Quick! (Take 2)

[Offdoodykcrn]

I had submitted a thread and it was either pulled or got lost. I have asked why & haven’t received a response from a moderator, so I’m hoping this was just a misunderstanding. I didn’t copy and save the response I received in the thread, perhaps they will re-post as well.
What I’ve Learned At CAF: other religions area
First, let me state that I appreciate (almost) everyone here at CAF. I have enjoyed the discussions, lightly peppered with witty repartee. Since my husband died in 2011, I’ve been isolated from an important part of society that, in the past had been filled by my coworkers. I haven’t been back to work because I don’t have to work (if I live frugally), and I haven’t wanted to go back because I wasn’t ready. I’m an oncology nurse. I met my husband in 1997, I was new to my profession and working on an orthopedic unit at a local hospital, and he was a CPA working as a federal employee at the Dept of Agriculture. He was a remarkable human being - in so many ways, one of them was the fact that he had been a paraplegic since he had been 21 yrs old. One of my fellow nurses met Doug when he came to have lunch with me. When I returned from my break she said she thought Doug was really nice and that I must be very brave - she couldn’t imagine dating someone in a wheelchair. Throughout our relationship, other people had made similar comments. One time, while vacationing in Las Vegas, we were visiting The Star Trek Experience and Doug and I had our picture taken with a very large female ‘Klingon’. Doug rolled away to view more of the exhibit and she leaned down to tell me that my mate must surely be fortunate to have such a brave warrior such as myself. I grinned at her and said, “If you knew me better, you would know he is the brave one, and I was the lucky one.”

Doug was raised Catholic, and I was almost Catholic (which I have gone into on other posts - you can hunt them down if you like). He wanted our respective previous marriages annulled so our marriage could be blessed by the church. I told him I would proceed with mine as soon as his was submitted. Unfortunately, Doug’s health started to deteriorate. He was hospitalized many times for various illnesses over the 10 years of our marriage. After 2005, it became necessary for me to leave my job at the time because I was working 50-60 hrs/wk. I found work that I could do at home over the telephone, and that worked for a while, until we decided it was best I quit to take care of him full-time.

As an oncology nurse, I thought I knew everything there was to know about death and dying. Doug had always hated talking about death - when the topic came up, he would change the subject to ‘something less morbid’. The last few months of his life, however - he talked about it quite a bit. He had me take notes about what he wanted to leave his brothers, what he wanted his funeral to include - down to the music and the list of his friends he wanted me to make sure knew when and where the service was going to be. I asked him if he felt like he was going to die soon. He said he wasn’t sure, but it would be OK if he did.

Towards the end, he got sick, and he ended up having to be admitted for pneumonia. Doug passed away exactly the way he wanted: surrounded by his family, in no pain. I’ve been present for many deaths (as a nurse), but Doug’s passing was the most peaceful I’ve ever witnessed. Unfortunately, my own response to his death was decidedly not peaceful. I’m still struggling at times, and I miss him so much, but I’m comforted by the fact that the love we shared is still very much alive.

So, back to the original point of my post: I missed engaging in the debate of philosophy and faith (which my husband and I shared), the nature of life and current events (which I often also shared with my friends and coworkers). You might recall I had said I was an ‘almost Catholic’. Doug’s faith brought him comfort, and almost every interaction with priests were positive. Really, only one was negative. Doug had been in the hospital once (several years before he died) and a priest from a different church came to visit, offer confession and communion. I left the room so they could talk in private, and when I returned, Doug was visibly upset. The priest was adamant about not giving communion because Doug and I were ‘living in sin’, and obviously Doug wasn’t repenting enough because we continued to act like we were married when the church had not annulled his previous marriage - even though we had both been legally divorced before being legally married to each other. I was so mad that I called and spoke with the hospitals Pastoral Services and then the church where the priest worked. I’m still mad, quite frankly - and I’m not sure why.

Since becoming an adult, I’ve made a distinction between having faith in God and organized religion. I see God as love, and I see religion as a tool used by people in power to control or influence their followers. Perhaps I sought out this forum in hopes of reconciling that conflict in myself. Although I’ve had several positive interaction here, I feel the urge to continue my debates in a different forum. I’m tired of people using their selections of scripture and history to ‘prove’ they are right and anyone else is likely to burn for eternity.

I’m going to check out skepticforum.com and see what they have to say. I may very well be back here from time to time, and I wish you all well.

Peace be with you.

 

[Robertanthony]

Wonderful story. Peace be with you, too.

