Quick question about The Catechism of the Catholic Church

[Gorgias]

and who is giving the credentials to the person who has the credentials you are placing your trust in… would He happen to be Jesus?

Yep. He gave them to some, but not others. I’m going with the ‘credentialed’ teaching authority.

Which to another question… if the Apostles are given their authority by Jesus, and we trust, Jesus how can they then teach us not to trust Jesus, when Jesus is the One who gives the authority to those who are teach us they have the authority to teach us?

The apostles absolutely taught us to ‘trust Jesus’. However, they also taught us “avoid false teaching, even from folks who claim they’re teaching what Jesus taught.”

So did Paul or any of the Apostles for that matter, teach us not to trust God ?

They taught us “don’t trust everyone who claims to be accurately representing Jesus’ teaching.”

 

[Gorgias]

head-table BANG

LOL. Me too…

We apparently approach the issue and ask the question in different ways. It seems that, from your perspective, it’s sufficient to identify that Christ is with us. From mine, it’s important to note that Christ chose a particular body and particular authority for His Church.

To-may-to, to-mah-to? I think there’s a distinct difference of opinion here, to tell the truth…

 

[annad347]

I don’t doubt that the Holy Spirit is leading you to the Lutheran & the Catholic Church. I don’t know why he would but who am I (or anyone) to question God’s counsel?

that’s all I was saying to begin with… thank you for hearing me.

To-may-to, to-mah-to? I think there’s a distinct difference of opinion here, to tell the truth…

okay shrug

I say God guides us to His truth and His will through the power of the Holy Spirit with in us.

You say the Church guides us to God’s truth and His will through specific people with authority through the power of the Holy Spirit with in them.

Tomayto - Tomahto… okay, so should we call the whole thing off… and leave our paths in the hands of God?

 

[Julius_Caesar]

To may to - To mah to… okay, so should we call the whole thing off… and leave our paths in the hands of God?

The heart is deceitful above all else, saith the Prophet.

One can be convinced that God is with them and be proven wrong the next moment. Like Joseph, or Peter.

 

[Gorgias]

I say God guides us to His truth and His will through the power of the Holy Spirit with in us.

I agree with that statement. However, it’s not complete without a discussion of whether God guides all who call out to Him. Jesus says “no”. In fact, Jesus gives a means through which people can be guided to God – the Church. In your discussion of soteriology, the Church doesn’t even appear. Why is that?

 

[annad347]

The heart is deceitful above all else, saith the Prophet…

Link to whole passage, if you want to read more than what I posted - Jeremiah 17:5-10

Thus, says the Lord: Cursed are those who trust in mere mortals and make mere flesh their strength, whose hearts turn away from the LORD. They shall be like a shrub in the desert, and shall not see when relief comes. They shall live in the parched places of the wilderness, in an uninhabited salt land.

Blessed are those who trust in the Lord, whose trust is the LORD. They shall be like a tree planted by water, sending out its roots by the stream. It shall not fear when heat comes, and its leaves shall stay green; in the year of drought it is not anxious, and it does not cease to bear fruit.

The heart is devious above all else; it is perverse—who can understand it? I the Lord test the mind and search the heart, to give to all according to their ways, according to the fruit of their doings.

If the heart is deceitful, then heart of man is also deceitful, which mean the only true place for my faith is God, who is always with me through the Holy Spirit and is never deceitful.

… In fact, Jesus gives a means through which people can be guided to God

– the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit of God guides us to the Church. not the other way around, the Apostles teach us without the Holy Spirit working in us you can not even understand what is in the Church.

Link to whole passage, if you want to read more than what I posted 1 Corinthians 2:14-15

For what human being knows what is truly human except the human spirit that is within? So also no one comprehends what is truly God’s except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the gifts bestowed on us by God. And we speak of these things in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual things to those who are spiritual.

Those who are unspiritual do not receive the gifts of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to them, and they are unable to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. Those who are spiritual discern all things, and they are themselves subject to no one else’s scrutiny.

that’s why I believe only the Holy Spirit can lead me to God’s Truth.

you’re Tomayto - Tomahto is whether or not the Holy Spirit guides us or specific people with the Holy Spirit who guide us… placing our faith in God or placing our faith in specific people who have God’s trust.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

If the heart is deceitful, then heart of man is also deceitful, which mean the only true place for my faith is God, who is always with me through the Holy Spirit and is never deceitful .

The same God you trust in said to His Apostles: “He who receives you.receives Me.”

You cannot trust God and disregard His messengers.

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

In fact, Jesus gives a means through which people can be guided to God

– the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit of God guides us to the Church.

