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Justin_Mary
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From The Ascent of Mt Carmel
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annad347
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I don’t think that’s what said, please read it again… I asked how do you know.
It was St Paul, who wrote in his Epistle to the Corinthians, when we have the Holy Spirit, we can understand others who teach us by the gift of the Holy Spirit. He explained, in his letter, no one comprehends what is truly God’s except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the gifts bestowed on us by God. And we speak of these things in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual things to those who are spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:10 –13
Jesus said, John 14:26 the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you. He also said, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own, but will speak whatever He hears, and He will declare to you the things that are to come. John 16:12-13
Jesus promised God’s Sprit to help us, Paul explained God’s Spirit will help us. So, when Jesus created an authoritative body of people to help us understand we are following God’s will, what other way can we recognize, understand or learn from them except through the power of the Holy Spirit?
Did I say you weren’t following God’s will or did I ask, how do you know you are following God’s will?
You want me understand you are following the will of God but you tell me it’s not by feelings, or the guidance of the Holy Spirit… so how do you know? Then you tell me that you follow the church Jesus created on apostolic foundations, His teachings, the sacraments and His grant of authority to the apostles, but you’re not following guidance of the Holy Spirit, so how do you know?
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annad347
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GOD
Jesus says: John 14:13-14 in my name you ask me for anything, I will do it… if any of you is lacking in wisdom, ask God, who gives to all generously and ungrudgingly, and it will be given you. James 1:5-6.
It’s not my opinion. It’s one of God’s promises.
You do know I can ask you the exact same question?
Please explain how? What makes it valid? What does it mean its valid? If a person is never reborn in Christ, what is valid?
Please explain that to me… the validity of a sacrament, if God isn’t acknowledged by the recipient.
Someone even posted that a priest doesn’t have to believe in the validity of a sacrament for it to be valid… how, does that make sense?
Lutherans (at least the church I attend) preform infant baptisms.
A husband/master hears the Word of God then has his entire household baptized to bring everyone to God. An adult hears the Word of God gets baptized to bring himself to God.
Both are following the Holy Spirit, being obedient to God… who exactly is wrong?
Besides, you always have to personally accept Jesus in order to Jesus.
@Justin_Mary - I don’t understand what you posted, I’m sorry.
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Gorgias
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So, you said that the “only way we know” is through “the Holy Spirit within you.” In other words, the only path to knowledge is subjective. My response is that this isn’t at all what Jesus gives us! He does give us an objective way to know – He gives His Church, in which He invests authority and the divine proxy to judge!
So, rather than say “I can’t tell if someone is following God’s will or not, other than hoping the Spirit will tell me”, I’d say “look at Mt 18 or Acts 5!” There, we see the nascent Church receiving the authority and then later, exercising it! That’s how we know! Through the Church Jesus gave us!
And yet, that’s not all that Paul had to say on the subject, is it? Yes, he’s telling us that it is the Spirit who inspires, and for those of us who have received the Spirit, there is the possibility of understanding. Yet, when he talks about the Judaizers, he upbraids the community for listening to a Gospel that was different from the one he himself taught! In other words, they weren’t able to distinguish true teaching from false! At that point, what did Paul say? “Oh, that’s ok, guys – you are the final arbitrator and you get to decide what’s right and what’s incorrect”? No way! He steps up, utilizing the authority he has as an apostle – that is, with that ‘magisterial’ teaching authority present in the Church – and tells them what’s right, and tells them to not listen to what’s wrong!
This is my whole point: there’s not a subjective standard that each of us operates under! Rather, there’s an objective standard: the authority of the Church. It was given to the Church to teach and to define what the correct teaching is, and not to each of us individually!
Your quotes from John talk to us only about what true teaching is; it doesn’t talk to the question at hand – discerning whether arbitrary teaching is true or false. We can use the John passages to reassure ourselves that true teaching can be believed, but it doesn’t insure that our personal judgment will always be correct.
Through the teaching authority of the Church, which has been authoritatively and divinely given to them.
I’m following the teaching of the Church, which is guided by the Holy Spirit!
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Gorgias
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The context of that part of John 14 is all about the Holy Spirit. Keep reading in the chapter. It’s all about asking for the gift of the Holy Spirit, and it will be given!