 

[fbl9]

. Since my husband died in 2011, I’ve been isolated from an important part of society that, in the past had been filled by my coworkers. I haven’t been back to work because I don’t have to work (if I live frugally), and I haven’t wanted to go back because I wasn’t ready. I’m an oncology nurse. I met my husband in 1997, I was new to my profession and working on an orthopedic unit at a local hospital, and he was a CPA working as a federal employee at the Dept of Agriculture. He was a remarkable human being - in so many ways, one of them was the fact that he had been a paraplegic since he had been 21 yrs old. One of my fellow nurses met Doug when he came to have lunch with me. When I returned from my break she said she thought Doug was really nice and that I must be very brave - she couldn’t imagine dating someone in a wheelchair. Throughout our relationship, other people had made similar comments. One time, while vacationing in Las Vegas, we were visiting The Star Trek Experience and Doug and I had our picture taken with a very large female ‘Klingon’. Doug rolled away to view more of the exhibit and she leaned down to tell me that my mate must surely be fortunate to have such a brave warrior such as myself. I grinned at her and said, “If you knew me better, you would know he is the brave one, and I was the lucky one.”

Doug was raised Catholic, and I was almost Catholic (which I have gone into on other posts - you can hunt them down if you like). He wanted our respective previous marriages annulled so our marriage could be blessed by the church. I told him I would proceed with mine as soon as his was submitted. Unfortunately, Doug’s health started to deteriorate. He was hospitalized many times for various illnesses over the 10 years of our marriage. After 2005, it became necessary for me to leave my job at the time because I was working 50-60 hrs/wk. I found work that I could do at home over the telephone, and that worked for a while, until we decided it was best I quit to take care of him full-time.

As an oncology nurse, I thought I knew everything there was to know about death and dying. Doug had always hated talking about death - when the topic came up, he would change the subject to ‘something less morbid’. The last few months of his life, however - he talked about it quite a bit. He had me take notes about what he wanted to leave his brothers, what he wanted his funeral to include - down to the music and the list of his friends he wanted me to make sure knew when and where the service was going to be. I asked him if he felt like he was going to die soon. He said he wasn’t sure, but it would be OK if he did.

Towards the end, he got sick, and he ended up having to be admitted for pneumonia. Doug passed away exactly the way he wanted: surrounded by his family, in no pain. I’ve been present for many deaths (as a nurse), but Doug’s passing was the most peaceful I’ve ever witnessed. Unfortunately, my own response to his death was decidedly not peaceful. I’m still struggling at times, and I miss him so much, but I’m comforted by the fact that the love we shared is still very much alive.

So, back to the original point of my post: I missed engaging in the debate of philosophy and faith (which my husband and I shared), the nature of life and current events (which I often also shared with my friends and coworkers). You might recall I had said I was an ‘almost Catholic’. Doug’s faith brought him comfort, and almost every interaction with priests were positive. Really, only one was negative. Doug had been in the hospital once (several years before he died) and a priest from a different church came to visit, offer confession and communion. I left the room so they could talk in private, and when I returned, Doug was visibly upset. The priest was adamant about not giving communion because Doug and I were ‘living in sin’, and obviously Doug wasn’t repenting enough because we continued to act like we were married when the church had not annulled his previous marriage - even though we had both been legally divorced before being legally married to each other. I was so mad that I called and spoke with the hospitals Pastoral Services and then the church where the priest worked. I’m still mad, quite frankly - and I’m not sure why.

Since becoming an adult, I’ve made a distinction between having faith in God and organized religion. I see God as love, and I see religion as a tool used by people in power to control or influence their followers. Perhaps I sought out this forum in hopes of reconciling that conflict in myself. Although I’ve had several positive interaction here, I feel the urge to continue my debates in a different forum. I’m tired of people using their selections of scripture and history to ‘prove’ they are right and anyone else is likely to burn for eternity.

I’m going to check out skepticforum.com and see what they have to say. I may very well be back here from time to time, and I wish you all well.

Peace be with you.Your husband sounded like a wonderful man.
The priest may have been correct in his view as per Church teaching.
Most likely you have been told the how the Church teaches it’s view from Christ’s own words.Basically by using the martial “right” the mortal sin of adultry was being committed as per Church teaching. You know what you know in this regards i need not know.

How do you feel that the Church is lording over you? Do you feel that the people who teach this doctrine are rubbing their hands smiling to themselves “got another one” hehe.

by the way christianity is a relgion.You do have your own personal beleifs that if one does not hold they can’t of the same religion as you.

 

[RoseMary131]

. He was a remarkable human being - in so many ways, … I grinned at her and said, "If you knew me better, you would know he is the brave one, and I was the lucky one."

I asked him if he felt like he was going to die soon. He said he wasn’t sure, but it would be OK if he did.

