Quotation from "The Glories of Mary"

[Rahn]

Hi all,

I have a regular period of Eucharistic adoration each week. There is a small library in the chapel.

A few weeks ago, I happened on a book called “The Glories of Mary”, by St. Alphonsus Ligouri. On page 155 of this book, the following sentence appears:
“At the command of Mary, all obey, even God”
This quote is attributed to St. Bernardine. The quote is followed by this in way of explanation:
“…meaning to say that God grants the paryers of Mary as if they were commands.”
I actually posted this to the Ask an Apologist forum but it didn’t make the cut. I was going to let it go, but I was at adoration this afternoon and read it again.

I have to say this really bothers me. If you don’t mind me saying it, it seems blasphemous.

I welcome and appreciate your advice.

God Bless You!

 

[NewsTheMan]

I’ll wait for someone else to give a better reply but I always remember this:

The Saints writings are not doctrine. In the same way that if a Catholic down the street said that the moon was really made of cheese, we are not required to believe every little thing the Saints say.

 

[justtryin]

Although we are not bound to these writings, I think I can relate to this one. Mary is the Mother of God the Son. If she asks something of the Son in her capacity as Mother how could He refuse.

Applied to my life: …If someone in my family wanted a favor of me and they thought I might refuse, to whom would they appeal? To my mother of course! How many times my mother would approach me with the phrase, “I need you to do me a favor.” I knew full well someone had gotten to her first. Did I fulfill her request?

WHAT DO YOU THINK? …SHE’S MY MOTHER!!!

I guess you can say I honored her request as if it were a command.

May she rest in peace.

Hope that made sense.

 

[TrueLight]

Sigh. Big difference between request or plea and command.

People taking it too far again.

 

[Dorothy]

Hi all,

I have a regular period of Eucharistic adoration each week. There is a small library in the chapel.

A few weeks ago, I happened on a book called “The Glories of Mary”, by St. Alphonsus Ligouri. On page 155 of this book, the following sentence appears:
“At the command of Mary, all obey, even God”
This quote is attributed to St. Bernardine. The quote is followed by this in way of explanation:
“…meaning to say that God grants the paryers of Mary as if they were commands.”
I actually posted this to the Ask an Apologist forum but it didn’t make the cut. I was going to let it go, but I was at adoration this afternoon and read it again.

I have to say this really bothers me. If you don’t mind me saying it, it seems blasphemous.

I welcome and appreciate your advice.

God Bless You!

Please keep in mind that this is exaggeration to make a point. Our Blessed Mother would not ask anything of God that would not be according to His Will.

 

[Rahn]

I’ll wait for someone else to give a better reply but I always remember this:

The Saints writings are not doctrine. In the same way that if a Catholic down the street said that the moon was really made of cheese, we are not required to believe every little thing the Saints say.

But, St. Alphonsus Liguori is considered a doctor of the church…

 

[Rahn]

Sigh. Big difference between request or plea and command.

People taking it too far again.

I hope you are not referring to me as “people”. The quote is verbatim, except for the misspelling of prayer.

I am truly troubled by this.

 

[Rahn]

Although we are not bound to these writings, I think I can relate to this one. Mary is the Mother of God the Son. If she asks something of the Son in her capacity as Mother how could He refuse.

Applied to my life: …If someone in my family wanted a favor of me and they thought I might refuse, to whom would they appeal? To my mother of course! How many times my mother would approach me with the phrase, “I need you to do me a favor.” I knew full well someone had gotten to her first. Did I fulfill her request?

WHAT DO YOU THINK? …SHE’S MY MOTHER!!!

I guess you can say I honored her request as if it were a command.

May she rest in peace.

Hope that made sense.

It did. And, my mum is deceased, as well, may she rest in peace.

I guess where I have trouble with this is that the Son is God, and the mum is human. Do the same rules apply?

