Quotes

[n2thelight]

Are these accurate quotes?

“He is a heretic who does not believe what the Roman Hierarchy teaches.” — The American Textbook of Popery, p 164 (quoting from the “Directory for the Inquisitors”).

“Heretics (those who are not members of the Catholic Church or who do not hold to Catholic doctrine) worship a God who is a liar, and a Christ who is a liar.” — St. Augustine, (quoted in “Patrologiae Cursus Completus: Series Graca”, by Fr. J. P. Migne, Paris: 1866, 42:207).

“The church may by divine right confiscate the property of heretics, imprison their person, and condemn them to flames. In our age, the right to inflict the severest penalties, even death, belongs to the church. There is no graver offense than heresy, therefore it must be rooted out.” — Public Eccliastical, Vol. 2, p.142.

“A heretic merits the pains of fire…By the Gospel, the canons, civil law, and custom, heretics must be burned.” — The American Textbook of Popery, p 164 (quoting from the “Directory for the Inquisitors”).

“When confronted with heresy, she (Catholic Church) does not content herself with persuasion, arguments of an intellectual and moral order appear to her insufficient, and she has recourse to force, to corporal punishment, to torture.” — The Rector of the Catholic Institute of Paris, H.M.A. Baudrillart, quoted in The Catholic Church, The Renassance, and Protestantism, p 182-183.

“Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honor Christ if we honor the Pope; we dishonor Christ if we dishonor the Pope. I know very well that many defend themselves by boasting: “They are so corrupt, and work all manner of evil!” But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him.” — St. Catherine of Siena, SCS, p. 201-202, p. 222, (quoted in Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 5: “The Book of Obedience”, Chapter 1: “There is No Salvation Without Personal Submission to the Pope”).

 

[JeanneH]

Are these accurate quotes?

“He is a heretic who does not believe what the Roman Hierarchy teaches.” — The American Textbook of Popery, p 164 (quoting from the “Directory for the Inquisitors”).

“Heretics (those who are not members of the Catholic Church or who do not hold to Catholic doctrine) worship a God who is a liar, and a Christ who is a liar.” — St. Augustine, (quoted in “Patrologiae Cursus Completus: Series Graca”, by Fr. J. P. Migne, Paris: 1866, 42:207).

“The church may by divine right confiscate the property of heretics, imprison their person, and condemn them to flames. In our age, the right to inflict the severest penalties, even death, belongs to the church. There is no graver offense than heresy, therefore it must be rooted out.” — Public Eccliastical, Vol. 2, p.142.

“A heretic merits the pains of fire…By the Gospel, the canons, civil law, and custom, heretics must be burned.” — The American Textbook of Popery, p 164 (quoting from the “Directory for the Inquisitors”).

“When confronted with heresy, she (Catholic Church) does not content herself with persuasion, arguments of an intellectual and moral order appear to her insufficient, and she has recourse to force, to corporal punishment, to torture.” — The Rector of the Catholic Institute of Paris, H.M.A. Baudrillart, quoted in The Catholic Church, The Renassance, and Protestantism, p 182-183.

“Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honor Christ if we honor the Pope; we dishonor Christ if we dishonor the Pope. I know very well that many defend themselves by boasting: “They are so corrupt, and work all manner of evil!” But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him.” — St. Catherine of Siena, SCS, p. 201-202, p. 222, (quoted in Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 5: “The Book of Obedience”, Chapter 1: “There is No Salvation Without Personal Submission to the Pope”).

What does it matter if these quotes are accurate or not? They do not seem to originate from Rome.
Who the heck is Michael Malone and why should we give credence to anything he says?
Again who is Baudrillart?
The only name I recognize is St. Augustine and he speaks the truth, at least IMHO.
Anyway, I don’t think the average poster on this forum has access to these books. From the sound of some of them why would we want them.

Just my thoughts
Jeanne

 

[TheDoctor]

Maybe I am confused, but if you have the citations then does that mean you have the books, and if you have the books doesn’t that mean you can look them up for yourself to see if they are indeed quoted there?

 

[Church_Militant]

Are these accurate quotes?

“He is a heretic who does not believe what the Roman Hierarchy teaches.” — The American Textbook of Popery, p 164 (quoting from the “Directory for the Inquisitors”).

I just did an extensive search. No such book exists, and there is no record anywhere of any except these anti-Catholic conspiracy sites.