Towards the end, he got sick, and he ended up having to be admitted for pneumonia. Doug passed away exactly the way he wanted: surrounded by his family, in no pain. I’ve been present for many deaths (as a nurse), but Doug’s passing was the most peaceful I’ve ever witnessed. Unfortunately, my own response to his death was decidedly not peaceful. I’m still struggling at times, and I miss him so much, but I’m comforted by the fact that the love we shared is still very much alive.

Doug had been in the hospital once (several years before he died) and a priest from a different church came to visit, offer confession and communion. I left the room so they could talk in private, and when I returned, Doug was visibly upset. The priest was adamant about not giving communion because Doug and I were ‘living in sin’, and obviously Doug wasn’t repenting enough because we continued to act like we were married when the church had not annulled his previous marriage - even though we had both been legally divorced before being legally married to each other. I was so mad that I called and spoke with the hospitals Pastoral Services and then the church where the priest worked. I’m still mad, quite frankly - and I’m not sure why.

Since becoming an adult, I’ve made a distinction between having faith in God and organized religion. I see God as love, and I see religion as a tool used by people in power to control or influence their followers. Perhaps I sought out this forum in hopes of reconciling that conflict in myself.
Peace be with you.

Thank you for sharing the beauty of love between you and your husband, Doug. I’m sorry that he has died. May you have comfort knowing that Doug loved God and loved you.

I’m sorry that you experienced such a sadness about your husband not being able to receive Our Lord in Holy Communion. You are right, God is love.

I’m sorry you see religion as a tool used by people in power to control others. God gave us the gift of the Church through His Son Jesus. Jesus gave us a way of passing down His Church from generation to generation, not to control us but to draw us closer to Him and protect us.

Sometimes we don’t always understand “why” the Church teaches as She does. So we search out the reason.

The Church recognizes all marriages as binding, as valid until death - unless proven otherwise. So, the Church sees that your husband was bound to his “first wife” until and unless he showed otherwise and you to your “first” husband.

An annulment means that the marriage tribunal looks at the thoughts, etc. of the husband and wife at the time they married. If they can show reason that God would not have united them in marriage, then the tribunal declares the marriage was never valid, that God never joined them in marriage.

The Church does not see a legal divorce as “un-binding” what God has joined as one in marriage. So, married couples who divorce and re-marry without an annulment are actually still married to their first spouse. God will not bind the person to a “second spouse” while still bound by Him to their first spouse - meaning once God binds spouses in Holy Matrimony - they are married until death.

In such cases, one is actually in a state of sin when having sexual relationships with a “second” spouse, since they are actually still married in the eyes of the Church to the “first spouse.”

Even though it made your husband very sad not to receive Our Lord in Holy Communion, the priest was protecting your husband from the sin of receiving the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord while having the sin of “adultery” on his soul.

I’m sorry if that sounds harsh. I know you loved your husband very much and he loved you as well. It hurt both of you that he could not receive Our Lord in Holy Communion. Part of the hurt may have been because of how much you love each other and the beauty in your marriage. The truth that the Church sees that your marriage was not valid because you had not first both received an annulment from your previous marriages - remains a fact.

Maybe you are still mad because you love your dear husband so much. You saw that he wanted once again to receive Our Lord in Holy Communion, and yet he could not.

The Church has set rules for all of Her Sacraments. Holy Communion and Matrimony are two Sacraments. It must have hurt seeing the pain of your husband.

The facts and teachings are not used as power or control over us, but to help us be in a state of grace before God. Sometimes its hard to understand. Prayer and study can often bring peace and understanding.

May you find peace in understanding Church teaches are for our good, even when we don’t understand.

Peace.

 

[Samson01]

Please read St. Faustina’s diary. It may help you. God bless the work you’ve done as an oncology nurse. I’m a stage III Tc survivor and my nurse saved me many a night. You all are angels.

 

[aemcpa]

You know exactly what skepticforum.com is going to say, and you know exactly what Catholic Answers is going to say. Either marriage is indissoluble or it isn’t. If it is, then it is the sacred and inviolable responsibility of the Church to ensure that her children do not attempt to divide (or treat as divided) what God has joined. A civil court has no power to dissolve the bond of sacramental matrimony, so divorce is entirely irrelevant to the Church. You and your husband both entered into the bond of marriage, and they appeared to the outside world to be marriages that fulfilled the Church’s requirements for a marriage that binds for life. In order for you to be free to marry according to the Church, the Church must investigate the situation and gather enough evidence to be able to declare that the requirements for marriage were not met. That is what the annulment process is, and without it, the Church can only go by what she sees, and that is two people who appear to be married to other people and yet living in a relationship that attempts to be marriage. I beg of you, do not hold this against the Church - she is the only institution in the world that is still 100% committed to protecting marriage. Pray for peace in your heart, and pray for your departed, beloved Doug that he may rest in peace and that eternal light may shine upon him.

