Quinceañeras

[Cavaille-Coll]

Please forgive my apparent cynicism, but I fail to understand the purpose of the quinceañera. Vast amounts of money are spent on the party, dresses, flowers, musicians (aarghh!), limousines, but in most cases, practically none of it goes to the church. It is claimed to be an ancient Aztec tradition, although it was originally for boys, plus a large number of Latinos are not of Aztec descent. Many other ancient Aztec traditions, such as the surgical removal of human hearts, are wisely prohibited by the church. It seems nothing more than a Catholic-themed debutante ball that has taken on a quasi-sacramental status in the minds of many people. I see very little parallel with a bar/bat mitzvah. Could someone make a reasonable case for allowing them?

 

[puzzleannie]

I can tell you the general practice in this diocese which is 90% Hispanic, mostly of Mexican descent, at least insofar as I have learned it working in 4 parishes. the 15th birthday has a cultural significance for a girl as in past times this was when she was introduced to society, considered ready for courtship (heavily chaperoned) and marriage. In that way it is similar to a debut or cotillion in other cultures. My own mother had a debutante ball, and since her family was both wealthy and prominent, it was a social event, and probably cost a chunk of change, but I don’t hear a lot of bias about that.

Probably a custom already existing, like so many cultural practices, adopted and “baptized” by the missionaries and given new Christian meaning and bases. Here it is primarily a celebration and remembrance of her baptism, and that is the basis of the religous ceremony in Church. that can be a formal one, presided over usually by a deacon, with attendants (boys and girls from among her friends and relatives), or merely a blessing after a regular weekday or weekend Mass. Either way the baptismal godparents usually play a prominent role (similar to Greek and other cultures that emphasize godparents).

The Mexican bishops have an actual approved rite, and the American bishops are close to approving a rite, as I understand. Currently most use either the Mexican rite, or an adaptation suggested by MACC, the Mexican American cultural Center in San Antonio.

preparation is supposed to include teaching on baptism and the other initiation sacraments. here a girl must be attending Catholic school or CCD to have a church celebration. In this diocese Confirmation is conferred at age 16 or 10th grade, so most girls are already in faith formation programs.

what families do for the social celebration is as varied as families and girls themselves. Many girls nowdays don’t want the big party, and instead elect to have a pool party, sleepover or more “American” birthday party.

I can’t say, having been in a rather affluent suburb when my girls were in HS and JR Hi, and seeing the very extravagent spending by parents on proms, 16th birthdays complete with brand new cars, and other events, (sending 8th graders to a dance in limos and even helicopters is one example) can’t say I would single out 15th parties among Mexican-Americans for special criticism.

In any case the baptismal godparents, and other padrinos and madrinas (various relatives and friends) usually are invited and expected to pay part of the expense. If it’s okay with them, its okay with me, who am I to criticize.

I understand from colleagues in other dioceses of Texas where Confirmation is conferred at a younger age, middle grades, 15th has become an event where her preparation includes the aspect of a teen Confirmation program that emphasizes adult acceptance of the faith, service, commitment, discipleship etc, that are part of many such sacramental preparations for teens. I have witnessed 15th for boys, tho not common, one where the candidates were twins, a brother and sister.

We have also been fortunate to be invited to several bar mitzvahs over the years, a very moving religious ceremony, but oftened followed by a very elaborate reception and I don’t recall a lot of criticism about spending on such an event (not to mention the vary elaborate, extravagent first communion parties in hired halls with hundreds of guests common where we grew up).

 

[QuietTimes]

Here are my 2 cents.
I am Mexican, and I am very against this rite of passage.
I think the OP was very right to say that it all comes down to money and how elaborate these things can get. I have 3 daughters I will not be having one for them ever!!
I don’t agree with our parishes allowing them so freely.
I have been to a few and I don’t like to attend them if I don’t have to have to. Why?
Well I think that most of the people that go are not concerned with the meaning of why they are having it in the first place. As PuzzleAnnie has said it is a introduction to society, also that this young lady will be chaste and stay a virgin till marriage. She is having a mass and making these promises before the church and her attendees.
Well let me tell you, at the party here is how it plays out; you go to the mass,
the photographer takes pictures of the court and the quincenera
the quincenera then is introduced with her entrance
then everybody eats and mingles
the quincenera and her court do a waltz
THEN!!!
the quincenera, and the other young girls in her court do a “Suprise” dance
which includes, dancing provacativly in front of all the guest, wearing tiny bitty clothes. and gyrating through out the dance floor, doing a routine dance like N’sync and this is supposed to be like she is grown up And the parents are OK with this!!
Not all quinceneras do this surprise dance but it has become the norm. I was in a few when I was a teenager, when I turned 15 and when it was time for mine I said to my parents NO THANK YOU!!

