Quietism vs. Heseychia

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Hi Ya’ll,

I was recently listening to a podcast from Father Thomas Hopko, and he recommended several books for his listeners to read. In it he mentioned his favorite western author was Archbishop Francois Fenilon from France. I’d never heard of this man before, so a quick wikipedia search turned up his association with the heresy of “Quietism”. I’ve read in much older entries about Heseychia and Gregory Palamas that the two are one and the same. Modern theologians now disagree with the association of the two. What is Quietism? Why is it heterodox? Was Archbishop Felion a quietist? Thanks!
 
LOL. READ!

In a sense, quietism is a perverted hesychasm. Where a hesychast would pray to be filled with Grace, a quietist believes that perfection can be obtained, in this life, by full suppression of our will. Some quietists believed that once ‘perfected’, no external worship, sacraments, nor prayer or fasting were required allowing for full indulgence for the ‘perfected’.
 
LOL. READ!
😃

Part of the last paragraph.
While these condemnations showed the determined attitude of the Church against Quietism both in its extreme and in its moderate form, Protestantism contained certain elements which the Quietist might have consistently adopted. The doctrine of justification by faith alone, i.e. without good works, accorded very well with Quietistic passivity. In the “visible Church” as proposed by the Reformers, the Quietist would have found a congenial refuge from the control of ecclesiastical authority. And the attempt to make the religous life an affair of the individual soul in its direct dealings with God was no less Protestant than it was Quietistic. In particular, the rejection, in part or in whole, of the sacramental system, would lead the devout Protestant to a Quietist attitude. As a matter of fact, traces of Quietism are found in early Methodism and Quakerism (the “inward light”).
🙂
 
The key difference between the heresy of quietism and the legitimate practice of hesychasm is that quietism involves a rejection of supplicatory prayer whereas hesychasm is an intense monastic system revolving around a very supplicatory prayer, the Jesus prayer.
 
The key difference between the heresy of quietism and the legitimate practice of hesychasm is that quietism involves a rejection of supplicatory prayer whereas hesychasm is an intense monastic system revolving around a very supplicatory prayer, the Jesus prayer.
And, more importantly, quietism forbids its practitioners from avoiding sin, on the grounds that once one has been perfected one must practice perfect passivity to God, even if that means sitting by while your body commits sin. See Monsignor Ronald Knox’s book Enthusiasm.

The New Advent article, like most of what you will find on New Advent, is unfortunately not reliable. Their tendency to regard the spiritual patrimony of the Eastern Church as heretical was a common error at the time that the Church has since soundly rejected. Hesychasm is proclaimed to us Catholics as dogma by the restoration of the feast of St. Gregory Palamas on the Second Sunday of Great Lent as the completion of the Triumph of Holy Orthodoxy.

I think the article’s equation of quietism with pantheism is almost certainly incorrect. Rather, the quietists exaggerated the doctrine “I live, now not I, but Christ liveth in me”. Modern scholarship has given a much more sophisticated treatment of views of the relationship between God and created reality, rather than pinning a whole smorgasbord of views with the vague label “pantheism”. Christian dogma teaches us that we are deified by grace, that is, to quote the holy Elder Aimilianos Simonopetritis, “you must become God”, and this is not pantheistic in any sense.

Likewise, Thomist metaphysics, upheld as the standard frame of reference for theology in the West, teaches that God is ipsum Esse - Being itself and absolute reality, while we are only real by participation (that is, God is our being though we are distinct from Him - to quote Meister Eckhart, “God exists us”, but as St. Thomas Aquinas pointed out, God is not the formal cause of our being, because we are distinct from Him). Hinduism has taken the conclusions of this truth to its logical consistency and declared that since God is Being therefore we are not absolute reality, that is we are illusion and God alone can be truly said to exist. I cannot honestly regard this as pantheism, because it emphasizes the transcendence of God (perhaps too much) rather than denying it. Gauging from the Catholic Encyclopedia article it seems the Quietists combined this stress on the transcendence of God with the dogma of divinization (a state it would seem they assume prematurely to have reached) to reach the conclusion that their existence is nothing other than God’s, they have been extinguished and exist only in God, and their actions are God’s. (This would be true if they were actually divinized - “Love God and do what you will”, to quote St. Augustine - but they err by supposing that the will is extinguished rather than divinized; that is, their view of divinization is not thorough.)

