?” To my mind, it’s because they’re following Judges 21:25. And that’s not a good thing.

annad347:

And do their words proceed from the teaching of Jesus Christ, from God’s Truth, from the Holy Spirit

Perfect answer! Now… how do we know that they’re doing that? Who gets to make that determination? Each individual person? Or someone vested with authority?

annad347:

The church is protected, God’s truth is protected, not the person.

That’s my point. Individuals are not protected with a charism to accurately interpret Scripture or declare doctrine.

annad347:

So is this conversation over, it was hard but very interesting and fun… I learned a lot…thank you

 

[annad347]

So is this conversation over, it was hard but very interesting and fun… I learned a lot…thank you

So don’t reply?

 

[Montrose]

So don’t reply?

I would say that your question “is this conversation over” is answered in the affirmative by the thumbs up!

 

[annad347]

@Montrose… I guess, your right but before we totally end our conversation, I have another question…

@Gorgias, do you think everything we discussed towards the end of this thread doesn’t apply to anyone in the Catholic church? About how do you know who is following the Holy Spirit, know who is doing the will of God, know this group has it right, that God is present?

There is a different between knowing you in a church with authority and knowing you’re in a church with authority… don’t you think?

 

[Montrose]

@Montrose… I guess, your right but before we totally end our conversation, I have another question…

@Gorgias, do you think everything we discussed towards the end of this thread doesn’t apply to anyone in the Catholic church? About how do you know who is following the Holy Spirit, know who is doing the will of God, know this group has it right, that God is present ?

There is a different between knowing you in a church with authority and knowing you’re in a church with authority… don’t you think?

What we do know is that Christ established only one Church and that was the Catholic Church. He entrusted it with the Deposit of Faith and gave it authority to teach in matters of faith and morals.
Teachings of the Church have the full authority of God behind them so when we follow the teachings of the Church we are being obedient to God. Before you say what about the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is God.

 

[annad347]

Before you say what about the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is God.

I know the Holy Spirit is God. I also know Jesus is God.

but that doesn’t answer the question… how do you know?

 

[Montrose]

but that doesn’t answer the question… how do you know?

How do I know what?

 

[Justin_Mary]

but that doesn’t answer the question… how do you know?

You can trace what you do know back as far as you can. If you can trace it all the way back to the beginning then it is true.

The Catholic understanding of the truth goes all the way back to Pentecost.

Every other “truth” has it’s origin after the reformation.

From Pentecost to the Reformation there was one truth. Since then many “truths” were created.

 

[Gorgias]

So don’t reply?

Not at all… if you’d like to continue, I’m game!

(I just think that I’m going to stop asking questions that you won’t directly answer, that’s all.)

@Gorgias, do you think everything we discussed towards the end of this thread doesn’t apply to anyone in the Catholic church?

Oh, by no means! There are, sadly, plenty of “Cafeteria Catholics” out there, who pick and choose what they will believe. However, that’s a different dynamic for a Catholic – we would want to continue catechizing a Catholic who is in need of a fuller understanding of his Church. For someone who is part of a community that abandoned the Church, though, it’s a different dynamic!

About how do you know who is following the Holy Spirit, know who is doing the will of God, know this group has it right, that God is present ?

I hold that Jesus created His church based on apostolic foundations, His teaching, the sacraments, and His grant of authority to the apostles. When I’m following that Church, then I know I’m on the right track; when I’m not, then I know I’ve strayed. That’s a concrete and measurable standard, and isn’t just “I feel it in my heart” or “I think that the Holy Spirit has inspired my personal decision”…!

There is a different between knowing you in a church with authority and knowing you’re in a church with authority… don’t you think?

I know that the Catholic Church, built on apostolic foundations, has divine authority given by Jesus. That’s my certainty!

 

[annad347]

(I just think that I’m going to stop asking questions that you won’t directly answer, that’s all.)

some of my answers might be considered anti-Catholic, so yes, I am careful about what I post… but I did give you an answer…. maybe not direct, then again maybe very direct.

