Quick question about "The End"

[catholic1seeks]

The following from www.ewtn.com
Endtimes, Millennium, Rapture

As Cardinal Ratzinger recently pointed out (in the context of the message of Fátima), we are not at the end of the world. In fact, the Second Coming (understood as the physical return of Christ) cannot occur until the full number of the Gentiles are converted, followed by “all Israel.”

QUESTION: ** **
IF THIS IS TRUE, than why do so many Christians believe that the end is near?

Also to note from the same source (Endtimes, Millennium, Rapture):

The Catechism provides us with a general order of events at the End [CCC 673-677]. Chronologically they are,

1. the full number of the Gentiles come into the Church
2. the “full inclusion of the Jews in the Messiah’s salvation, in the wake of the full number of the Gentiles” (#2 will follow quickly on, in the wake of, #1)
3. a final trial of the Church “in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth.” The supreme deception is that of the Antichrist.
4. Christ’s victory over this final unleashing of evil through a cosmic upheaval of this passing world and the Last Judgment.

**So why do so many Christians (especially non-Catholics) claim that the end is near? **

 

[catholic1seeks]

Any ideas?

 

[mdcpensive1]

The following from www.ewtn.com

Endtimes, Millennium, Rapture

As Cardinal Ratzinger recently pointed out (in the context of the message of Fátima), we are not at the end of the world. In fact, the Second Coming (understood as the physical return of Christ) cannot occur until the full number of the Gentiles are converted, followed by “all Israel.”

QUESTION: ** **
IF THIS IS TRUE, than why do so many Christians believe that the end is near?

Also to note from the same source (Endtimes, Millennium, Rapture):

The Catechism provides us with a general order of events at the End [CCC 673-677]. Chronologically they are,

1. the full number of the Gentiles come into the Church
2. the “full inclusion of the Jews in the Messiah’s salvation, in the wake of the full number of the Gentiles” (#2 will follow quickly on, in the wake of, #1)
3. a final trial of the Church “in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth.” The supreme deception is that of the Antichrist.
4. Christ’s victory over this final unleashing of evil through a cosmic upheaval of this passing world and the Last Judgment.

**So why do so many Christians (especially non-Catholics) claim that the end is near? **

I guess they do because 1) there are many christian churches in most of the cities of Israel 2) satan seems to be unleashing a tempting sinfull presence in pronography, relativism, ignorance of the church, sin, etc. 3) since the death of Christ, we are in the end times and no guarantee when the end comes. 4) the church is being persecuted by seculars, overzealous evangelicals or fundamentalists, and islamists. Look at the middle east and see where the church once was. Illam is a threat to all christians.

mdcpensive1

 

[SimonArizona]

Jesus said Israel will have its own nation again and this generation will not pass until Christ comes.

 

[cranster]

I don’t think it’s near the end but I do think we may be very near a great chastisement. Read Mark Mallet’s blog. I do think we are at a time in History unlike any we have seen before, and to say this is a wicked age is an understatement with abortion, pornography always a mouseclick away, atheism… the list goes on. My personal belief is that God needs to do this out of love to turn our hearts back to Him.

I’m sure I’m not telling you anything that you haven’t heard before, but whether the end of the world or our personal end it’s always a heartbeat away at anygiven moment. keep the lamp lit, the Master is near.

 

[tm30]

**So why do so many Christians (especially non-Catholics) claim that the end is near? **

Human desire for control over things they can’t control.

Every generation thinks the end is near. Why? Because, relatively speaking, it’s the same refrain: “Can it ever get worse than this?”

Most people think that once we cross some scientific line or kill just enough unborn babies, God will enact His justice. That’s just too simplistic an approach, and it forms the foundation of most “seers” who think they can divine God’s next move by reading the newspaper.

Objectively speaking, if we’re talking about the weight of world events, then nothing in history compares to the outright carnage and inhumanity of World War II. You think things are bad now? Tell that to the Russian proletariat systematically starved by Stalin. Tell that to the six million Jews, and countless millions of other who died at the hands of the Germans and Russians, who were incinerated in fire bombings and atomic blasts in Japan.
And the rise of communism and the cruelty of Nazism and Norse pagan ideology. And the evil and genocide that atheistic communism would unleash on the world for the next several decades. If we were to simply measure moral attitudes to estimate when Jesus will return, then He’s late by about 70 years.

