Quick Question

[catharina]

I feel taking this tact, would be for us, the readers, to jump to conclusions. There is a good chance that the OP is worried about the perception of her Church refuting her wishes to return to the sacrament, rather than her belief that she is living in sin. Like I said originally, there may be extenuating circumstances for her current living arrangements. It is not so simple to suggest that she starts living on her own. What if she cannot afford it? What if her family live in another state? What if she can’t find somewhere else to rent? The list goes on. I think it is better to encourage her return to regular Mass rather than fuel her guilt. She will no doubt confer with her priest about this.

Most posters have answered her from a Catholic perspective since she stated this:

“So my fiance and I live together, we have our own apt and been living together for 2 yrs, but right now hes in the Military hes in Germany, I wanted to ask, can i take the communion? I know that while living together its living under sin, but he is not here, does that still count?”

She identifies herself as a Catholic.
There are no other answers to offer from that perspective.
Clearly, going to confession, talking to a priest, are her only options acc to the Church.

 

[PrayerShark]

I’ve never used the name Cat. It seems to be a misnomer to me.

As for your religious faith, your answer is that you’re Protestant?
That explains why you wish to advise from a point of view that is not Catholic.
The original poster is Catholic, asking for Catholic perspective.

I am confident in the teachings of the Catholic Church. It’s that simple for me.
Your thoughts are not atypical for a Protestant, IMO, but not relavant to the OP.

I never said I was Protestant, all I made clear to you was the reason for my title as Anglo-Catholic. If anything I am halfway in between, which is generally the opinion of most modern day Anglicans. I grew up under both Catholic and Anglican teachings, so I can see both points of view. Regardless, the fact that I would need to be blatantly Catholic for you to consider discussing points at the same level as me, is I feel, a very sad thing. Fortunately, the OP has the freedom to read and consider my points at her leisure.

 

[catharina]

I never said I was Protestant, all I told you the reason for my title as Anglo-Catholic. If anything I am halfway in between, which is generally the opinion of most modern day Anglicans. I grew up under both Catholic and Anglican teachings, so I can see both points of view. Regardless, the fact that I would need to be blatantly Catholic for you to consider discussing points at the same level as me, is I feel, a very sad thing. Fortunately, the OP has the freedom to read and consider my points at her leisure.

Nevertheless, the OP is Catholic and asked for answers that address her faith.
That is what I and most other posters have done - supporting Church Teaching.
That you wish to disagree with Church Teaching is another matter entirely.

 

[PrayerShark]

Incorrect, my advice was certainly in line with rest of the posters. Although I certainly gave my opinion on the matter of Catholic Church’s view on cohabitation as a sin. My advice to her was to pursue the normal course of receiving communion, which requires contrition for ones sins, and ergo requires the attendance of Mass. All roads lead to Rome.

 

[catharina]

Incorrect, my advice was certainly in line with rest of the posters. Although I certainly gave my opinion on the matter of Catholic Church’s view on cohabitation as a sin. My advice to her was to pursue the normal course of receiving communion, which requires contrition for ones sins, and ergo requires the attendance of Mass. All roads lead to Rome.

Actually, in her circumstances what is required is confession and even she knows that.
So people who say that, as Catholics, are all saying the same thing. You disagree.

You’re free to disagree - but you can’t pretend you’re offering a Catholic perspective.
You’ve clearly stated you’re at odds with the teachings of the Church re this.

While all roads lead to Rome, many folks actually LIVE in Rome.

 

[spirit4life]

Reason i dont go to mass every week is because i work and have school im trying to get my masters done and i know thats not a excuse, but then i live with him i know thats bad i know thats a sin i know that im not confused about that, i know people that sin and are worst than me and they go and take communion, so what does that make me a bad really bad person because i made the choice of living together with my fiance, we have every intention of getting married. and i dont think i have to go to mass every week, i know people that go to mass every week and as soon as they get out of mass there on to their bad ways.

Any and all of your sins can be forgiven by Jesus, so don’t let that stop you from going to confession or mass. This is perhaps more important than anything else. Communion after a proper confession (and before COMMITTING any further mortal sin) should be permissible; abstaining because you MIGHT mortal sin in the future is verging on scrupulosity - talk to priest about this.
You should avoid fornication if you are not married, co-habitating or not (live like brother and sister if you cannot change arrangements till you are married) - this may suffice to remove the mortal component of co-habituation during the times that he is present- if he is not present, there is no fornication. Missing mass MUST be confessed before receiving communion.