This is rather reminiscent of the Sufi spiritual doctrine, by which a saint’s existence is extinguished (fana) only to continue to subsist in God (baqa). A lot of ink is spilled over whether Sufism is an organic spiritual tradition that arose independently of any other one and happens to resemble other ones simply because truth is the same regardless of where it is discovered, or whether it was influenced by the Brahmanic Vedanta, Orthodox monasticism, or both. I am inclined to think all three - my point, however, is that this seems similar (and more thoroughly thought through) to the basic perception the Quietists were trying to grasp at, but more orthodox. (That Sufi mysticism is orthodox within the assumption of Christian revelation has been argued by a number of recent scholars, most notably the Melkite priest Fr. Louis Massignon in his four-volume monograph Al Hallaj: The Mystic and Martyr of Islam, as well as the Catholic philosopher Edward Ingram Watkin.)

It is also open to question whether Fenelon actually held Quietist or semi-Quietist views. The afore-mentioned Edward Ingram Watkin, who flourished around the time of Chesterton, argued in his Philosophy of Mysticism that Fenelon was defending the genuineness of Madame Guyon’s mystical experience, without actually agreeing with her errors (mystics after all have fallible intellects, and fallible interpretations of their experiences - and are often aware of this fact, as one can tell by reading the Divine Revelations of Blessed Juliana of Norwich).

All in all, I agree with Azurestone’s statement that Quietism is like perverted hesychasm, and I would add to that that it was a degraded version of the practice of the presence of God.
 
Regarding Father Hopko’s recommendation, I also love and value the writings of Fenelon, as well as those of his arch-adversary Bossuet. That two great spiritual writers or saints could be accusing each other of heresy during their lifetimes does not bother me - we have our own precedent for that with St. Joseph of Volokolamsk and St. Nil Sorsky, though I have to confess my sympathies for the latter. Both Fenelon and Bossuet wrote some of the finest Christian oratory, which is to say that their words were filled with the love of God and His Mother with which they fill their readers, and I recommend both of them.
 
Is the Catholic teaching against Quietism that we keep our will, it just becomes conformed to God’s will? there’s no total passivity, rather we act and think with love for God and in a way pleasing to Him, and He can work through us. Quietism apparently says that we lose the will altogether, and the capability to think. How does this relate to what St Teresa of Avila wrote about when she described her ecstasies and how the mind isn’t active sometimes, etc? though I’m NOT saying that is anything like Quietism. I’m just wondering where the difference lies, because I don’t know anything on the topic.

As for Hesychasm, it seems different from Quietism in its intent but also the method, and it doesn’t leave out growth in holiness, etc. Quietism seems focused one experience rather than holiness. In addition, in all forms of traditional Christianity: Catholic and Orthodox, there’s always an emphasis on willing God’s will, acts of faith, love, hope for God, praying, etc - but in Quietism it’s all passivity, like the article described they couldn’t even pray the Our Father - which contradicts Jesus’ words when He gave us this prayer! Maybe that is also the difference between Quietism and St Teresa, St John of the Cross, etc.