Point being, it’s a futile exercise, because there isn’t a human measurement that points to an answer. The “fullness” of the Gentiles will be reached whenever God has (already) decided that there are no more souls He wishes to create and have evangelized. This approach frustrates many because it’s human nature to want to have control - to be forewarned so that we may prepare. But Christ made it very clear that He will return “like a thief in the night”. Yet, there are all kinds of theories circulating which have turned eschatology into some sort of parlor game.

The whole point of faith is to “believe” without “seeing”. It’s not for us to know, but prepare as if this day is your last, in any circumstance.

 

[tm30]

I don’t think it’s near the end but I do think we may be very near a great chastisement. Read Mark Mallet’s blog. I do think we are at a time in History unlike any we have seen before, and to say this is a wicked age is an understatement with abortion, pornography always a mouseclick away, atheism… the list goes on. My personal belief is that God needs to do this out of love to turn our hearts back to Him.

I’m sure I’m not telling you anything that you haven’t heard before, but whether the end of the world or our personal end it’s always a heartbeat away at anygiven moment. keep the lamp lit, the Master is near.

We are being chastised. Every day we grow more diminished as members of humanity while greed and lust and murder and atheism and all the great sins of the world increase in numbers and intensity. Our chastisement comprises whatever ramifications come about from our turning from God.

People think our economic problems are compartmentalized to Wall Street. They’re not. They began with contraception, and the re-ordering of priorities from justice to comfort at any cost. Social attitudes became so turned inward, it became a matter of widespread acceptance to simply get ahead by any means necessary. That relates directly to falling birth rates, soaring numbers of abortions, corruption, cheating and plagiarism at every level of education, tax and accounting fraud writ large, unpayable credit card bills, people lying to get home loans they can never repay, rampant divorce, normalization of sodomy and polygamy, euthanasia of the elderly, euthanasia of the handicapped, the inability to get health care insurance, a bankrupt social security system, banks that gambled away all our money, and CEO’s who live richly and tell the rest of the world to “eat cake”.

Is this enough of a chastisement yet? Because it seeems like the punishment is already upon us.

We are living in Sheol.

 

[fbl9]

We are living in Sheol.

no we are not,look for the beauty of all things and you will find it is still there…you seem to be living without hope,for anyone…

 

[CentralFLJames]

QUESTION:
IF THIS IS TRUE, than why do so many Christians believe that the end is near?

Because some enterprising members of the non-Catholic secularized Christian sects have discovered that they can make a very good living selling yet another genre of fictitious “do-it-yourself-salvation” self help books to the masses of their hysterical and gullible congregation members. This is mostly a recent Protestant phenomena of the genre called dispensationalism originally popularized by a fringe break-away Protestant sect leader named John Nelson Darby and rediscovered by the American secular religious cults.

Now, due to perceptions that the west is collapsing in socio-economic and religious-moral standing people are panicking and looking for a way to personally cope with the anxiety of seeing their way of life being eroded. So all are doing what these sects have always done - grasp at any instant fix that shows potential to find another just in time “easy-believism” . They have found comfort in the fantasy of dispensationalism and think they are saved from personal suffering and discomfort by a thing called “the rapture”. It is spreading like a contagion of irrationality to infect everyone - even some Catholics that are clueless what their church really teaches.

Everyone wants to think they are special and exempt from suffering the trials and tribulations of what they imagine is “the beast” and his workings. These people are buying every new amatuer book dejure of private exegesis from popular pop-secular protestant authors in desperate attempts to assure themselves that they will escape all the maladies they imagine are long overdue. What is most illogical is everyone imagines they are special and somehow different from the early saints and martyrs that were called to suffer for Christ and they forget that they were baptised into Christ’s suffering as a pre-condition to eternal salvation. That baptism makes them a target of Satan and rather than put on the armor of God and embrace whatever trial God gives them - they want to have their cake and eat it to.