It is a huge waste of time, money and energy. And I think it’s a joke, also a huge disrespect too.
I also do not know of any girl that has had one that did not end up preggers after she was married.They all usually ended up pregnant, and very young with out a father being around. So where is this promise that they did before everyone and especially God?
It is not a sacrament. I cannot believe the Bishops would allow this, maybe they have not been to the actual party only the mass. I am sure that not all of them pan out like the ones I described, but my sister who goes to these things regularly tells me how they are. and I cannot believe my ears.

 

[puzzleannie]

yes and some (not all) parents of “good” Catholic kids allow them to dance in obscene ways at their school dances, but why would you blame the priest for this? blame the parents.

I have attended dozens of parties for 15ths and have never witnessed the dancing you described. I have also chaperoned the HS dances, and seen it sometimes, and have admonished our own kids about it and we even discuss it during CCD. We also talk about modesty in clothing, blasphemy and obscenity in speech, premarital sex, disgusting music, and all the other evils of the society our kids are exposed to and tempted to copy. I am quite sure some of our kids still participate, no matter what we say.

I know for a fact some of our kids, while still in CCD, or soon after Confirmation, have become pregnant or fathered children, and yes we try to deal with those situations. Are you going to blame the parish because those children participated in our programs?

yours or mine anecdotal evidence based on behavior of some children, some parents, and some families, is not enough for a wholesale condemnation of a practice, one of many, in many cultures. I’m not defending it necessary, because I have some problems with it in that so many parents consider it more important than Confirmation, but I am merely pointing out the failures in logic of both OP and PP.

 

[rosebudsal]

They’ve become a more common occurrence here in Northern New Mexico too. It isn’t something I grew up with, but with immigration and the influence of Mexican culture, we’re seeing them more and more often-- mostly in the parishes with large Mexican immigrants. The Archdiocese has provisions as to how they’re to take place in a church, with the Mass. There are definite guidelines which the girl is to follow but I’ve never attended one, so I don’t know much else.

I’ve read articles recently about all the money that gets spent, the party that follows, all the attendants etc and how parents will do anything to give their daughter that one day. I guess it’s no different than some of those extravagant Sweet Sixteen parties and debutante balls of American society-- but those don’t necessarily attach religious significance to them.

 

[QuietTimes]

yes and some (not all) parents of “good” Catholic kids allow them to dance in obscene ways at their school dances, but why would you blame the priest for this? blame the parents.

I have attended dozens of parties for 15ths and have never witnessed the dancing you described. I have also chaperoned the HS dances, and seen it sometimes, and have admonished our own kids about it and we even discuss it during CCD. We also talk about modesty in clothing, blasphemy and obscenity in speech, premarital sex, disgusting music, and all the other evils of the society our kids are exposed to and tempted to copy. I am quite sure some of our kids still participate, no matter what we say.

I know for a fact some of our kids, while still in CCD, or soon after Confirmation, have become pregnant or fathered children, and yes we try to deal with those situations. Are you going to blame the parish because those children participated in our programs?

yours or mine anecdotal evidence based on behavior of some children, some parents, and some families, is not enough for a wholesale condemnation of a practice, one of many, in many cultures. I’m not defending it necessary, because I have some problems with it in that so many parents consider it more important than Confirmation, but I am merely pointing out the failures in logic of both OP and PP.

Read my post again I did not say that this is the fault of the Bishops or the priests or the parish. It is not a valid sacrament and I don’t agree with what the Bishop intends to do. That is another matter though. What I am saying is that all the extravagance is not needed. And although other cultures have their forms of celebrations I do not agree with having a mass, for this occasion. If the parents want to party it up then fine. But it is all done in vain, and they want a blessing for that?