 

[NewsTheMan]

But, St. Alphonsus Liguori is considered a doctor of the church…

I appreciate that, and I celebrate it - as I am entering an order founded by him in some respects (Transalpine Redemptorists - so not founded by Him but in many ways modelled after the Redemptorists). He is a great Saint. But he is not infallible. Nor has the Church declared that all of his writings are doctrinally 100% sound and to be 100% believed. Not as far as I am aware. In any case, I think the writings you presented are problematic only in the modern way we speak and if we take it out of context. In context I think the writings might have a different sound, and might have more to them. It’s also a literary technique. But prima facie I agree that it probably takes things too far.

 

[justtryin]

I guess where I have trouble with this is that the Son is God, and the mum is human. Do the same rules apply?

I don’t know but didn’t the Son become Man(human)?

 

[FromTheAshes777]

Please keep in mind that this is exaggeration to make a point. Our Blessed Mother would not ask anything of God that would not be according to His Will.

very good point and this is also true of ALL the Saints in Heaven

when a person is in Heaven they are always perfectly in the will of God, because they are perfectly pure of any sin or temptation to sin, since there is no sin at all in Heaven. How can a Saint in Heaven ever be outside of the will of God? It isn’t possible.

Our Blessed Mother always prays in accordance with the will of God, she is not capable of doing anything else.

 

[justtryin]

Sigh. Big difference between request or plea and command.

St. Alphonsus and St. Bernardine were trying to show the power and influence of Mary’s intercession. They were by no means saying Mary is commanding God. It is a style of writing and speaking. If anything it shows how much Mary’s will is in accord with the Will of God. One of the most subtly disastrous effects of the reformation has been its insistence of literalism. Not everything is literal. Some things are poetic and figurative.

If you Love someone ( as God love’s His Mother ) when that person makes a request it is AS IF it were a command because you know you are going to see it through. Why?
Out of love! If anything the quote in question does nothing more than demonstrate God’s love for Mary and Mary’s love for God. And by extension their love for us.

 

[TrueLight]

I hope you are not referring to me as “people”. The quote is verbatim, except for the misspelling of prayer.

I am truly troubled by this.

No, I don’t mean you at all. I’m saying in general people tend to take it too far. But I think most people know how I feel about this by now.

 

[TrueLight]

St. Alphonsus and St. Bernardine were trying to show the power and influence of Mary’s intercession. They were by no means saying Mary is commanding God. It is a style of writing and speaking. If anything it shows how much Mary’s will is in accord with the Will of God. One of the most subtly disastrous effects of the reformation has been its insistence of literalism. Not everything is literal. Some things are poetic and figurative.

If you Love someone ( as God love’s His Mother ) when that person makes a request it is AS IF it were a command because you know you are going to see it through. Why?
Out of love! If anything the quote in question does nothing more than demonstrate God’s love for Mary and Mary’s love for God. And by extension their love for us.

Well maybe people shouldn’t be so flowery. That’s always the excuse that is given. Flowery language, etc., etc.

No matter how much someone loves me, and how much I think I can get my way, I know better than to tell someone that I command the person. I’d say, “I’ll talk to him.”

Especially if that person is GOD!

But anyway, I’m sorry I responded. I don’t have the energy.

 

[Will_S]

I appreciate that, and I celebrate it - as I am entering an order founded by him in some respects (Transalpine Redemptorists - so not founded by Him but in many ways modelled after the Redemptorists). He is a great Saint. But he is not infallible. Nor has the Church declared that all of his writings are doctrinally 100% sound and to be 100% believed. Not as far as I am aware. In any case, I think the writings you presented are problematic only in the modern way we speak and if we take it out of context. In context I think the writings might have a different sound, and might have more to them. It’s also a literary technique. But prima facie I agree that it probably takes things too far.

I hope to see your photograph over at papastronsay.blogspot.com sometimes soon!

But if you are going to become a Transalpine Redemptorist, St. Alphonsus is going to be your life’s study and the source of your spirituality. Instead of saying he “went too far”, understand what he is saying.

The point of the original quotation is that the Blessed Virgin Mary’s will and God’s will are inseparable. What God wills, The Blessed Virgin Mary wills, and what the Blessed Virgin Mary Wills, God Wills. There is no contradiction in saying that God works what the Blessed Virgin Mary wills, because the Blessed Virgin Mary wills only what God wills.