The rapture stuff is all nonsense of course and easily debunked by scripture and Church Teaching. While I do agree that a minor Chastisement (which is not really so minor) could happen at any time the actual final falling away and tribulation are not likely to happen for a long time yet - at least a few centuries. In any regard - there is no such concept as a pre tribulation rapture. There is however a scriptural sequence that must be followed and the chastisement must happen first. No fictional books are going to change that. Any true believer in God’s word does not need to buy the fictitious teachings of secular men. No apostle EVER taught pre-tribulation rapture.

James

 

[fbl9]

QUESTION:
IF THIS IS TRUE, than why do so many Christians believe that the end is near?

Because some enterprising members of the non-Catholic secularized Christian sects have discovered that they can make a very good living selling yet another genre of fictitious “do-it-yourself-salvation” self help books to the masses of their hysterical and gullible congregation members. This is mostly a recent Protestant phenomena of the genre called dispensationalism originally popularized by a fringe break-away Protestant sect leader named John Nelson Darby and rediscovered by the American secular religious cults.

Now, due to perceptions that the west is collapsing in socio-economic and religious-moral standing people are panicking and looking for a way to personally cope with the anxiety of seeing their way of life being eroded. So all are doing what these sects have always done - grasp at any instant fix that shows potential to find another just in time “easy-believism” . They have found comfort in the fantasy of dispensationalism and think they are saved from personal suffering and discomfort by a thing called “the rapture”. It is spreading like a contagion of irrationality to infect everyone - even some Catholics that are clueless what their church really teaches.

Everyone wants to think they are special and exempt from suffering the trials and tribulations of what they imagine is “the beast” and his workings. These people are buying every new amatuer book dejure of private exegesis from popular pop-secular protestant authors in desperate attempts to assure themselves that they will escape all the maladies they imagine are long overdue. What is most illogical is everyone imagines they are special and somehow different from the early saints and martyrs that were called to suffer for Christ and they forget that they were baptised into Christ’s suffering as a pre-condition to eternal salvation. That baptism makes them a target of Satan and rather than put on the armor of God and embrace whatever trial God gives them - they want to have their cake and eat it to.

The rapture stuff is all nonsense of course and easily debunked by scripture and Church Teaching. While I do agree that a minor Chastisement (which is not really so minor) could happen at any time the actual final falling away and tribulation are not likely to happen for a long time yet - at least a few centuries. In any regard - there is no such concept as a pre tribulation rapture. There is however a scriptural sequence that must be followed and the chastisement must happen first. No fictional books are going to change that. Any true believer in God’s word does not need to buy the fictitious teachings of secular men. No apostle EVER taught pre-tribulation rapture.

James

thanks you put that way more charitable then i couls have…to me the belief in pre-tribulation rapture is arrogant…God allowed His only Son to suffer horribly,what right do i have to expect to be spared from any anguish…

 

[spauline]

Any ideas?

mainly because we live in a significant secular apostasy. They are just unaware of the prophecies of the mystics you cited that foretell a minor apostasy and trib followed by an age of peace before the FINAL apostasy and trib of the end.

In fact, Catholic teaching tends to reject the mystics scenario you cited, even though they approve the messages as POSSIBLE.

Personally, I think Augustine led the Church away from deeper theology on eschatology.

OK, so the Millenium is the vague period of the NT Church. OK, but has the devil really been “practically” chained? BS!!! Major BS!!! Especially.

Therefore, the Millennium makes much more sense as the age of peace that is coming, rather than the whole age of the Church, which has been anything but spiritual peace.

 

[Lev23]

The following from www.ewtn.com
Endtimes, Millennium, Rapture

As Cardinal Ratzinger recently pointed out (in the context of the message of Fátima), we are not at the end of the world. In fact, the Second Coming (understood as the physical return of Christ) cannot occur until the full number of the Gentiles are converted, followed by “all Israel.”

QUESTION: ** **
IF THIS IS TRUE, than why do so many Christians believe that the end is near?