Now it all makes sense! As a Catholic, I think I’d agree to the statement “the Holy Spirit of God guides us to the Catholic Church”, but not “…to the Episcopalian church” or “…to the Lutheran church” or “…to any one of the thousands of little local non-denominational churches.” On the other hand, my understanding of the Protestant position is that all of us, in aggregate and considered together, is “the Church.”

To make any other claim, then – that a particular group cannot break away from them, or that other groups of Christians aren’t really ‘church’ – would have the practical effect of nullifying their own claim to legitimacy. After all, if Pastor Bob down the street isn’t really ‘church’ because he broke away from us or because he’s teaching incorrect doctrine would mean that they themselves have no justification from breaking with the Catholic Church and creating their own new doctrine.

So, in order to say that they themselves are a legitimate part of “the Church”, they are forced into saying that just about anybody who calls themself ‘Christian’ or who teaches erroneous doctrine is valid, as such.

I still think that this creates cognitive dissonance, though. What it ends up implying is that the Holy Spirit is leading some to believe that the Eucharist is truly the Body/Blood/Soul/Divinity of Christ but leading others to believe it’s not. Or, that the Holy Spirit leads Catholics to think that marriage is indissoluble, but other denominations to think that divorce is OK.

So… do we lay the blame for competing and irreconcilable doctrines on the Holy Spirit, who “guides us to the Church”?

you’re To may to - To mah to is whether or not the Holy Spirit guides us or specific people with the Holy Spirit who guide us… placing our faith in God or placing our faith in specific people who have God’s trust.

Let’s widen that perspective, though: it’s not “specific people” so much as it is “specific teachings”, isn’t it?

 

[annad347]

You cannot trust God and disregard His messengers

That’s not what I said, that’s what you said when you said my heart is deceitful.

If my heart can lie to me, so can the heart of man, unless we are guided by the Holy Spirit. God sent His men to teach us His truth, but remember, He never sent them alone. He commanded them to wait for the Holy Spirit, who will guide them and remind them of all He taught. We recognize them by the same Spirit, God commanded them to give us when hear, accept and want His Word to become a part of us.

God is working in us.

Do you need the scripture to understand, that’s why I say I’m not following my heart, I’m following the Holy Spirit who guides me to God’s Truth… that’s also one of God’s messages.

 

[annad347]

So, in order to say that they themselves are a legitimate part of “the Church”, they are forced into saying that just about anybody who calls them self ‘Christian’ or who teaches erroneous doctrine is valid, as such.

Doesn’t depend the exact errors in those doctrines those other churches are claiming to be valid or invalid, and who’s making the claim and why?

Isn’t that what the Leaders of each church trying to do when they get together to discuss those doctrines, to make sure they are/should be considered valid. It seems Leaders of each churches is trying to find what unifies us in God, more then what separates us. Isn’t what unifies us in God is one of the reasons Catholics other churches who do teach God’s Truth brothers and sisters in Christ?

So… do we lay the blame for competing and irreconcilable doctrines on the Holy Spirit, who “guides us to the Church”?

The blame is on man, who teaches the truth in the importance of the Eucharist. Man can not read the hearts and mind of the person taking in the Eucharist so they have to have faith the person who is receiving the Eucharist is receiving in through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

They have to have faith through the Holy Spirit the person receiving the Eucharist understands the importance of the Eucharist becoming the body and blood of Christ, it’s meaning, and your desire to become one with Christ.

The importance to let God know you are not turning from Him like some people did when Jesus, “Truly, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you." and that you truly understood what Jesus meant.

God knows the truth to why you are taking the Eucharist, isn’t God knowing your heart and mind more important then whether or not are in a Catholic or Lutheran church especially if in your heart you are a liar.

Besides Lutheran have told me to them, bread and wine becomes the body and blood of Christ, Catholic’s say that’s impossible.

Let’s widen that perspective, though: it’s not “specific people” so much as it is “specific teachings”, isn’t it?

THAT’S WHAT I SAID, MONTHS AGO!!!

 

[Gorgias]

Doesn’t depend the exact errors in those doctrines those other churches are claiming to be valid or invalid, and who’s making the claim and why?

In a certain sense, no – it doesn’t depend on the particular content. The argument is that they’re not invested with the authority (since that was given to the Apostles and the Church Jesus founded), so any deviation is both erroneous and inauthentic.

Isn’t that what the Leaders of each church trying to do when they get together to discuss those doctrines, to make sure they are/should be considered valid. It seems Leaders of each churches is trying to find what unifies us in God, more then what separates us.