 

[Offdoodykcrn]

The facts and teachings are not used as power or control over us, but to help us be in a state of grace before God. Sometimes its hard to understand. Prayer and study can often bring peace and understanding.

May you find peace in understanding Church teaches are for our good, even when we don’t understand.

Peace.

Thank you for your kind words. Thankfully, after he was discharged from that hospitalization, he sought council from a priest of his own parish. He went to confession, received communion and the sacrament of the sick several times before he passed. Each of those sacraments brought him peace, and I am thankful for the kindness and compassion the church showed to both of us.

My statement about organized religion was not pointed at Catholicism, per se. I believe most organized religion provides society with stability, it unites communities, provides a basis for morality and answers the universal question, “Why?”

The problem I see with almost every organized religion is not an issue of God, but of people in positions of power. For example: all 3 of the major religions; Christian, Jewish and Muslim - all acknowledge that killing is a sin, and yet all 3 - at one time or another, have killed and waged war against each other in the name of their religion. Does God want us to kill each other for not believing in God the same way? I can not believe that to be true. God is love, and it is incorruptible. People, unfortunately - are often easily corruptible. When I have studied various theologies, I look at how they define God and see how their definitions compare with the nature of Love. For example, I question those Muslim factions that rally it’s members to hate those that do not worship their way. In those communities, I might be physically harmed just for raising the question - if I was allowed to voice the question in the first place.

I do not believe God is divisive or destructive. I do not believe God turns away from me when I have questions. I have never doubted Gods love for me or anyone else, for that matter. It is my prayer that we all are lead to him - through whatever path we chose.

May God bless you & keep you.

 

[Offdoodykcrn]

How do you feel that the Church is lording over you? Do you feel that the people who teach this doctrine are rubbing their hands smiling to themselves “got another one” hehe.

by the way christianity is a relgion.You do have your own personal beleifs that if one does not hold they can’t of the same religion as you.

Thank you for your response and kindness. I don’t feel as if the church is lording over me. I’m not Catholic. (Sorry - a little background to explain…) My dad was a minister (Disciples Of Christ) and a history buff. My mother divorced him when I was 7 and returned to the catholic faith she grew up with. When my sister and I were with our mom, we attended mass. When we were with our father, we attended his church. Our mom enrolled us in Catholic school, which I’m grateful for because I had a great education. Around the 7th grade I attended catechism classes. After the first class, the nun that taught that day asked me to save my (many) questions to go over in private after class. I wasn’t trying to be difficult - I just had trouble with a few issues: the infallibility of the pope conflicting with the history of various people who held the post - usually around the crusades, the absolution of sin by a priest, praying to saints and kneeling before statues. The day I was to confirm, I told my mom that I couldn’t go through with it, because I didn’t want to lie in church. It’s possible my parents divorce and the switching back and forth between churches played a part in my decision not to confirm - perhaps I felt I was being disloyal to my father. At the time, I felt it was worse to lie in church about God than disappoint my mother and grandparents. I’m truly grateful they respected my decision. My sister had no problem confirming, although she no longer attends Catholic Church. Both of our parents raised us stressing the importance of critical thinking skills - and I think at some point they both felt like that ended up backfiring on them. Imagine having 2 headstrong teenagers picking apart an argument yelling, “oh yeah? Cite your source!”

The end result (for myself) is that I have a very strong faith in God, but not so much in people. I want to know motives and reasoning before committing to a group, be it religion, volunteer program or job. I respect everybody’s right to seek God in their own way and I’m still trying to figure out where I belong. In the mean time, I read the bible and study different belief systems - this forum being part of that study.

 

[Offdoodykcrn]

You know exactly what skepticforum.com is going to say, and you know exactly what Catholic Answers is going to say. Either marriage is indissoluble or it isn’t. If it is, then it is the sacred and inviolable responsibility of the Church to ensure that her children do not attempt to divide (or treat as divided) what God has joined. A civil court has no power to dissolve the bond of sacramental matrimony, so divorce is entirely irrelevant to the Church. You and your husband both entered into the bond of marriage, and they appeared to the outside world to be marriages that fulfilled the Church’s requirements for a marriage that binds for life. In order for you to be free to marry according to the Church, the Church must investigate the situation and gather enough evidence to be able to declare that the requirements for marriage were not met. That is what the annulment process is, and without it, the Church can only go by what she sees, and that is two people who appear to be married to other people and yet living in a relationship that attempts to be marriage. I beg of you, do not hold this against the Church - she is the only institution in the world that is still 100% committed to protecting marriage.