Also to note from the same source (Endtimes, Millennium, Rapture):

The Catechism provides us with a general order of events at the End [CCC 673-677]. Chronologically they are,

1. the full number of the Gentiles come into the Church
2. the “full inclusion of the Jews in the Messiah’s salvation, in the wake of the full number of the Gentiles” (#2 will follow quickly on, in the wake of, #1)
3. a final trial of the Church “in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth.” The supreme deception is that of the Antichrist.
4. Christ’s victory over this final unleashing of evil through a cosmic upheaval of this passing world and the Last Judgment.

**So why do so many Christians (especially non-Catholics) claim that the end is near? **

Because for one, Israel is being restored to the land. It will be fulfilled when Jesus comes back. I see nothing of this in the 4 chronological events you posted.

Yet scripture is full of this prophecy.

 

[Lev23]

QUESTION:
IF THIS IS TRUE, than why do so many Christians believe that the end is near?

Because some enterprising members of the non-Catholic secularized Christian sects have discovered that they can make a very good living selling yet another genre of fictitious “do-it-yourself-salvation” self help books to the masses of their hysterical and gullible congregation members. This is mostly a recent Protestant phenomena of the genre called dispensationalism originally popularized by a fringe break-away Protestant sect leader named John Nelson Darby and rediscovered by the American secular religious cults.

Now, due to perceptions that the west is collapsing in socio-economic and religious-moral standing people are panicking and looking for a way to personally cope with the anxiety of seeing their way of life being eroded. So all are doing what these sects have always done - grasp at any instant fix that shows potential to find another just in time “easy-believism” . They have found comfort in the fantasy of dispensationalism and think they are saved from personal suffering and discomfort by a thing called “the rapture”. It is spreading like a contagion of irrationality to infect everyone - even some Catholics that are clueless what their church really teaches.

Everyone wants to think they are special and exempt from suffering the trials and tribulations of what they imagine is “the beast” and his workings. These people are buying every new amatuer book dejure of private exegesis from popular pop-secular protestant authors in desperate attempts to assure themselves that they will escape all the maladies they imagine are long overdue. What is most illogical is everyone imagines they are special and somehow different from the early saints and martyrs that were called to suffer for Christ and they forget that they were baptised into Christ’s suffering as a pre-condition to eternal salvation. That baptism makes them a target of Satan and rather than put on the armor of God and embrace whatever trial God gives them - they want to have their cake and eat it to.

The rapture stuff is all nonsense of course and easily debunked by scripture and Church Teaching. While I do agree that a minor Chastisement (which is not really so minor) could happen at any time the actual final falling away and tribulation are not likely to happen for a long time yet - at least a few centuries. In any regard - there is no such concept as a pre tribulation rapture. There is however a scriptural sequence that must be followed and the chastisement must happen first. No fictional books are going to change that. Any true believer in God’s word does not need to buy the fictitious teachings of secular men. No apostle EVER taught pre-tribulation rapture.

James

No Apostle ever taught pre-tribulation rapture, at least how you perceive and explain it anyways.

You take some that use bumper stickers and easy escapism ideas and smear the whole bunch.

That would be like me smearing all Catholics that believe in Church-approved apparitions because of a few Catholics that go to different places every week to follow and get a new message from “Our Lady”(which happens here in the midwest). But I won’t do that.

As far as escapism, no suffering and belief in the pre-trib rapture, you lose here. The Churches in Israel for the most part have had to to stay underground for many years. But this is getting better every day, for there are a few “Israeli Jews for Jesus” not only boldly sending the Gospel of Christ to their brethern, but also encouraging the Churches to come out and do the same. One of the prime places they get the pre-trib rapture from is the 5th feast of Trumpets, from the seven feasts God gave to Israel. The see these feasts as a foreshadowing of Jesus and are prophetic. They understand that Jesus fulfilled the first 4 feasts, and that he will take his church on the feast of Trumpets before the 6th feast of the Day of Atonement fulfilled when Jesus comes back to Israel and they look upon him and believe in him who they pierced.