 

[PatriceA]

Incorrect, my advice was certainly in line with rest of the posters. Although I certainly gave my opinion on the matter of Catholic Church’s view on cohabitation as a sin. My advice to her was to pursue the normal course of receiving communion, which requires contrition for ones sins, and ergo requires the attendance of Mass. All roads lead to Rome.

You are incorrect. Your advice is actually the only one that is contrary to almost if not ALL of the posters. The OP has admitted she has had pre-marital relationships and plans to in the future and has skipped mass which as a Catholic, is a grave sin. She needs to go to confession before she can receive communion again. There is no wiggle room or justifying the situation.

 

[catharina]

You are incorrect. Your advice is actually the only one that is contrary to almost if not ALL of the posters. The OP has admitted she has had pre-marital relationships and plans to in the future and has skipped mass which as a Catholic, is a grave sin. She needs to go to confession before she can receive communion again. There is no wiggle room or justifying the situation.

Precisely - and thank you.

There is no room for “extenuating circumstances” for any Catholic.

 

[micahmike]

from your posts, it’s difficult to see that you’re working on your masters degree. are you, perhaps, a long way away from completion?

What a helpful, charitable post.

 

[Rach620]

Reason i dont go to mass every week is because i work and have school im trying to get my masters done and i know thats not a excuse, but then i live with him i know thats bad i know thats a sin i know that im not confused about that, i know people that sin and are worst than me and they go and take communion, so what does that make me a bad really bad person because i made the choice of living together with my fiance, we have every intention of getting married. and i dont think i have to go to mass every week, i know people that go to mass every week and as soon as they get out of mass there on to their bad ways.

Gris, I’ve struggled with this line of thinking before, the thinking that “my sins aren’t that bad; other people are worse.” It’s taken a long time, but I’ve come to realize that this is just prideful thinking and is blinding me to my own sinfulness and failings in many areas. I’m no murderer, but my sins can be as serious for me as violence is for the murderer, as they distance me from God and are just as much a cause of pain for our Savior as other abuses. Jesus taught us just as much–looking with lust upon another is the same as committing adultery; violence and anger are equivalent to murder. This is why the examination of conscience I linked earlier went through the Ten Commandments and connected them with sins which seem minor in comparison.

So please, as I said earlier, talk to your priest and seek confession. Don’t compare yourselves to others, and seek to form your conscience according to the teachings and laws of the Church (one of which is attending Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation, as well as going to Confession once a year). The Catechism is a great resource.

God loves you and wants to draw you closer to Him. It is the Holy Spirit that is causing these things to weigh on your conscience and to ask that you change your life so that your relationship with God can grow thorough the grace available to you in the Church and the sacraments.

I disagree with the church making a sin out of cohabitation. It’s presumptuous for people to believe that living with a person of the opposite gender outside of marriage definitively equals that they are having pre-marital sex. There can be numerous extenuating circumstances that give these two adults good reason to live together before marriage. If people wish to make a scandal out of it with gossip, then it is THEY who are committing the sin. I see no reason at all why you can’t follow the normal means to receiving the communion.

PrayerShark, I am not 100% positive that cohabitation alone is considered gravely sinful. It is clear, however, that putting oneself in a near occasion of sin (as cohabitation does easily tempt people in love to sin against chastity) is sinful, as is sex outside of marriage, and as is causing scandal to others by proclaiming to be a follower of Christ while living a secular lifestyle in which others presume you are having sex outside of marriage. Of course there can be extenuating circumstances that could cause one’s degree of guilt for this sin to be lessened; however, steps should be taken to avoid the situation altogether, as it can cause scandal and lead to other very grave sins.

My good friend Joe. Your statement confuses me. The degree of her sins does not preclude her from pursuing the normal means of receiving communion. I don’t see her having to perform any extraordinary penance for not attending Mass in 2 years. Her wanting to receive communion is acknowledging her sins. I don’t understand where you take conflict with this.