With all due respect, it is this type of dogma I have trouble getting past. Who decides if our first marriages were worthy of annulment - God, or people in positions of power within the church? Some in the church might not have approved of our marriage regardless of previous marriages because Doug was disabled - unable to have children. There are some in the church that say the only reason for marriage is to raise a family in the church, and if its not possible, there should be no union. I happen to disagree. I respect those that believe the only real marriage is one sanction by the Catholic Church, but I’m thankful that is not law in the country where I reside.

I take exception with your opening statement. There are all kinds of skeptics, there is lots of debate about theology and philosophy - some people are open-minded and respectful, some are not - the same as here. I can tell you that asserting vehemently at what The Church supports and condemns does not feel welcoming.

 

[Allamanda]

asserting vehemently at what The Church supports and condemns does not feel welcoming.

Nevertheless, the Church is very clear about what is likely to lead people to God and salvation and what isn’t. Priests have a responsibility to teach and uphold what the Church teaches will lead to salvation. The Church doesn’t decide these teachings. She merely transmits what She has received. This is not to say that the Church is not welcoming of everyone. The Church wants the best for you, even though sometimes this may seem harsh.

I hope that you will be able to see that the priests recommend what they do out of love and concern for your welfare.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Some in the church might not have approved of our marriage regardless of previous marriages because Doug was disabled - unable to have children. There are some in the church that say the only reason for marriage is to raise a family in the church, and if its not possible, there should be no union. I happen to disagree.

The Church disagrees, too. She does not prevent childless couples from marrying. Afa I’ve heard she teaches there is a unitive aspect of marriage beyond having children.

If so, then since “some people” who disapprove on those bases are the ones not in conformance with the Church, they throw stones from inside their glass houses.

Alan

 

[maltmom]

The Church disagrees, too. She does not prevent childless couples from marrying. Afa I’ve heard she teaches there is a unitive aspect of marriage beyond having children.

If so, then since “some people” who disapprove on those bases are the ones not in conformance with the Church, they throw stones from inside their glass houses.

Alan

Alan’s right. To marry one must be open to the possibility of life. I am unable to have children, but I am able to marry. The only impediment is impotency.

 

[fbl9]

Thank you for your response and kindness. I don’t feel as if the church is lording over me. I’m not Catholic. (Sorry - a little background to explain…) My dad was a minister (Disciples Of Christ) and a history buff. My mother divorced him when I was 7 and returned to the catholic faith she grew up with. When my sister and I were with our mom, we attended mass. When we were with our father, we attended his church. Our mom enrolled us in Catholic school, which I’m grateful for because I had a great education. Around the 7th grade I attended catechism classes. After the first class, the nun that taught that day asked me to save my (many) questions to go over in private after class. I wasn’t trying to be difficult - I just had trouble with a few issues: the infallibility of the pope conflicting with the history of various people who held the post - usually around the crusades, the absolution of sin by a priest, praying to saints and kneeling before statues. The day I was to confirm, I told my mom that I couldn’t go through with it, because I didn’t want to lie in church. It’s possible my parents divorce and the switching back and forth between churches played a part in my decision not to confirm - perhaps I felt I was being disloyal to my father. At the time, I felt it was worse to lie in church about God than disappoint my mother and grandparents. I’m truly grateful they respected my decision. My sister had no problem confirming, although she no longer attends Catholic Church. Both of our parents raised us stressing the importance of critical thinking skills - and I think at some point they both felt like that ended up backfiring on them. Imagine having 2 headstrong teenagers picking apart an argument yelling, “oh yeah? Cite your source!”

The end result (for myself) is that I have a very strong faith in God, but not so much in people. I want to know motives and reasoning before committing to a group, be it religion, volunteer program or job. I respect everybody’s right to seek God in their own way and I’m still trying to figure out where I belong. In the mean time, I read the bible and study different belief systems - this forum being part of that study.

Thanks that explains a lot.
That you did not continue with confirmation shows great integerity on your part.
I am not much of a history buff, to my understanding one could compare the first cursades to the world wars, in that it was defensive war.
We do read in the OT that God commanded some of the killing done by the Jews.
To my limited knowledge war is taught as a means of conversion in Muslem faith.

 

[RoseMary131]

Thank you for your kind words. Thankfully, after he was discharged from that hospitalization, he sought council from a priest of his own parish. He went to confession, received communion and the sacrament of the sick several times before he passed. Each of those sacraments brought him peace, and I am thankful for the kindness and compassion the church showed to both of us.

I do not believe God is divisive or destructive. I do not believe God turns away from me when I have questions. I have never doubted Gods love for me or anyone else, for that matter. It is my prayer that we all are lead to him - through whatever path we chose.

May God bless you & keep you.

Thank you for the blessing.