Daily, the Jewish Churches in Israel are met with persecution, public humiliation, threats to their life, damage to their property, all for the love of Jesus and belief that Jesus will gather his bride to himself before God pours his wrath out on the world. Jewish Christians are labled “traitors” among their brethern in the flesh, and often have no other choice but to leave populated areas to Worship as a Church. They believe in Jesus a Messiah, and because of this they are mostly looked down upon by their brethern, are hated by many nations because along with unbelieving Israel, they are considered occupiers of Palestinean land, are snickered at by other churches and even called “judaizers”. All this suffering before the tribulation, for the love of the Lord.

Is this enough “suffering” for you?

 

[CentralFLJames]

No Apostle ever taught pre-tribulation rapture, at least how you perceive and explain it anyways.

You take some that use bumper stickers and easy escapism ideas and smear the whole bunch.
…

Is this enough “suffering” for you?

If you are done with your rant can you please simply state your belief? Are you saying that you believe in a pre-trib rapture? If you do which secular rapture book do you hold as inspired teaching?

Sorry I call a heretical teaching what it is - wrong. There is no such concept as truth by majority and least common denominator ecumenical majority assent. There is only one full truth and the Catholic Church has it and teaches it.

From your rant it sounds to me like you are into some new hybrid Jews-for-Jesus sort of variant sect and are fusing some Jewish traditions with Protestant ideas and synthesizing new ideas on the fly. Who is your church leader and by what authority do you preach a new gospel that no apostle ever taught?

Also, why suffer the body of Christ by spreading yet another new secular religious theory? Don’t you think there are enough cults as it is? If you are going to be persecuted at least suffer for the truth not for some secular theory.

James

 

[Nickkname]

The following from www.ewtn.com
Endtimes, Millennium, Rapture

As Cardinal Ratzinger recently pointed out (in the context of the message of Fátima), we are not at the end of the world. In fact, the Second Coming (understood as the physical return of Christ) cannot occur until the full number of the Gentiles are converted, followed by “all Israel.”

QUESTION: ** **
IF THIS IS TRUE, than why do so many Christians believe that the end is near?

Also to note from the same source (Endtimes, Millennium, Rapture):

The Catechism provides us with a general order of events at the End [CCC 673-677]. Chronologically they are,

1. the full number of the Gentiles come into the Church
2. the “full inclusion of the Jews in the Messiah’s salvation, in the wake of the full number of the Gentiles” (#2 will follow quickly on, in the wake of, #1)
3. a final trial of the Church “in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth.” The supreme deception is that of the Antichrist.
4. Christ’s victory over this final unleashing of evil through a cosmic upheaval of this passing world and the Last Judgment.

**So why do so many Christians (especially non-Catholics) claim that the end is near? **

Argument from generalization dosen’t work, sorry. Saying all or most Christians believe the end is near is a generalization.

The Church believes no one knows when the end will come, so the Church dosen’t say the end is near or far: rather, with the Lord, she points to the signs of the end and says “Be watchful!”

 

[Lev23]

If you are done with your rant…

Only if you are done your rant/inquisition.

…can you please simply state your belief? Are you saying that you believe in a pre-trib rapture?

Yes,…sure,…I do.

If you do which secular rapture book do you hold as inspired teaching?

Since when is scripture a secular rapture book? And where are you getting the rapture is a secular teaching?

Sorry I call a heretical teaching what it is - wrong. There is no such concept as truth by majority and least common denominator ecumenical majority assent. There is only one full truth and the Catholic Church has it and teaches it.

From your rant it sounds to me like you are into some new hybrid Jews-for-Jesus sort of variant sect and are fusing some Jewish traditions with Protestant ideas and synthesizing new ideas on the fly. Who is your church leader and by what authority do you preach a new gospel that no apostle ever taught?

Also, why suffer the body of Christ by spreading yet another new secular religious theory? Don’t you think there are enough cults as it is? If you are going to be persecuted at least suffer for the truth not for some secular theory.

James

If Christian Jews preaching to other Jews in the land of Israel to “repent, the Kingdom of Heaven is near” is some new hybrid Jews for Jesus variant sect theory etc., well that is your problem.