This is plainly NOT Catholic teaching. A truly contrite Catholic aware of mortal sin will seek out Confession prior to receiving the Eucharist, so as not to “eat and drink judgment upon themselves”. This obviously differs from Protestant teaching re: Holy Communion (and yes, as an “Anglo-Catholic,” you are still Protestant, unless you belong to an Anglican-use Catholic parish…in which case you need to track down a Catechism and learn what the Catholic Church teaches.)

 

[monicatholic]

What a helpful, charitable post.

i honestly didn’t mean anything sarcastic or uncharitable about it. i read this:

Reason i dont go to mass every week is because i work and have school im trying to get my masters done and i know thats not a excuse, but then i live with him i know thats bad i know thats a sin i know that im not confused about that,** i know people that sin and are worst than me and they go and take communion, so what does that make me a bad really bad person because i made the choice of living together with my fiance**, we have every intention of getting married. and i dont think i have to go to mass every week, **i know people that go to mass every week and as soon as they get out of mass there on to their bad ways. **

and thought the diction and expression had deteriorated since the first (much shorter) post and i wondered if the OP wasn’t a very young college student with aspirations toward masters degree.

that would help explain the poor written expression but it would, more importantly, explain the under-developed reasoning expressed in the red lettered text.

if the OP is hardly more than a teenager, the tone of my response would be, to a certain degree, moderated for her age.

that’s what i meant by asking.

 

[PatriceA]

i honestly didn’t mean anything sarcastic or uncharitable about it. i read this:

and thought the diction and expression had deteriorated since the first (much shorter) post and i wondered if the OP wasn’t a very young college student with aspirations toward masters degree.

that would help explain the poor written expression but it would, more importantly, explain the under-developed reasoning expressed in the red lettered text.

if the OP is hardly more than a teenager, the tone of my response would be, to a certain degree, moderated for her age.

that’s what i meant by asking.

Sometimes if you’re texting from a phone, the type or sentence structure will appear like that paragraph from the OP.

But I didn’t take your questioning where the OP is in pursuing her masters degree as uncharitable, I took it as you were just trying to understand the OP better so you could respond in kind.

 

[LynnNH]

I was thinking that perhaps English is not this poster’s first language.

 

[joandarc2008]

OK there are many things going on here so I am going to attempt to answer all of them because I am extremely motivated and off of work for a month due to a car accident caused by a seizure.

1- First - I did live with my prior to marriage. It is not the best way to go. There are two reasons for this. One is the near occasion of sin; the other is the possibility of causing scandal. If you have to live together due to financial and economic reasons which it sounds like you are trying to do the right thing it is best if few people know in order to avoid scandal and you should live as brother and sister. That means no touchy, feely.My dh and I did this prior to the wedding for a while after we realized we were wrong and it was rough but it was well worth on the wedding night.

Let me take this two fold

Causing scandal is bad:

II. RESPECT FOR THE DIGNITY OF PERSONS

Respect for the souls of others: scandal

2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

2285 Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."86 Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing.87

2286 Scandal can be provoked by laws or institutions, by fashion or opinion.

Therefore, they are guilty of scandal who establish laws or social structures leading to the decline of morals and the corruption of religious practice, or to "social conditions that, intentionally or not, make Christian conduct and obedience to the Commandments difficult and practically impossible."88 This is also true of business leaders who make rules encouraging fraud, teachers who provoke their children to anger,89 or manipulators of public opinion who turn it away from moral values.

2287 Anyone who uses the power at his disposal in such a way that it leads others to do wrong becomes guilty of scandal and responsible for the evil that he has directly or indirectly encouraged. "Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come!"90

Pemarital Sex is wrong-- in other words it is basically adultery:

2363 The spouses’ union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life. These two meanings or values of marriage cannot be separated without altering the couple’s spiritual life and compromising the goods of marriage and the future of the family.

The conjugal love of man and woman thus stands under the twofold obligation of fidelity and fecundity.

Conjugal fidelity

2364 The married couple forms "the intimate partnership of life and love established by the Creator and governed by his laws; it is rooted in the conjugal covenant, that is, in their irrevocable personal consent."146 Both give themselves definitively and totally to one another. They are no longer two; from now on they form one flesh. The covenant they freely contracted imposes on the spouses the obligation to preserve it as unique and indissoluble.147 "What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder."148

2365 Fidelity expresses constancy in keeping one’s given word. God is faithful. The Sacrament of Matrimony enables man and woman to enter into Christ’s fidelity for his Church. Through conjugal chastity, they bear witness to this mystery before the world.