Without a way to verify these documents, this allegation has to be discounted as extremely doubtful at best and an outright load of lying propaganda at worst.

“Heretics (those who are not members of the Catholic Church or who do not hold to Catholic doctrine) worship a God who is a liar, and a Christ who is a liar.” — St. Augustine, (quoted in “Patrologiae Cursus Completus: Series Graca”, by Fr. J. P. Migne, Paris: 1866, 42:207).

Can’t argue with him on that. Especially having just dealt with the citation above it.

I would point out though, that the set of the reference works that you cite are about $600.00 a set. Do you own them yourself or are you just quoting misinformation provided by other anti-Catholic sources? In fact, the volumes are all in Greek. Do you have them and if so can you actually read and translate accurately what is contained there? Somehow…I think not.

“The church may by divine right confiscate the property of heretics, imprison their person, and condemn them to flames. In our age, the right to inflict the severest penalties, even death, belongs to the church. There is no graver offense than heresy, therefore it must be rooted out.” — Public Eccliastical, Vol. 2, p.142.

Another citation that cannot be verified. No such document apparently exists. I found only one other reference to this and that was on another anti-Catholic site but it also offered no way to verify its citation. Therefore… this appears to be just more a-C false propaganda.

“A heretic merits the pains of fire…By the Gospel, the canons, civil law, and custom, heretics must be burned.” — The American Textbook of Popery, p 164 (quoting from the “Directory for the Inquisitors”).

Already dealt with…

“When confronted with heresy, she (Catholic Church) does not content herself with persuasion, arguments of an intellectual and moral order appear to her insufficient, and she has recourse to force, to corporal punishment, to torture.” — The Rector of the Catholic Institute of Paris, H.M.A. Baudrillart, quoted in The Catholic Church, The Renaissance, and Protestantism, p 182-183.

Although this is a valid Catholic source, there is apparently no way to verify that this is an accurate quote without access to the book. Do you have it and can you scan that page and post it here for verification? Context is everything…

“Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honor Christ if we honor the Pope; we dishonor Christ if we dishonor the Pope. I know very well that many defend themselves by boasting: “They are so corrupt, and work all manner of evil!” But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him.” — St. Catherine of Siena, SCS, p. 201-202, p. 222, (quoted in Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 5: “The Book of Obedience”, Chapter 1: “There is No Salvation Without Personal Submission to the Pope”).

Yet this is here construed to mean something that if one knows anything about Catherine of Siena, one knows that if one has access to the context of her writing that the meaning would clearly not be what your source has speciously attempted to present it as meaning.

Have you actually read much of what this wonderful lady of God has written? Somehow I doubt it.

So we see here that N2tL is simply copy & pasting from a-C sites without linking to them or even checking for himself to see if the info contained there is accurate.

Gullibility…especially in religious matters is a sad and dangerous thing IMO.

 

[Church_Militant]

BTW…your signature line is a perfect description of your posts here so far.

 

[bpbasilphx]

**The very title “Textbook of Popery” should suggest something about the purpose of this anthology of quotes–and maybe about its authenticity.

However, this is what really made me doubt things:**

<<“Heretics (those who are not members of the Catholic Church or who do not hold to Catholic doctrine) worship a God who is a liar, and a Christ who is a liar.” — St. Augustine, (quoted in “Patrologiae Cursus Completus: Series Graca”, by Fr. J. P. Migne, Paris: 1866, 42:207).>>

**Emphasis added.

WHY, pray tell would St. Augustine–a Latin Father–be found in a GREEK patrology?

Again, I’m skeptical.**

 

[MrS]

BTW…your signature line is a perfect description of your posts here so far.

Agreed:

“When we come to ask ourselves, “Where did I learn this?” it is astonishing to find how much we have imbibed from man, and from tradition; and not directly and for ourselves, from the Word of God.”

I guess the Eunich should have said to Phillip:

“How will I know, unless I do it directly by myself… get off my porch…I mean carriage.”

 

[n2thelight]

Church Militant

I just did an extensive search. No such book exists, and there is no record anywhere of any except these anti-Catholic conspiracy sites.

Don’t get upset with me,I did’nt write the quotes

lightministries.com/ATOP.pdf

MrS Quote:
Originally Posted by Church Militant
BTW…your signature line is a perfect description of your posts here so far.

Agreed

You! who put the catechsims above scripture. You! whom most of all teachings are based on the traditions of man. Please!