In James 1, he’s telling us that when we encounter difficulties in our faith, to call out to God, who will bolster our faith with the ‘wisdom’ to persevere!
So… I think you’re proof-texting a bit, and over-construing these promises.
You can, and I’d have a Scriptural answer, straight from the mouth of Jesus: I know that the gates of hell will not prevail over the Church that Jesus founded – the one with apostolic foundation and continued leadership, and the sacraments, and the divine authority to teach – because Jesus promised that to this Church. (Not any church, mind you, since that wasn’t the promise – Jesus promised it to Peter and the eleven, and commissioned them to do it, and they have.)
A sacrament is valid if the person performing it has the authority to perform it (e.g., a priest for reconciliation or the Eucharist, a bishop for confirmation or holy orders), and if the matter is valid (water for baptism, wheat bread and grape wine for the Eucharist), and the ‘form’ of the sacrament is correct (e.g., the words “I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”), and if the minister intends to do what the Church intends by the sacrament.
If you have these things, then the sacrament is ‘valid’. It’s real, and it has effects.
A priest shouldn’t attempt to baptize an adult who is not asking for the sacrament. If the person to be baptized “doesn’t acknowledge God”, then there shouldn’t even be an attempt at baptism.
There’s a fine line there. But, it’s a matter of intent: if he has the authority, and he intends to do it, and he does it properly, then it’s real. The priest’s personal spirituality doesn’t come into play. If it did, we’d be in real trouble, since people would say “well, Fr Alphonse was at my Mass, and I don’t think he’s a good Christian, so I had to go again to Fr Bartholomew’s Mass, since he seems like a better guy.”
??? Was that a typo?
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annad347
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Besides, you always have to personally accept Jesus in order to receive Jesus.
My posts have scripture back-up
My posts have scripture back-up
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Justin_Mary
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Exactly …
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annad347
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There’s no need to be condescending. I believe I’m being respectful to you, if not please tell me.
What I didn’t understand is you think I’m so blinded by my desires, my soul is so clouded in darkness, that I couldn’t see the truth even if its presented to me… what is my desire that its clouded by evil?
You think I have a dark soul, that I can’t see past it even if the truth is presented to me… @Gorgias thinks I’m wrong because I trust the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
I thought we were having a conversation to understand each other… I guess not… too bad it was fun, but I did learn something, be happy about bit of information, thank you.
now, I’m guessing, you’ll thinking she blinded and can’t accept the truth that she’s wrong… keep in mind I never said I was right, just what I believe.
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Justin_Mary
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Interesting that you took that as condescending
I think it would be beneficial for everyone to read/listen to The Ascent of Mt Carmel it details the spiritual journey. He describes how the Holy Spirit leads us, but also the pitfalls & obstacles that we will face. Then he tells us how to overcome these obstacles.
I think we all have darkened souls & in his mercy Our Father has given us examples throughout history of what we can be. Our Blessed Mother first & foremost. Conceived without sin, she conceived & bore Jesus in her body. She is our perfect example, the perfect disciple, the heavenly Jerusalem, our destination.
St John the Baptiste & St Joseph next, sanctified in the womb.
Then all the other Saints born like you & I with the mark of original sin. Washed by the waters of Baptism, matured in the Spirit & like St Paul persevered to the end.
When you’re in it, it’s hard to see. But you & Gorgias have been talking in circles. If that’s enjoyable to you, have at it.
If you want to know how to navigate the spiritual life, prayerfully listen to The Ascent of Mt Carmel
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Montrose
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Are you saying that Joseph was born free from original sin? That is not a Church teaching or even tradition.
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annad347
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Yes it was condescending, especially since you did answered me in a way I expected, a way that can lead to an interesting conversation…
The one word answer just said to me, because of the conversation that’s happening on this thread, of course you don’t understand, look at what you believe… you know what I mean.
It can be hard to figure out what people are actually saying on a message board… so do you now understand how I thought you were being condescending to me.
and yes, I’m starting to realize @Gorgias and I are going in circles.
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annad347
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See… saying this makes me want to read The Ascent of Mt Carmel. I never said following the Holy Spirit was easy, it’s very, very hard… now I know I’m not alone.