As to “commanding”, do you not remember that Jesus subjected himself to the Blessed Virgin and to Joseph, and obeyed them in all things? The Blessed Virgin Mary commanded God, and He obeyed, for as long as He was here on Earth. There is no reason to believe that the relationship between them has changed in Heaven. Jesus Christ is still the Blessed Virgin Mary’s redeemer and God. And she is still His Mother.

Lastly, remember that the the saints in Heaven, including the Blessed Virgin, are not the same as we here on Earth. Our wills are not completely in conformity with the will of God (St. Alphonsus wrote a great book on that topic, by the way), so for us to “command” God would be ludicrous, and wrong. Instead, we have to ask God for His benefits. But the saints in Heaven have absolutely no need to pray to God for their personal benefit as we do. They already possess God for all eternity and want for nothing. So when they pray, it is on our behalf, and they will not pray for that which is contrary to the will of God.

 

[NewsTheMan]

I hope to see your photograph over at papastronsay.blogspot.com sometimes soon!

But if you are going to become a Transalpine Redemptorist, St. Alphonsus is going to be your life’s study and the source of your spirituality. Instead of saying he “went too far”, understand what he is saying.

The point of the original quotation is that the Blessed Virgin Mary’s will and God’s will are inseparable. What God wills, The Blessed Virgin Mary wills, and what the Blessed Virgin Mary Wills, God Wills. There is no contradiction in saying that God works what the Blessed Virgin Mary wills, because the Blessed Virgin Mary wills only what God wills.

As to “commanding”, do you not remember that Jesus subjected himself to the Blessed Virgin and to Joseph, and obeyed them in all things? The Blessed Virgin Mary commanded God, and He obeyed, for as long as He was here on Earth. There is no reason to believe that the relationship between them has changed in Heaven. Jesus Christ is still the Blessed Virgin Mary’s redeemer and God. And she is still His Mother.

Lastly, remember that the the saints in Heaven, including the Blessed Virgin, are not the same as we here on Earth. Our wills are not completely in conformity with the will of God (St. Alphonsus wrote a great book on that topic, by the way), so for us to “command” God would be ludicrous, and wrong. Instead, we have to ask God for His benefits. But the saints in Heaven have absolutely no need to pray to God for their personal benefit as we do. They already possess God for all eternity and want for nothing. So when they pray, it is on our behalf, and they will not pray for that which is contrary to the will of God.

I’m not the OP, I don’t think you were intending this for me were you? I completely understand everything you’ve said (which you did say well!). I said that prima facie it takes things too far i.e. on the face of it it may look like too much but there is context.

Hopefully my face will soon my on Papa Stronsay blog I am finishing university up this year before going over for 4 weeks in January. Hopefully they will accept me.

 

[Rahn]

No, I don’t mean you at all. I’m saying in general people tend to take it too far. But I think most people know how I feel about this by now.

I’m sorry. Didn’t mean to be so sensitive last night.

 

[Rahn]

The point of the original quotation is that the Blessed Virgin Mary’s will and God’s will are inseparable. What God wills, The Blessed Virgin Mary wills, and what the Blessed Virgin Mary Wills, God Wills. There is no contradiction in saying that God works what the Blessed Virgin Mary wills, because the Blessed Virgin Mary wills only what God wills.

Fair enough.

As to “commanding”, do you not remember that Jesus subjected himself to the Blessed Virgin and to Joseph, and obeyed them in all things? The Blessed Virgin Mary commanded God, and He obeyed, for as long as He was here on Earth. There is no reason to believe that the relationship between them has changed in Heaven. Jesus Christ is still the Blessed Virgin Mary’s redeemer and God. And she is still His Mother.

The period of Jesus’s time on Earth between the Nativity and the beginning of His ministry is a bit of a mystery, but the one glimpse we have of it is when He was lost in the temple. His reply to Mary didn’t indicate supplication or apology, it indicated very much the authority of God.

I agree that there had to be a time during that period when Jesus submitted Himself totally to Mary and Joseph (but, if you think about it, Jesus was without sin, so He must have been an easy child to raise Wish my three were without sin ).