Except that they don’t have any kind of grant of divine authority. The Scriptural example isn’t “here, go found your own community and think up doctrines on your own initiative”; it’s “I’m an apostle, and on that authority, I’m raising an instance of the Church here; now… follow the doctrines of the Church.”

They have to have faith through the Holy Spirit the person receiving the Eucharist understands the importance of the Eucharist becoming the body and blood of Christ, it’s meaning, and your desire

That’s not what St Paul teaches! He explicitly teaches, in the Bible, that folks who do not discern the Body and Blood are eating and drinking condemnation on themselves. He’s explicitly not having “faith through the Holy Spirit that the person receiving the Eucharist understands” – he’s correcting them when they’re not doing so!

Besides Lutheran have told me to them, bread and wine becomes the body and blood of Christ, Catholic’s say that’s impossible.

That’s an interesting discussion in and of itself. It speaks, again, to authority and to the identification of whom exactly Jesus authorized to confect the Eucharist.

THAT’S WHAT I SAID, MONTHS AGO!!!

Yeah… but when the specific teachings differ from the Catholic Church’s, that’s when the issues of “authority” and “guarantee of accurate teaching” arise.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Do you need the scripture to understand, that’s why I say I’m not following my heart, I’m following the Holy Spirit who guides me to God’s Truth… that’s also one of God’s messages.

Would the Holy Spirit guide a person away from Christ’s Body?

 

[annad347]

In a certain sense, no – it doesn’t depend on the particular content . The argument is that they’re not invested with the authority (since that was given to the Apostles and the Church Jesus founded), so any deviation is both erroneous and inauthentic.

we already talked about this… which lead us to the Holy Spirit discussion.

Except that they don’t have any kind of grant of divine authority. The Scriptural example isn’t “here, go found your own community and think up doctrines on your own initiative”; it’s “I’m an apostle, and on that authority, I’m raising an instance of the Church here; now… follow the doctrines of the Church.”

When I say Leaders of church, I’m including Catholic leaders… I didn’t realize I had to be specific.

All Leaders of All Churches, Baptist, Lutherans, Methodist, Catholic, they get together to discuss what unites all in God… so who with authority are you talking about?

That’s not what St Paul teaches! He explicitly teaches, in the Bible, that folks who do not discern the Body and Blood are eating and drinking condemnation on themselves

You are saying the same thing I just said

Paul does not have the ability to read people’s mind, to know the truth in a person’s heart and mind to know they are taking the Eucharist honestly?

He said, (27-32)"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For all who eat and drink eat and drink judgment against themselves. For this reason many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. But if we judged ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world. 1 Corinthians 11

besides that part about giving the Eucharist in faith was told to me by a Catholic priest to explain how does a priest know I’m not a sinner if a priest doesn’t know me at all, when I take the Eucharist.

That’s an interesting discussion in and of itself. It speaks, again, to authority and to the identification of whom exactly Jesus authorized to confect the Eucharist.

isn’t this what started us on the how do you know question, which lead to the Holy Spirit discussion?

Yeah… but when the specific teachings differ from the Catholic Church’s, that’s when the issues of “authority” and “guarantee of accurate teaching” arise.

also already discussed this… look for the 1st “How do you know” post.

and we used scripture in the discussion but you said I was interpreting it wrong… and then said I could say the same thing about you.

 

[annad347]

Would the Holy Spirit guide a person away from Christ’s Body?

The Holy Spirit will always lead you to God.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

The Holy Spirit will always lead you to God.

But apart from the Body of Christ, who is God?

 

[annad347]

But apart from the Body of Christ, who is God?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says

270 - God is the Father Almighty, whose fatherhood and power shed light on one another: God reveals his fatherly omnipotence by the way he takes care of our needs; by the filial adoption that he gives us (“I will be a father to you, and you shall be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty”): finally by his infinite mercy, for he displays his power at its height by freely forgiving sins.

ref: 2 Cor 6:18 cf. Mt 6:32

 

[Julius_Caesar]

God is the Father Almighty, whose fatherhood and power shed light on one another: God reveals his fatherly omnipotence by the way he takes care of our needs; by the filial adoption that he gives us (“I will be a father to you, and you shall be my s

Are you saying that Jesus isn’t God?

 

[annad347]

Are you saying that Jesus isn’t God?

When did I say that? I also never said the Holy Spirit isn’t God either.

What are you trying to say, Mr Caesar?

 

[mary77]

it is for me an explanation of what the bible is telling us such as specifically explaining each of the ten commandments in such a way that we can realize all possible sins we could ever commit fall under one of those ten commandments.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

What are you trying to say, Mr Caesar?

I could ask the same question.