God gave us the Holy Spirit to guide us to His will. To help us understand God’s will. To do what is pleasing to God, to be obedient to God. Is that not true?

So if it’s true the Holy Spirit would never guide us to do anything to take us away from God, if you are baptized to be like Jesus, why would that be wrong, to be pleasing to God, why would that be wrong… you are still cleansed of your sins when you repent, which you do when you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

Sounds very wham bamm, but its not, its a total rebirth, not just one thing, a complete transformation. You can’t do one without the other, one can’t have meaning but the other doesn’t.

If anyone thinks being baptized means nothing is wrong, so if someone is teaching that is not listening to the Holy Spirit or following the will of God.

But you can’t be baptized without repenting, and you can’t repent with out being baptized… and you can’t do either without the truth of God cutting you in the heart, filling you with the grace of God when you heard, believed and accepted Jesus is your Lord and Savior. Acts 28:37-41. You have to die and be reborn in Christ, to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

I might not be saying it right but you know what I mean.

… or “I think that the Holy Spirit has inspired my personal decision” …!

Why not? I’m not talking about feeling, the Holy Spirit is beyond feelings, He is God in you, why wouldn’t you think the Holy Spirit would inspire you to know God is present in the Catholic church?

Where does your certainty come from if not from the gift of the Holy Spirit, to know God’s truth when you hear it?

 

[Gorgias]

God gave us the Holy Spirit to guide us to His will. To help us understand God’s will. To do what is pleasing to God, to be obedient to God. Is that not true?

OK. So, I’m taking that to mean that you believe that anyone who says “I’m doing the will of the Holy Spirit” must, by virtue of that declaration, be doing exactly that? Or, does someone else have the right to say “you’ve got it wrong – you’re not doing the will of God”?

you are still cleansed of your sins when you repent, which you do when you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

OK, but that’s not at all what the Church teaches, nor is it what Jesus teaches. There’s nowhere in the Bible that says that “accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior” is what “cleanses [you] of your sins”. Baptism, on the other hand…!

If anyone thinks being baptized means nothing is wrong, so if someone is teaching that is not listening to the Holy Spirit or following the will of God.

Perfect!

OK – so, someone can say “I’m following God’s will” and be wrong. Who has the authority to make that decision and express that claim, then?

Where does your certainty come from if not from the gift of the Holy Spirit, to know God’s truth when you hear it?

My certainty doesn’t proceed from my personal judgment (either of my opinion of an action or statement, or of my possession of gifts of the Holy Spirit), which is what this seems to be asserting. My certainty proceeds from Jesus’ creation of the Church and in following what that divinely authorized institution says.

 

[annad347]

OK. So, I’m taking that to mean that you believe that anyone who says “I’m doing the will of the Holy Spirit” must, by virtue of that declaration, be doing exactly that?

No, we both know that isn’t true. A person can appear to be a perfectly, righteous, honest, trusting person but is really a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

That’s why I said we have to really listen to what people are saying, understand what they are saying, question what they say, see if they’re words match their actions, to know if God is present in their thought, words and actions.

And of course, you have a right to say “you’ve got it wrong – you’re not doing the will of God”? Then the person you’re speaking too, will look at you, see if God is in you. If you have the Holy Spirit in you. They will listen to your words, and watch your actions (this is the faith and works come in play). You might be exactly who the Holy Spirit wants his person to listen too, pay attention too, because God is using you to help one of His children. I hope that wasn’t confusing… it sounded perfect in my head.

That’s why God gifts us the Holy Spirit, to teach, to guide, to help us. To know the people who speaks His Word are truly speaking His Word.

Why do you think many people believed the Apostles when they spoke… it wasn’t what they were saying it was speaking the Word of God through the Holy Spirit. They weren’t speaking they’re own words, they we’re speaking God’s. The people they spoke too, didn’t know anything about history, about authority, all they were only listening too by word of mouth (see I’m learning ) was being spoken to them by strangers, fishermen, common ordinary people, but their what they spoke had such an impact, when that when the people heard them, they were cut to the heart Act 2:37 - 41

…Baptism, on the other hand…

It’s not just one thing that cleans you of your sins… it starts with hearing the Word of God, accepting the Word of God (Jesus).