But at some point, when He became old enough, He exercised divine authority on Earth. And, I do believe He always exercises divine authority in Heaven. Please don’t misunderstand what I’m saying, I agree wholeheartedly with your last statement here, Jesus Christ is still the Blessed Virgin Mary’s redeemer and God, and Mary is still His Mother. But the notion of God obeying any human (including Mary) is wrong, in my opinion.

Lastly, remember that the the saints in Heaven, including the Blessed Virgin, are not the same as we here on Earth. Our wills are not completely in conformity with the will of God (St. Alphonsus wrote a great book on that topic, by the way), so for us to “command” God would be ludicrous, and wrong. Instead, we have to ask God for His benefits. But the saints in Heaven have absolutely no need to pray to God for their personal benefit as we do. They already possess God for all eternity and want for nothing. So when they pray, it is on our behalf, and they will not pray for that which is contrary to the will of God.

Agree, and I didn’t for a moment think that any saint (and especially Mary) would be in Heaven and not conform to the will of God… that just can’t happen.

I’m beginning to be convinced that this is just unfortunate wording. I’m not that familiar with St Alphonsus’s other works.

I’m sorry to make a fuss about this, and I thank you and the other posters for your advice.

God Bless!

 

[NeedImprovement]

…

I’m sorry to make a fuss about this, and I thank you and the other posters for your advice.

God Bless!

Since you posted the original question roughly 5 days ago, this thread - topic and posts, instead of making a fuss , has had me pondering a lot… .

It has provided me with food for several reflections which I hope to be able to submit in due time.

I was hoping to read some of the surrounding context from the Glories of Mary, but discovered unfortunately I only have Part II of *The Glories of Mary * [Sermons And Meditations] and I believe the quote you’re referencing comes from Part I .

My very first introduction to St. Alphonsus Liguiori, was in *The Way of the Cross *he composed [published by Barton-Cotton Inc.] I’ve never forgotten the brief meditation he provides for the Fourth Station:

Jesus Meets His Afflicted Mother

“Consider how the Son met His Mother on His way to Calvary. Jesus and Mary gazed at each other and their looks became as so many arrows to wound those hearts which loved each other so tenderly.”

So anything I read which St. Alphonsus writes (or is quoting) , I always stay grounded in those two hearts - the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary which love each other “so tenderly” .

Returning to Will S’ s post which says eloquently -The Church holds that Mary always conformed to the will of God - from her existence :

…The point of the original quotation is that the Blessed Virgin Mary’s will and God’s will are inseparable. What God wills, The Blessed Virgin Mary wills, and what the Blessed Virgin Mary Wills, God Wills. There is no contradiction in saying that God works what the Blessed Virgin Mary wills, because the Blessed Virgin Mary wills only what God wills. …

…

To this reply

Fair enough.

The period of Jesus’s time on Earth between the Nativity and the beginning of His ministry is a bit of a mystery, but the one glimpse we have of it is when He was lost in the temple. His reply to Mary didn’t indicate supplication or apology, it indicated very much the authority of God. …

Please permit me to point out that it was precisely subsequent to this occurrence that sacred scripture tells us, only two verses later : ( bolds mine)

[KJV Luke 2:51]

" And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart."

…which I believe is what Will S is alluding to.

Fortuitously enough , page 155 of Part II of The Glories of Mary provides multiple expressions from writers how our Blessed Mother “loved God with her whole heart” (…… which reminds us of another command too … wouldn’t you say ). : … by examples such as
Glories of Mary:

St. Idelphonsus says : “The Holy Spirit heated, inflamed and melted Mary with love, as fire does iron ; so that nothing was seen in her but the flame of this Holy Spirit, and nothing was felt but the fire of the love of God.”

So what I start with as a basis, is the two hearts of Jesus and Mary which love each other tenderly, and Mary fulfilling more completely than any other human ever could, the Commandment (which Jesus called the greatest) “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, thy whole mind and thy whole strength…”

While Jesus , also fulfilled to unsearchable perfection, the Commandment, “Honour thy father and thy mother.” No one knew this commandment better than Jesus - He wrote it. Then he personally exemplified and ratified it all through his Life, Death and Resurrection on this earth.

I begin with those two hearts, keenly attuned to each others’ desires.