Yes you are right it is the parents fault.

 

[rosebudsal]

Read my post again I did not say that this is the fault of the Bishops or the priests or the parish. It is not a valid sacrament and I don’t agree with what the Bishop intends to do. That is another matter though. What I am saying is that all the extravagance is not needed. And although other cultures have their forms of celebrations I do not agree with having a mass, for this occasion. If the parents want to party it up then fine. But it is all done in vain, and they want a blessing for that?

Yes you are right it is the parents fault.

You know, if it was just a simple Mass, celebrating her womanhood or whatever it’s supposed to represent, (I honestly don’t know) it would be one thing, but from what I understand, it can be almost like a “mini-wedding” without the bridegroom and the party that follows gets so elaborate, so extravagant, that it’s another. I can’t imagine how expensive it can get.

 

[QuietTimes]

It can go in the thousands. Our neighbors and good friends are having one for their daughter in 2 years and they have started some of the preperations. I know that they are going to ask us, if we will let Yvonne my 12 year old participate. I am probably going to say yes and no to the surprise dance. I don’t know, I say that now I know my DH will have a problem with it all around. So we shall see. It might just be no, period.

 

[John_Lilburne]

… Could someone make a reasonable case for allowing them?

The fact is that a case for allowing them has been successfully made. From the letter of approval:
"At the request of His Excellency, the Most Reverend William Stephen Skylstad, Bishop of Spokane and President of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, in a letter of October 5, 2005, and in virtue of the faculties granted to this Congregation by the Supreme Pontiff BENEDICT XVI, we gladly approve and confirm the text in English and in Spanish of the Order for the Blessing on the Fifteenth Birthday, as in the attached copy. …

All things to the contrary notwithstanding.

From the offices of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, July 10, 2007.

Archbishop Malcolm Ranjith
Archbishop Secretary

Reverend Anthony Ward
Undersecretary"

Information about this is available at usccb.org/liturgy.html . At the bottom of this page there is “Fifteen Questions on the Quinceañera”. To see a PDF of the letters of approval and the texts of the ceremony, click on “Documents” on the left of usccb.org/liturgy.html . Then (last on the list under the heading “Documents of the Holy See”) is “Order for the Blessing on the Fifteenth Birthday”.

In deciding to approve this ceremony, there seems to have been an awareness of issues raised. The Fifteen Questions includes:
“12. Does this celebration sometimes become too costly and extravagant?
Yes. Unfortunately, the advantage of living in a country where material things are readily available often encourages families to give into a competitive consumerism and spend exorbitant sums on such celebrations. The same tendency is often seen in the planning of celebrations of the Sacrament of Marriage. …”

 

[puzzleannie]

I also do not know of any girl that has had one that did not end up preggers after she was married.They all usually ended up pregnant, and very young with out a father being around. So where is this promise that they did before everyone and especially God?
It is not a sacrament. I cannot believe the Bishops would allow this, maybe they have not been to the actual party only the mass. I am sure that not all of them pan out like the ones I described, but my sister who goes to these things regularly tells me how they are. and I cannot believe my ears.

this is your quote, and it sure sounds like you are blaming the bishops who allow a birthday to be observed with a church ceremony, for excesses that happen in the party afterward. A funeral service outside Mass is not a sacrament either, are you going to blame the priest or bishop if people get drunk after the wake and misbehave?

 

[LilyM]

this is your quote, and it sure sounds like you are blaming the bishops who allow a birthday to be observed with a church ceremony, for excesses that happen in the party afterward. A funeral service outside Mass is not a sacrament either, are you going to blame the priest or bishop if people get drunk after the wake and misbehave?

Or a wedding - again people very often spend way way too much on weddings, and misbehave at the reception …

What about First Communions where little girls were/are dolled up (as I was) in white dress and veil like mini-brides, little boys in suits that they will almost certianly never wear anywhere else, and have (as I didn’t so much, but some do) ridiculously big and expensive parties afterwards (think The Godfather).