I am so happy to hear Doug was able to receive the gifts, the graces of the Sacraments. What a wonderful blessing for his body and soul to receive the gift of absolution and graces in the Sacrament of Confession, the gifts and graces of Our Lord and Savior - Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in Holy Communion, and the gifts and graces of healing for both his body and soul in the Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick.

I hope that this will not offend you, but I do have a thought about the sacraments, the Catholic Church and your wonderful and loving husband, Doug. I want to ask you a question, at the same time, I’m a bit concerned that it will grieve you, and that is not what I want to do.

Doug obviously was a very loving husband. In regards to his faith and the Catholic Church, it seems he had a strong desire for the peace, the gifts, the graces he knew were found in the Sacraments. He was hurt when he could not receive Holy Communion in the hospital. He felt drawn to receive the Sacraments and sought those through his parish priest. The graces Doug received from each of the Sacraments brought him peace. You were able to witness his peace.

Do you think Doug may want you to experience this same peace? Today Doug sees the graces of the Sacraments in a more profound way, seeing them from Eternal Life. Could your desire to search be a gift from Doug, an answer to his prayers before God for you?

The Catholic Church teaches “a communion of saints” - that those who have passed to Eternal Life are still very much united with those of us still in our Earthly Life - we are One Church - made of both those on Earth and those in Eternal Life. As such, while on earth we can pray for one another and once we enter Eternal Life, we continue to love and pray for those still on earth.

Could Doug be praying that you find the peace he knew you were looking for with God and find it in a profound way through the Sacraments and through God’s Holy Church?

I do not believe God is divisive or destructive. I do not believe God turns away from me when I have questions. I have never doubted Gods love for me or anyone else, for that matter. It is my prayer that we all are lead to him - through whatever path we chose.

God is all love and you are right He never turns away from you or His many children, even when we have questions. You have a beautiful prayer that we are all lead to Him. Some paths are easier than others. I feel God gave us His Holy Church as the straightest path to Him. Sometimes we run into bumps that we can’t understand. It isn’t really a bump in the path to God, but a bump in our own understanding. With prayer and faith, God can and does help us see over our own bumps.

My statement about organized religion was not pointed at Catholicism, per se. I believe most organized religion provides society with stability, it unites communities, provides a basis for morality and answers the universal question, “Why?”

The problem I see with almost every organized religion is not an issue of God, but of people in positions of power. For example: all 3 of the major religions; Christian, Jewish and Muslim - all acknowledge that killing is a sin, and yet all 3 - at one time or another, have killed and waged war against each other in the name of their religion. Does God want us to kill each other for not believing in God the same way? I can not believe that to be true. God is love, and it is incorruptible. People, unfortunately - are often easily corruptible. When I have studied various theologies, I look at how they define God and see how their definitions compare with the nature of Love. For example, I question those Muslim factions that rally it’s members to hate those that do not worship their way. In those communities, I might be physically harmed just for raising the question - if I was allowed to voice the question in the first place.

The Church is made of people and people have flaws. As we sin, our flaws fester worse and worse. The more we turn to God, the more He can heal our flaws, our sinful nature, our focus that is not in union with Him.

The Church, like you, teaches that God does not want us to kill each other to make someone believe “our way”.

If we look at the flaws of people in the Church and not at the true teachings of the Church, we are viewing people - not the Church. (I am only addressing the Catholic Church and not Jews and Muslims - as I know very little of those faiths.)

On Life - God is Pro-Life - God does not want us to kill one another. We loves us all, Christians, Jews, Muslims, and every one. Only God is the author of Life. He gives us life in our mother’s wombs and He receives our Earthly lives at our death. He does not want us to take the lives of each other.

Look at the teachings of the Church, I see the Church teaches God is Pure Love. I see the Church teachings call us to strive for pure love. I see the Church teaches us to “Choose Life” as in Deuteronomy 30:19.

I am offering prayers for you.

 

[Offdoodykcrn]

Alan’s right. To marry one must be open to the possibility of life. I am unable to have children, but I am able to marry. The only impediment is impotency.

(It’s funny - I can here my husbands voice in my head, arguing about privacy issues and over sharing personal information… knowing how he felt and respecting his wishes, I will explain via hypothetical discussion

A paraplegic may or may not be able to produce children ‘in the usual manner’. It depends on the nature of the injury. Someone with a spinal cord injury identical to Doug’s would only be able to have children not in the usual manner. This wasn’t a big deal to me because I was told after my sons birth (from my first marriage) that future pregnancy would be medically dangerous and ill advised.