This description of Quietism is very troubling. Especially the part about Confession and loving God :eek:
No preparation is required before Communion nor thanksgiving after other than that the soul remain in its usual state of passive resignation; and the soul must not endeavour to arouse in itself feelings of devotion. Interior souls resign themselves, in silence, to God; and the more thorough their resignation the more do they realize that they are unable to recite even the “Pater Noster”. They should elicit no acts of love for the Blessed Virgin or the saints or the Humanity of Christ, because, as these are all sensible objects, love for them is also sensible. External works are not necessary to sanctification, and penitential works, i.e. voluntary mortification should be cast off as a grievous and useless burden (32-40). God permits the demon to use “violence” with certain perfect souls even to the point of making them perform carnal actions either alone or with other persons. When these onsets occur, one must make no effort but let the demon have his way. Scruples and doubts must be set aside. In particular, these things are not to be mentioned in confession, because by not confessing them the soul overcomes the demon, acquires a “treasure of peace”, and attains to closer union with God (41-52).
This part seems to be KIND OF similar to the Dark Night of the Soul which is a purification of the will in which the person feels rejected by God, but - the way to get there seems different from what Catholicism teaches.
The self-abandonment which Christ in the Gospel requires of us is simply the renunciation of our own interest, and the extreme trials that demand the exercise of this renunciation are temptations whereby God would purify our love, without holding out to us any hope even in regard to our eternal welfare. In such trials the soul, by a reflex conviction that does not reach its innermost depths, may have the invincible persuasion that it is justly reprobated by God. In this involuntary despair it accomplishes the absolute sacrifice of its own interest in regard to eternity and loses all interested hope; but in its higher and most inward acts it never loses perfect hope which is the disinterested desire of obtaining the Divine promises (7-12).
 
. I’m just wondering where the difference lies, because I don’t know anything on the topic.
IMO
In catholic and orthodox tradition the mystic is always “active” (even though he abandonned himself to God’s will) ie he is still prays, tries to keep away from sin, goes to mass etc
On the other in quietism it doesn’t matter anymore if you sin and if you don’t visit the sacraments.
 
Roman Catholic writers of yesteryear used to lambaste Hesychasm as “Quietism.”

After doing some study on the question, today’s RC theologians have changed their view.

One problem is that RC theologs tend to work very hard to understand Protestantism and even Eastern pagan religions, but skip this laborious process when it comes to Eastern Christianity - assuming a stance of “We know what that is all about.”

I found this in a book on the rosary I came across where the RC author did a marvelous job of outlining the prayer bead traditions of other monotheistic and even pagan religions, but just couldn’t be bothered to study the Eastern Christian tradition.

I called him up on the carpet for this and sent him sources that are readily available and which he clearly and deliberately didn’t use.

He apologised for this and said he would do an amended book at its second printing - although the second printing won’t happen.

Why is it that RC’s take such a careless attitude toward Eastern Christianity?

Alex
 
One problem is that RC theologs tend to work very hard to understand Protestantism and even Eastern pagan religions, but skip this laborious process when it comes to Eastern Christianity - assuming a stance of “We know what that is all about.”
What about Cardinal Tomáš Špidlík?

Now has there ever been an orthodox theologian who has shown remote interest (or simply respect) to catholicism ?
 
IMO
In catholic and orthodox tradition the mystic is always “active” (even though he abandonned himself to God’s will) ie he is still prays, tries to keep away from sin, goes to mass etc
On the other in quietism it doesn’t matter anymore if you sin and if you don’t visit the sacraments.
that makes sense… 🙂
 
What about Cardinal Tomáš Špidlík?

Now has there ever been an orthodox theologian who has shown remote interest (or simply respect) to catholicism ?
Cardinal Spidlik knew what he was talking about, as did a few other Jesuits, like Fr. Irenee Hausherr and Fr. Francis Dvornik.

Among Orthodox theologians interested in Catholicism in a positive way excluding those that ended up becoming Catholic themselves, Fr. John Meyendorff was exemplary.
 
What about Cardinal Tomáš Špidlík?

Now has there ever been an orthodox theologian who has shown remote interest (or simply respect) to catholicism ?
Well, I’m not saying there are no RC theologians who aren’t not only interested in Orthodoxy, but who know more about it and even value it more than many Orthodox and EC’s! There most certainly are!