Nothing I said came from secular synthesized theories.

The 7 feasts God gave to Israel can be found in the Torah and throughout all scripture, including the NT. St.Paul called Jesus the “firstfruits”(1Cor15:20) when talking about him rising from the dead. Indeed Christ did rise on the feast of firstfruits.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Yes,…sure,…I do.

OK - now I see why you took exception to being lumped with the other pre-tribbers since you obviously think your version of pre-trib is the right one.

Since when is scripture a secular rapture book? And where are you getting the rapture is a secular teaching?

That was my point. There is no scriptural support for a pre-trib rapture so the idea has to be extra-biblical. That’s why I asked what version or flavor of millenarism you subscribe to by book title.

BTW a pre-trib rapture would require Jesus to return 3 or more times. The math can be done on on hand.

If Christian Jews preaching to other Jews in the land of Israel to “repent, the Kingdom of Heaven is near” is some new hybrid Jews for Jesus variant sect theory etc., well that is your problem.

Nothing I said came from secular synthesized theories.

It had to be a secular teaching since no apostle ever taught it and the apostolic Church, the Catholic Church never taught it. It was a new teaching of man that spun out of the protestant reformation by an obscure Protestant sect. See my original post for sources. Note he is not an apostolic priest - ergo he is a secular teacher.

The 7 feasts God gave to Israel can be found in the Torah and throughout all scripture, including the NT. St.Paul called Jesus the “firstfruits”(1Cor15:20) when talking about him rising from the dead. Indeed Christ did rise on the feast of firstfruits.

Jesus rose after passover just like in the times of OT where God delivered the Jews from the Egyptians with the blood of the lamb. The pascal blood was sprinkled on the door still of the cross so to speak. Don’t you see the clear imagery?

All of the OT Jewish traditions and feast days were prefiguring events for NT - including a holy priesthood according to the order of Melchizedek (superior to the Levitical/Aaronic order). Only the Catholic Church (and Orthodox) have this priesthood - anything not of this priesthood is a fraud and a self appointed authority. That is why I asked you by what authority you are trying to convert Jews to a secular Christianity that only has a small fractional truth.

James

 

[steve_b]

**QUESTION: **
why do so many Christians believe that the end is near?

Every second on this planet people die. For THEM, the end happened.

 

[Lev23]

OK - now I see why you took exception to being lumped with the other pre-tribbers since you obviously think your version of pre-trib is the right one.

It had nothing to do with what “version” but by you lumping all pre-trib rapture believers with the ones who you “rant” about with bumber stickers and such.

That was my point. There is no scriptural support for a pre-trib rapture so the idea has to be extra-biblical. That’s why I asked what version or flavor of millenarism you subscribe to by book title.

BTW a pre-trib rapture would require Jesus to return 3 or more times. The math can be done on on hand.

Yes there is scriptural support for it.

Rapture means “caught up”. He does not come back to Israel at that moment. He came once to Israel by birth, ascended to the Father, and will come back to Israel again in all his glory. That adds up to 2 comings of Jesus. The math can be done on hand. Keep blushing.

It had to be a secular teaching since no apostle ever taught it and the apostolic Church, the Catholic Church never taught it. It was a new teaching of man that spun out of the protestant reformation by an obscure Protestant sect. See my original post for sources. Note he is not an apostolic priest - ergo he is a secular teacher.

Jesus rose after passover just like in the times of OT where God delivered the Jews from the Egyptians with the blood of the lamb. The pascal blood was sprinkled on the door still of the cross so to speak. Don’t you see the clear imagery?

All of the OT Jewish traditions and feast days were prefiguring events for NT - including a holy priesthood according to the order of Melchizedek (superior to the Levitical/Aaronic order). Only the Catholic Church (and Orthodox) have this priesthood - anything not of this priesthood is a fraud and a self appointed authority. That is why I asked you by what authority you are trying to convert Jews to a secular Christianity that only has a small fractional truth.

James

Secular secular secular.

Tell me, does the Catechism of the Catholic Church call protestants “secular”?