Actuality the Apostles teach it is the blood of Jesus that cleans us of our sins. 1 John 1:5-10, 1 Peter 1:19
Hebrews 10:4-18

John the Baptiste said He is the Lamb of God… John 1:29

It’s all connected, not just one things, but it starts with you accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior. You heard the Word of God, you Repent, you are Baptized, you receive the Holy Spirit, you Confess your sins… you die and are born again. I might not have said it in the correct order but you know what I mean.

 

[annad347]

… My certainty proceeds from Jesus’ creation of the Church and in following what that divinely authorized institution says.

Then we’re back to the question I asked before, **how do you know? **

How do you know you are following what the divinely authorized institution says is God’s Word? Basically, to be direct, how do you know its true?

I answered this question, and you can’t say you are following the Holy Spirit because you said that’s not how you know… so how do you know if not by the gift of the Spirit?

Keep in mind I never said being Catholic was wrong, I said I don’t agree with everything, but never said they are wrong, which is why I ask a lot of questions, like what exactly is the Catechism of the Catholic church.

 

[Gorgias]

No, we both know that isn’t true. A person can appear to be a perfectly, righteous, honest, trusting person but is really a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

No, no… that’s not what I’m asking. I’m not asking about a person who knows they’re acting contrary to God’s will – I’m asking about a person who thinks they’re following the Holy Spirit, but is mistaken. You just said that there exist such people. So… who has the ability / authority / skills to make the judgment that a person is mistaken like this?

And of course, you have a right to say “you’ve got it wrong – you’re not doing the will of God”?

Of course. But, that’s not what I’m asking, either. I mean, anyone can give you their opinion, but I’m not asking about opinions – I’m asking about a valid assessment that a person is on the wrong track. Who can make that call?

That’s why God gifts us the Holy Spirit, to teach, to guide, to help us. To know the people who speaks His Word are truly speaking His Word.

So: I could sit here and – from the depths of my heart and soul, believing that I’m truly following God and the promptings of the Holy Spirit – tell you something, and you can say – from the depths of your heart and soul – “actually, you’re wrong”? How do you know that this wouldn’t just be your opinion…?

It’s not just one thing that cleans you of your sins… it starts with hearing the Word of God, accepting the Word of God (Jesus).

That’s not what the Bible says! It tells us that whole households were baptized. Catholics might point out that this naturally implies that children and infants were baptized, but I think there’s a stronger point to be made here: in the Greco-Roman context, the father (the ‘paterfamilias’) was the absolute authority in the household. What he said, was law. So, what we’re seeing in the Bible isn’t that individuals “started with… accepting the Word of God”. Rather, their husband / father / master said “get yourself baptized”, and they said “yes, sir!” … and their life of faith began with that baptism (which was, of course, both valid and efficacious).

It’s all connected, not just one things, but it starts with you accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

Not in the Bible, it doesn’t. At least, not always…

 

[Justin_Mary]

Why do you think many people believed the Apostles when they spoke… it wasn’t what they were saying it was speaking the Word of God through the Holy Spirit. They weren’t speaking they’re own words, they we’re speaking God’s.

Interesting question. The people listened to Moses, who gave them the law, hundreds of years before. They didn’t listen to the prophets, who spoke God’s judgement in their time.

 

[Dlee]

As a convert to Catholicism, I see the Catechism as a great gift to the Church. I would say it defines Catholic teachings and beliefs. You have your Bible - Holy Scripture - and then the Catechism as a companion to flesh out what the Bible and Catholic Church is teaching. A Protestant might consider it as an authoritative commentary.

 

[annad347]

… I’m asking about a person who thinks they’re following the Holy Spirit, but is mistaken. You just said that there exist such people. So… who has the ability / authority / skills to make the judgment that a person is mistaken like this?

I said anyone who says “I’m doing the will of the Holy Spirit” must, by virtue of that declaration, be doing exactly that, can actually be a wolf in sheep’s clothing. You have to be able to recognize God’s Truth in their words… and the only way know God’s Truth is through the gift of the Holy Spirit within you.