This is one of those situations where I see the difference between God and The Church. Doug and I engaged in debate of such matters often, respecting each others opinions, but not necessarily agreeing with each other. Human beings in a position of power in any religion are fallible. I believe that most religions make decisions about what is ‘right’ and what is ‘wrong’ after careful study and prayer. Doug argued that in the Catholic Church, the pope is infallible about things related to God - a position I respect, but disagree with. Any human being can be wrong, and I give special scrutiny to anyone that asserts they know the mind of God, and their decision about their religion is God’s decision and can not be disputed. I am a Christian, I believe that Jesus is the son of God - not just because I was taught by my parents, but because I have studied the New Testament and the teachings of Christ consistently ring true for me. Only one passage quoting Christ gave me trouble: Luke 14:26, where Jesus talks about hating ones parents in order to serve God. How could Love want me to hate - particularly my parents? That is a ‘top 10 sin’, so it gave me reason to hunt down an answer until I could reconcile it. If I had not been able to do so, I don’t think I could be as strong in my faith as I am today. I discovered that passage reads slightly different in the original Greek: it’s more about putting the love of God first. This is not a problem for me, because I believe God is Love, so how could I love my parents more than Love?

So, back to the distinction between God and The Church. The current position of The Catholic Church, unless it has changed without my knowledge, is that men who are impotent should not marry. I understand the reasoning behind this, but I disagree. I see marriage as more than just a sexual relationship. This is not to say that men with an injury like my husbands can’t be romantic. Far from it - it’s just not as conventional as others. Why would God not want for people with injuries like that to be wed? This is one of the few religious debates my husband didn’t declare himself ‘the winner’ - not to say that I won, but he reconciled the issue for himself that it was a mystery.

Sorry to have rambled on, but this is a complex theological debate. To say ‘The Church’ makes decisions about what is acceptable or not for its members based solely on God’s will does not ring true for me. Much like the passage in Luke, I think it’s possible for something to get lost in translation. Decisions made by any religion’s leaders - be they inspired by God or not, are relayed to the people through a human being. Human beings are fallible, therefor I question everything that comes from them. If they say it is God’s will, I test it - is what they are saying about the will of God consistent with the nature of Love? In this instance, I can’t see why Love would not want everyone to be allowed to experience the joys of marriage - regardless of physical disability.

Thank you for hearing my side of a complex issue. Peace be with you all.

 

[Samson01]

“Doug argued that in the Catholic Church, the pope is infallible about things related to God - a position I respect, but disagree with.”

Actually it is in faith and morals. God isn’t confined in this alone…

 

[Offdoodykcrn]

I am not much of a history buff, to my understanding one could compare the first cursades to the world wars, in that it was defensive war.
We do read in the OT that God commanded some of the killing done by the Jews.
To my limited knowledge war is taught as a means of conversion in Muslem faith.

Thank you for your kindness and response. I do not want to offend anyone, nor make them question their faith. It is historical fact, from a variety of sources that what was done during the crusades was not solely defensive.

Not all Muslims believe in war, many are deeply opposed to any type of violence, just as Jewish and Christians alike.

I am just as skeptical about historians as I am about religious leaders. Both topics require study and leave room for interpretation. I am unable to go back in time to witness history for myself, and I know that much of history is written by the victors. I give more credence to facts that are consistent with both sides of an argument or battle. Even then, it is still recorded by human beings - fallible and corruptible people with unique motives and viewpoints. It is my opinion that this is how conspiracy theorists get as much traction as they do. One need only look at the Kennedy assassination to see how varied viewpoints and motives can affect a persons interpretation of the truth.

Peace

 

[Offdoodykcrn]

I hope that this will not offend you, but I do have a thought about the sacraments, the Catholic Church and your wonderful and loving husband, Doug. I want to ask you a question, at the same time, I’m a bit concerned that it will grieve you, and that is not what I want to do.

I appreciate any discussion based in respect for all parties. Your words are most kind, and I welcome outside perspectives that challenge my precepts. It is in questioning, not only other people’s motives and viewpoints - but my own (first and foremost) that I feel closer to the truth.

Do you think Doug may want you to experience this same peace? Today Doug sees the graces of the Sacraments in a more profound way, seeing them from Eternal Life. Could your desire to search be a gift from Doug, an answer to his prayers before God for you?

Yes, I don’t think I would be here (in this forum) otherwise. My faith in God has been a constant in my life. Doug’s faith in Catholicism showed me that I was missing something - the support from a community of like-minded people. My quest now is to find my place in such a community. The current problem I’ve been having with Catholicism is complicated by some people (such as yourself) who are welcoming and understanding, in contrast with others that seem to be clubbing me over the head with dogma: “You gotta believe in what we say because The Church says so - otherwise you are a heathen and you are not welcome here - go away and burn by yourself.” This may be an over simplified confluence of the conversations I’ve had in various threads, tainted by my own perceptions, but that is how I feel when I read the responses like that of ‘aemcpa’. I know that a few passionate people should not be taken as the sole representation of an entire organized religion. If I believed that, my pursuit would be hopeless. I hope you see that my continued interaction on this forum is evidence of my hope that I might reach my goal.