As for Orthodox showing an interest in Latin Catholicism, I would only refer you to the many Orthodox saints and teachers of the Kyivan Baroque era such as: St Peter Mogila, St John Maximovych, St Dmitri of Rostov etc. etc. St Nicodemos the Hagiorite is an excellent Greek example as is St Nicholas Cabasilas and others.

All I’m saying is that I’ve been coming across RC writers who have been critical of Orthodoxy out of sheer, shall we say, unfamiliarity with it.

I know because I used to cop an anti-Orthodox attitude before I actually sat down and started to study a few things . . .

Alex
 
Roman Catholic writers of yesteryear used to lambaste Hesychasm as “Quietism.”

After doing some study on the question, today’s RC theologians have changed their view.

One problem is that RC theologs tend to work very hard to understand Protestantism and even Eastern pagan religions, but skip this laborious process when it comes to Eastern Christianity - assuming a stance of “We know what that is all about.”

I found this in a book on the rosary I came across where the RC author did a marvelous job of outlining the prayer bead traditions of other monotheistic and even pagan religions, but just couldn’t be bothered to study the Eastern Christian tradition.

I called him up on the carpet for this and sent him sources that are readily available and which he clearly and deliberately didn’t use.

He apologised for this and said he would do an amended book at its second printing - although the second printing won’t happen.

Why is it that RC’s take such a careless attitude toward Eastern Christianity? **But hey look at the bright side! The Orthodox are the only group of questions that ‘canon law’ ‘authorises’ to receive communion and confession from Catholic Priests providing several conditions are met. So I wouldnt exactly say ‘RC’s’ take a careless attitude, the ‘Orthodox church’ certainly seems to get preferential treatment. **

Alex
 
40.png
TrentCath:
The Russian Orthodox Church in particular gets preferential treatment by Rome, over and above the Ukrainian and Russian Greek-Catholic Churches - to be sure! 😉

I’m talking about Roman Catholic writers who seem to gloss over Eastern Christian issues and think they know all about them when in fact they base their conclusions on poor research and tendentious reasoning).

But the RC professors of Eastern theology and all things Eastern - that is a different kettle of fish altogether.

I guess the conclusion here is that when RC writers don’t do their research, they fall flat. But when they do, they are second to none.

And I remember when the great Orthodox theologian and writer, Fr. John Meyendorff (+memory eternal!) used to regularly submit his works (pre-publication) to a Jesuit
Byzantinist who often took him to task for “not being Eastern enough” in some instances . . . 🙂

Alex
 
The Russian Orthodox Church in particular gets preferential treatment by Rome, over and above the Ukrainian and Russian Greek-Catholic Churches - to be sure! 😉 Meh politics has never been my thing

I’m talking about Roman Catholic writers who seem to gloss over Eastern Christian issues and think they know all about them when in fact they base their conclusions on poor research and tendentious reasoning). **Tis a shame, I love finding out about the Eastern theology and so on **

But the RC professors of Eastern theology and all things Eastern - that is a different kettle of fish altogether.

I guess the conclusion here is that when RC writers don’t do their research, they fall flat. But when they do, they are second to none.

And I remember when the great Orthodox theologian and writer, Fr. John Meyendorff (+memory eternal!) used to regularly submit his works (pre-publication) to a Jesuit
Byzantinist who often took him to task for “not being Eastern enough” in some instances . . . 🙂 **ahah, good old Jesuits 😛 **

Alex
 
40.png
TrentCath:
Some Jesuits are absolutely wonderful . . . some truly are . . .🙂

I remember when Fr. Robert Taft SJ, brilliant Byzantine liturgist that he is, was awarded the right to wear a second, jewelled pectoral Cross for his work on Eastern liturgy. And the poor fellow, following all things eastern to the letter, consulted with others if that was OK. So he now does wear two Eastern priestly pectoral Crosses . . .

Alex
 
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