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Gorgias
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Ahh, got it.
Except I think you’re misinterpreting them. (You could always say the same thing about me, too, I guess…)
No, I trust the Holy Spirit, too. I just think that we weren’t given a purely subjective means of knowing the truth. (We kinda have seen the fruits of that point of view in the way Protestantism has splintered into divergent groups in just 500 years.). I believe that there’s an objective authority, given to us as such by Jesus – the Church!
We kinda are. We’re sticking to what we’re saying, and I feel like I can’t get you to answer the questions I’m asking. I ask “objective method?” and you answer “personal subjective guidance of the HS.”
Hopefully, he means “John the Baptist, sanctified in the womb”.Justin_Mary:
Are you saying that Joseph was born free from original sin?
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Justin_Mary
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Some believe St Joseph was also sanctified in the womb, like John the Baptist. I believe mostly Eastern though.
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Gorgias
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Really? I’d never heard that, before! On what basis is the claim made, and to what end?
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annad347
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the church following the Holy Spirit is objective, but me following the Holy Spirit is subjective… really?
My beliefs come from the same place as the church, our faith in God, prayer and scripture.
How is one based on facts and the other on personal opinion when they come from the same place?
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Justin_Mary
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Because we’re simple creatures easily led astray. Discerning the Holy Spirit is very difficult when we have so many influences on us. Natural as well as spiritual.
However, when we recognize the Church, which we can see, it’s easier to discern the Spirit whom we cannot see.
One of the criteria the Church uses to discern if modern apparitions are valid is by comparing it to the deposit of faith. No apparition from God, or message from God is going to reveal anything new about God. Everything God wishes to be revealed has been revealed in the person of Jesus Christ.
& just as an example I can’t understand the Holy Spirit leading someone believe communion in the Lutheran, Anglican, or Methodist tradition is the same as communion in the Catholic/Orthodox tradition, when the Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist tradition explicitly state they are not.
Maybe I’ve misunderstood you.
Long Story Short, the Church gauges the working of the Holy Spirit against centuries of His work. We have only our lifetime & we’re confused about who the spirit is & how the spirit works for most of that time.
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Gorgias
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Umm… yeah. That’s the definition of what “subjective” means, isn’t it? That it’s you, personally applying a personal assessment? That’s literally subjective…!!!
Because we’re talking about making judgment calls. One entity (the Church) is divinely charged and authorized to make these decisions. Individuals are not.
Let’s take an example: let’s suppose that you see a crime happening and decide that the criminal deserves the death penalty, so you shoot him. What’s the name for that act? Alternately, let’s suppose that the courts find him guilty, sentence him to death, and carry out the sentence. What’s the name for that act? Are the two different?
(I would say ‘yes’ – one is vigilantism and the other is legal execution. The difference is that one is carried out personally and without authorization, and the other is carried out by the group who has objectively been given proper authority to do so.)
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annad347
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I’m suppose to know the decisions they are authorized to make for me is God’s Truth without the power of the Holy Spirit?
I’m suppose to understand what they are saying to me about God’s will, tell me I’m on the path to God without the power of the Holy Spirit?
For the crimes mentioned:
- is murder
- is justice
apples and oranges, it’s not the same things.
Subjective is based on opinions.
When I say, I’m following the Holy Spirit comes from the same place, as the church following the Holy Spirit is we both know the fact that scripture, our faith in the Holy Spirit, our faith in Jesus and our faith in God and God’s Word are God’s Truth.
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Gorgias
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Yes. You know it not because you’re being inspired to know it, but because you know Jesus said it.
You believe it because of the source it comes from – Jesus, and the Church He gave us to fill precisely that role in our lives!
That’s the whole point! It’s the same activity (killing a criminal), but in one case, an individual takes that authority on for himself, without the grant of authority to do so! You’ve got it!!!
Again… you’ve got it! We know objectively that Christ gave that authority to the Church! And, we know that when a person says – on their own perception of their own authority – “I’m doing what God wants”, then it’s their opinion that they’re acting in the Holy Spirit! That’s exactly the point!
The difference is that the Church has been given divine authority to make that statement, whereas you and I have not.
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