 

[Tepeyac]

I don’t think that the money spent on quinceañeras is any worse than that spent on graduations, weddings, fancy cruises, hummers with ginormous tires, etc… Even the bishops noted this with regard to weddings in their “Fifteen Questions” linked above. That’s something not limited to any one ethnic group and there’s a reason the term “bridezilla” is well-known today.

That’s not to say that we should encourage excess, but I don’t think the tradition as such encourages it. In my personal experiance I’ve seen a range among my relatives. On cousin had a simple mass with only one chambelan (escort) and a celebration at home. Others have had elaborate affairs with many attendants and large banquets afterwards. One relative asked not to have the celebration but wanted a car instead, when she got her license.

My family is not well-to-do at all but it is very large and very scattered so in essence a quinceañera, like a baptism, wedding, or a funeral, becomes a family reunion. You see family you might not of seen in years but whose help you might need in the future. The ceremony, like lots of ceremonies and rituals, becomes a means of strengthening family and social bonds. These are worthy things in themselves. If the bishops find a way to strengthen the religious aspects as well so much the better.

 

[QuietTimes]

this is your quote, and it sure sounds like you are blaming the bishops who allow a birthday to be observed with a church ceremony, for excesses that happen in the party afterward. A funeral service outside Mass is not a sacrament either, are you going to blame the priest or bishop if people get drunk after the wake and misbehave?

Well take my quote and do with what you will.

I just do not agree with having a 15 and the Bishops agreeing to allowing a mass.

What happens afterwards to me is the problem, yes. I am not blaming anyone other than the families. I just don’t like to see our church get used in such a way, that is obviously in vain.

 

[THurifer2]

I live in the Midwest. In my town of 9000 people there is not a single Latino family living here. 99.9 percent of people here are of European decent. (however it is us small town people who seem to have the desire and welcome those of other cultures) My diocese has a few Latino “pockets” but they are very small. ( BTW I have worked with a few of the latinos with church and just LOVE their family oriented attitude…just wonderful people)

With that in Mind, until I came to CAF I have never heard of such a thing called a quincinera. it seems very very foreign to me.

 

[LilyM]

Well take my quote and do with what you will.

I just do not agree with having a 15 and the Bishops agreeing to allowing a mass.

What happens afterwards to me is the problem, yes. I am not blaming anyone other than the families. I just don’t like to see our church get used in such a way, that is obviously in vain.

What on earth is wrong with permitting a special Mass to celebrate someone’s birthday? How is giving God thanks for someone’s birth - for the gift of their life - and that they’ve reached a milestone of fifteen years of age - in vain? Don’t we celebrate Christ’s birth? John the Baptist’s? Mary’s? Why not our own?

Everyone should go to Mass on every blessed one of their birthdays to thank God for the gift of another year of life, and if the Mass were to be specifically geared to remind us of that fact, so much the better.

 

[Chatter163]

This is a common Hispanic custom and is not no way limited to Mexicans. The Cubans arriving in South Florida in the sixties introduced that community to the Quince celebration, and the subsequent waves of Cubans, Colombians, Nicaraguans, Hondurans, Domincans, Peruvians, Ecuadorans, Guatamalans, Bolivians, et al. have kept this alive and well as a staple over the past generation.

 

[gailmcn]

I have heard in the past that the Quinceaneras celebration comes from some tradition (small t) regarding the Blessed Mother. It involves her serving at the Temple and 15 steps that led up to the temple. Does anyone know exactly what the story is on this particular issue? Gail Mc

 

[kurtmasur]

Hmmm, this is a very interesting discussion.

I come from a Mexican family so the quinceañera concept is nothing new for me. I think the concept is in itself a beautiful tradition. It marks the passage of time when a girl officaly becomes a “Miss” or “Señorita”. In short, the quinceañera mass is a mass of thanksgiving to God for having given the young lady the gift of reaching this important stage in her life.

Afterwards the reception with beautiful cake and waltz follows, and then the dance… basically a socializing moment of family and friends, like in any other major social event like a wedding or Sweet 16. So far so good.

Perhaps what QuietTimes is upset about is that this tradition…especially the dance afterwards, as done in these modern times, has also adapted to reflect the times we currently live in. We live in an age of moral and cultural decay, and unfortunately the quinceañera dance has not been immune to this.