St. John Chrysostom suggests that young husbands should say to their wives: I have taken you in my arms, and I love you, and I prefer you to my life itself. For the present life is nothing, and my most ardent dream is to spend it with you in such a way that we may be assured of not being separated in the life reserved for us. . . . I place your love above all things, and nothing would be more bitter or painful to me than to be of a different mind than you.149

 

[joandarc2008]

(cont)
Alright now - another topic - no sin is worse than another. God wants us in communion with Him and the Saints. We are in communion with Him and the Saints when we are able to take Eucharist. We are able to do this when we are free of Mortal Sin. There is no list of Mortal Sin. Mortal Sin is about our own culpability. Basically there are certain conditions that need to be meant for us to be in Mortal Sin. If we are in Mortal Sin then we need to go to Confession. This can be for anything from lying to parents to missing mass to premarital sex. If these conditions were not meant - and remember we cannot lie to God - then we are in venial sin and the Sacrament of Eucharist or the Sacrament of the Sick can take of these.

These are the differences:

IV. THE GRAVITY OF SIN: MORTAL AND VENIAL SIN

1854 Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture,129 became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.

1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.

Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.

1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God’s mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:

When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery. . . . But when the sinner’s will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.130
1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul’s progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God’s grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness."134

While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. But do not despise these sins which we call “light”: if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all, confession.135
1864 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.

 

[joandarc2008]

(Last One)
Now to address the poster that talked about the Anglo Catholic Church. The Anglican Church while using many of the Rituals is a Protestant Church. As a matter of fact it was one of the first Protestant Churches from the Reformation. They believe in things socially that Catholic Church is dead set against such as homosexuality. They ordained a homosexual bishop. They also do not hold Apostolic Succession. These are MAJOR issues. We DO NOT consider the Anglican Church in communion with us. Although some parishes have left the Anglican Church and come in to the Catholic Church. You may want to look at your religious education and ask yourself - what are you baptized in? What are you confirmed in? What do you believe? What Church matches those beliefs? What do you need to do to get there? I am saying this out of Charity as we will all be countd in the end.

 

[jmcrae]

I disagree with the church making a sin out of cohabitation. [/qutoe]

The Church does not “make” sins - she only describes reality as it is. Adults playing house together and playing at being married, without first making that permanent commitment to one another, is not an honest way to live. Honesty is the first step to holiness.

It’s presumptuous for people to believe that living with a person of the opposite gender outside of marriage definitively equals that they are having pre-marital sex.

 

[PrayerShark]

I will do my best to deal with the last page or so of refutations to my voicing of opinion.

First of all, I believe a lot of you are rushing to condemn my advice based on this perceived notion that I am Protestant. I advise those of you who wish to keep referring to me as Protestant to go back and read what I originally said. Second, I have not in any way suggested that she can receive communion without confession first. When I say following the normal procedure to receiving communion, the construction of the statement itself is intended to portray all steps leading up to the Eucharist. I should have not have to list every single step necessary to receive the sacrament for some of you to understand this. I believe the OP has the intellectual capacity to work this out on her own.

As for the cohabitation debate, thank you joandarc2008 and spirit4life for acknowledging my point and for at least meeting me halfway on it. I agree that living together before marriage may offer to strong a temptation for some couples, but for others they may have the willpower to remain chaste. That is why I wished to give the OP the benefit of the doubt on her situation.

 

[catharina]

jmcrae, as always, you go straight to heart of the matter.

***“The Church does not “make” sins - she only describes reality as it is. Adults playing house together and playing at being married, without first making that permanent commitment to one another, is not an honest way to live. Honesty is the first step to holiness. … the fact that most people assume they do (engage in sexual contact) is reason enough not to live together, so as not to place others people into the near occasion of sin (gossip, I mean).” ***

Thanks for adding your wise words to this thread.

 

[Gris84]

Okay first of all the person that said that I go to mass,and take communion everytime I go to mass, you are very wrong, I never said that I go to mass and take communion. Last time I took communion was 2 years ago.

Everybody else thanks. I see some people get so offended.