Without the Holy Spirit, how do you know the person teaching you about God, isn’t mistaken?
You have to be able to recognize the Holy Spirit in the person because we are not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual things to those who are spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:12–13.

If you can not recognize the Holy Spirit of God in them, then what exactly are they interpreting to you?

So: I could sit here and – from the depths of my heart and soul, believing that I’m truly following God and the promptings of the Holy Spirit – tell you something, and you can say – from the depths of your heart and soul – “actually, you’re wrong”? How do you know that this wouldn’t just be your opinion…?

Isn’t that’s a question every Christian has to ask themselves every day, if not at least once in their lives?

• Am I truly following the Word of God, God’s Truth, the Holy Spirit, God or just following someone’s opinion?
• Is the Holy Spirit leading me to God, or am I following what someone says is leading me to God?
• Am I following God or someone’s opinion of God?

It doesn’t matter what church you go attend. Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Protestant…. you are the only one who can know (besides God) who you are truly following and why… or in your specific case, who’s authority you are following God’s or someone’s opinion this is God.

I know it sounds like I’m against being Catholic or denying their divine authority given to them by Jesus on the back of Peter… but I’m not. What I’m saying is that if you dont know that the Holy Spirit is leading the church, leading the leaders of the church and guiding you to the church… if you can not recognize the Holy Spirit in the Church that has divine authority given to them by Jesus… how do you know you are truly following God, know God is present?

You can’t just go by what they say, you have to know… the only way to know is through the power of the Holy Spirit, cause without the Spirit, how are you not just following someone’s opinion?

 

[annad347]

… and their life of faith began with that baptism (which was, of course, both valid and efficacious).

how would you know it was valid and efficacious, if the person never acknowledges, wants or loves God. If the person is never reborn with the Holy Spirit, if his/her life is exactly the same as before, after the baptism.

Not in the Bible, it doesn’t. At least, not always…

but most of the time, even if the whole house was baptized, someone in that house heard the Word of God.

by the way, @Gorgias sorry it takes so long for me to reply to you.

 

[Gorgias]

You have to be able to recognize God’s Truth in their words… and the only way know God’s Truth is through the gift of the Holy Spirit within you.

Oh! So… you’re saying that Jesus didn’t create an authoritative body to resolve these kinds of disputes? That Jesus said “each of you, individually, has that authority, by the gift of the Holy Spirit”?

Isn’t that’s a question every Christian has to ask themselves every day, if not at least once in their lives?

Hang on, though – you’ve changed the dynamic! It isn’t “I need to sit and ask myself these questions” – the question was “if you told me that I wasn’t really following God’s will, would that be valid and authoritative or just your personal opinion?” (And, as a follow-up: if just an opinion, then is there anywhere Jesus has given us to whom we can appeal for an authoritative judgment?)

if you can not recognize the Holy Spirit in the Church that has divine authority given to them by Jesus… how do you know you are truly following God, know God is present?

By the same token: how would you know that it isn’t just you who are mistaken in your analysis? That is, that the Church really is what Jesus had in mind, but it’s just you personally who are having a hard time recognizing it?

how would you know it was valid and efficacious, if the person never acknowledges, wants or loves God.

A sacrament is a sacrament. If it’s valid, then it’s valid. There was a controversy way back in the beginning of the Church – some folks said that sacraments performed by certain folks weren’t valid. The Church said “no… valid sacraments are valid sacraments. Period.”

Now… “efficacious”? That depends on a person and their interior disposition.

but most of the time, even if the whole house was baptized, someone in that house heard the Word of God.

Fair enough. Yet, that isn’t the claim that many Protestant denominations make, in the context of saying that Catholic infant baptism is wrong. After all, I could say “the parents heard the Word of God and therefore baptized their child”, and there would be Protestants (who honestly think they’re following the will of God, remember?!?!?) who say “nope; not valid! you must personally accept Jesus into your heart.”

by the way, @Gorgias sorry it takes so long for me to reply to you.

No worries! We’re all pretty busy, these days!!!