Interestingly enough, my grandmother commented to me once that she laments how quinceañeras nowadays are “nothing as beautiful as they were in her times”. She says that back in her day (1940s), quinceañeras were far more classy, there was more respect between the sexes, and there was none of that provocative dancing that QuietTimes alludes to… oh, and there was better music too…none of that hiphop/rap/regueton trash there is out there today amongst today’s youth.

And to finish, I would like to share my own experience in a quinceañera:

Back in my teenage days (about 10 years ago) I was a chambelán (male escort) in one of these and I remember having to attend the rehearsals leading up to the event. We did a waltz followed by some choreographed “suprise dance”. The only people who took off any clothes was us the guys: All we had to do was to take off our tuxedo jacket, throw it accross the dance floor to our corresponding dama (lady), and then we had to shake our upper body to some latin/tropical music. Granted, we were segregated into guys/girls for the throwing of the jackets. And that was it. Everybody was still fully clothed otherwise.

 

[benedictgal]

At the Cathedral, Quince Anos (the honoree is called the Quincenera, not the celebration) are about as common as the weddings.

They are also a major bone of contention because of the outlandish amounts of money spent, to the point that they rival weddins. I have had to do some of the rehearsals and the lining up of the party and the mothers of the honorees can be as dificult as the mothers of the bride.

Three weeks ago, we had a young lady celebrate her Quince Anos at the Cathedral during the Anticipated Mass for the Solemnity of Christ the King. There was a huge brouhaha because the mother brought in her own celebrant, her own musicians and her own lectors (without telling the church organist/cantor and the parish lector). The celebrant devoted some remarks to Christ the King, but, then he concentrated his homily on the young lady. The organist was upset (he should have been given a bench fee). The musicians played secular pieces and the parts of the Mass were paraphrased. After the parish lector proclaimed the readings, one of the guest lectors (for lack of a better word) decided that she would come up, after the Alleluia was sung, to re-read the second reading. It was a nightmare. To make matters worse, the celebrant consecrated the wine in the carafe (didn’t put the Precious Blood into the chalices) and then told the EMHCs that he would not be distributing the Precious Blood. I discreetly told the EMHCs that they needed to consume the Precious Blood to prevent the profanation of the Sacrament.

Unfortunately, for many of the Quinceneras, it is one of the few times that they will go to Church (honorees, family, friends) and they don’t quite know when to sit, stand or kneel. What many parishes are doing is to require that the honoree and her family be registered as parishioners and that the young lady be enrolled in some sort of faith formation class. This is to ensure that she understands her responsibilities as a young Catholic woman and that she can comprehend her Faith.

At least the USCCB has codified the manner in which parishes are to handle this situation with the ritual book that one of the posters noted in an earlier post. This moves the blessing to after the post-communion prayer. Previously, we had been using the ritual approved for the Mexican Episcopal Conference, which had the ceremony, like the Nuptial Rite, after the homily. But, now, it is where it needs to be.

 

[FrDavid96]

Please forgive my apparent cynicism, but I fail to understand the purpose of the quinceañera. Vast amounts of money are spent on the party, dresses, flowers, musicians (aarghh!), limousines, but in most cases, practically none of it goes to the church. It is claimed to be an ancient Aztec tradition, although it was originally for boys, plus a large number of Latinos are not of Aztec descent. Many other ancient Aztec traditions, such as the surgical removal of human hearts, are wisely prohibited by the church. It seems nothing more than a Catholic-themed debutante ball that has taken on a quasi-sacramental status in the minds of many people. I see very little parallel with a bar/bat mitzvah. Could someone make a reasonable case for allowing them?

Cavaille,

We have many examples of the Church taking a secular event and marking it with a special blessing of the person.

Quasi-sacramental status may sound a bit negative, yet that is the very definition of the word “sacramental” (as opposed to the word Sacrament).

Any ceremony in the church might be abused by some people (we see this especially in weddings). But that doesn’t mean that the Church should not allow sacramentals to be celebrated in the proper way.

As for an a reasonable case for allowing them, the Holy See has given approval. That’s a pretty strong argument in my opinion.