Peace.

 

[Offdoodykcrn]

You know exactly what skepticforum.com is going to say, and you know exactly what Catholic Answers is going to say.

Dear Forum,

I have received several private messages about the word, ‘skeptic’, and I would like a moment to clarify something. Some seem to be under the impression that a skeptic is, by definition - an atheist. This is not true.

The definition of a skeptic is, “a person who questions the validity or authenticity of something purporting to be factual.”

It’s not reserved for religion - it is simply questioning facts provided by outside sources. I see this as healthy. If I were brought up in a religion that wanted me to kill everyone with red hair, and did it without question - I would be just as wrong as if I killed people with red hair because I enjoyed doing it. I could not follow any faith that told me to hate or kill, because I believe God to be Love, and killing and hatred are antithetical to love.

Peace be with you.

 

[RoseMary131]

My faith in God has been a constant in my life. Doug’s faith in Catholicism showed me that I was missing something - the support from a community of like-minded people. My quest now is to find my place in such a community. …others that seem to be clubbing me over the head with dogma: “You gotta believe in what we say because The Church says so - otherwise you are a heathen and you are not welcome here - go away and burn by yourself.” This may be an over simplified confluence of the conversations I’ve had in various threads, tainted by my own perceptions, but that is how I feel …
I hope you see that my continued interaction on this forum is evidence of my hope that I might reach my goal.

Peace.

I laughed at your "clubbing me over the head with dogma: You gotta believe in what we say because The Church says so - otherwise you are a heathen and you are not welcome here - go away and burn by yourself.’ " …because it is a problem we Catholics sometimes have and the visual of what we sound like “in the name of Love” is not so loving.

I hope, anyway, there was a bit of “artistic liberty” in your painting of how we sometimes “over extend” our ideas to others. I’m sorry we sometimes sound like that.

It is a very good point. Everyone has a different personality. We all express ourselves differently.

When you listen to us Catholics trying to explain our Catholic faith, try to look past the personal opinion and the personal expression and find the “facts of the Catholic teachings”. Once you have the “Catholic teaching”, not a misunderstanding of the teaching - then question why it is so and look for that explanation.

Sometimes what people (even good Catholic people) think the Church teaches is not the real teaching. (We have a problem in our Church, in that many of us are not catechized properly.)

Some people don’t have a need to know the “reason” the Church teaches as she does - but can hear “this is Church teachings” and because of the gift of faith simply accept it as truth.

Other people need to understand the reason behind the teaching. God may have given you a mind that longs to see how things work and follow the background behind the teachings. This gift allows you to be at peace when you understand more fully.

I doubt you will ever find a Catholic parish (or other group of people of faith) were everyone is on board the same page.

There are lots of good books that explain the reasons behind Church teaching.

Scott and Kimberly Hahn are good authors. You might find their books in the library or at the parish library of your husband’s parish. scotthahn.com/about-dr-hahn.html

I like this series of Catholic apologetic booklets from San Juan Catholic Seminars.
shop.catholicapologetics.com/category.sc;jsessionid=3C974AE1B8CF28CDD232809E272746AC.qscstrfrnt06?categoryId=2

I love the Surprised by Truth books. catholiccompany.com/surprised-by-truth-p1001109/ These books cover the conversion stories of different people.

When you hear someone explain their reason for believing as because “the Church says so”, realize the Church teaching is simply enough for them to accept the teaching. They have accepted the teachings of the Church as Truth. They may not need another way of understanding and may not realize that others need more than " because the Church says so".

Please keep searching for answers. God will lead you to His Truth. Don’t let us be a weed or a block in your search…when you see us “getting out the coals for the stake burning”… realize we lost the point in answering the question. Shake off our poor answers, and refocus on understanding why the Church teaches as She does.

We should answer your questions as: 1 Peter 3:15 - Venerate the Lord, that is, Christ in your hearts. Should anyone ask you the reason for this hope of yours, be ever ready to reply, but speak gently and respectfully.

You might enjoy attending Mass during Lent at the parish where Doug attended. The Masses of Holy Week and Easter Vigil, the night before Easter are beautiful. Palm Sunday (Passion Sunday) and Holy Thursday Mass, Good Friday Service (not a Mass - the only day of the year there is no Mass) and the Easter Vigil Mass on Saturday night before Easter may be wonderful for you. I invite you to attend.

You might enjoy attending Stations of the Cross one Friday evening during Lent. Its a wonderful reflection on walking with Jesus from meeting with Pontius Pilate to being laid in the tomb.

Peace.