“Take care that we lose not that salvation, that life and breath which thou hast given us, for thou art our shepherd, thou art our physician, thou art our governor, thou art our husbandman, thou art finally another God on earth.” Christopher Marcellus in Oration addressing Pope Julius II, in Fifth Lateran Council, Session IV (1512), Council Edition. Colm. Agrip. 1618, (Sacrorum Conciliorum, J.D. Mansi (ed.), Vol. 32, col. 761), (also quoted in History of the Councils, vol. XIV, col 109, by Labbe and Cossart).

 "To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical." The Gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII, Cum. Inter, title 14, chapter 4, "Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium", Column 140, Paris, 1685. (In an Antwerp edition of the Extravagantes, the words, "Dominum Deum Nostrum Papam" (“Our Lord God the Pope”) can be found in column 153).


 "It is quite certain that Popes have never disapproved or rejected this title 'Lord God the Pope' for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome by Gregory XIII." Statement from Fr. A. Pereira.

Do Catholics consider the pope to be God on earth?

 

[cfrancis]

Are you back with more questions?

With regards to your signature: please, provide for us the chapter and verse from Scripture that show us both the books to be included in the Bible and the criteria by which the books are to be chosen.

I eagerly await your reply!

 

[ryanoneil]

This is the same old argument made in Numbers 16:1-11 . Korah was trying to usurp the priestly authority, and he and his followers were punished by God by being swallowed up in the earth.

When we read Jude 11 , where Jude warns us of Korah’s rebellion against God’s priests, we have to ask the question - why would God inspire Jude to warn us about Korah’s rebellion against the Old Testament priests, if there was no hierarchy of priests to obey in the New Testament? The answer is because there is a hierarchy we must obey in God’s New Covenant, and this is the hierarchy of His Church. The Christians of the early church (as well as Christians today) were saying the same things as Korah - hey, we are all members of the faithful and royal priests, so we don’t need a ministerial priesthood! No. God warns us not to “perish in Korah’s rebellion.”

Scripture, therefore, shows us three offices of priesthood in both the Old and New Testaments: In the OT, Aaron was the high priest, Aaron’s sons were ministerial priests, and Israel acted as the universal priests. In the NT, Jesus is our High Priest, ordained bishops and priests are the ministerial priests (through the unbroken lineage of laying on of hands), and we through our baptism our the universal or royal priests (see Exodus 28:1; 19:6; and Heb. 3:1; Rom. 15:16; 1 Tim. 3:1,8; 5:17; Titus 1:7; 1 Peter 2:5,9; Rev. 1:6). The visible and unifying head of the New Testament Church is the pope, the successor of Peter, who is the rock on which Christ has built His Church (Matt. 16:18-19).
scripturecatholic.com

 

[n2thelight]

Again,Peter was not a pope,period

 

[peary]

Originally posted by n2thelight

You! who put the catechsims above scripture. You! whom most of all teachings are based on the traditions of man. Please!

The Catechism EXPLAINS and TEACHES the Faith. It is not placed above scripture but uses Scripture to explain and teach, and vice versa. Again, you know nothing about the Church except what you were erroneously told.

Do Catholics consider the pope to be God on earth?

When Jesus ascended, He placed Simon Peter as head of the Apostles. Since Christ originally fashioned His Church based on the Davidic Kingdom, the one who functions as “prime minister” while the King is away is the one who holds the office of Peter. Catholics do NOT consider the pope to be God on earth. That’s just ridiculous and, again, proves that you know absolutely nothing about the Church.

**It would do you well to do some research on what the Catholic Church teaches before you come into these forums and appear foolish. **

 

[Church_Militant]

Don’t get upset with me,I did’nt write the quotes

lightministries.com/ATOP.pdf

You posted them. Are you saying that you now don’t believe them or that you are not honest enough to check your own sources for veracity before offering them?

Either way, you apparently have been deceived. What will you do about that?

You! who put the catechsims above scripture.

You! Who make this statement that is verifiably a total untruth, though I’m sure that you wish it were true.

Please provide me any authentic Catholic teaching document that even remotely infers such rubbish.

You can’t because no such thing exists and I am waiting to see you admit that you are wrong and do not know what you are talking about.

You! whom most of all teachings are based on the traditions of man.

Please!Hogwash! The fact is that that allegation can best be laid at the feet of almost all of the modern post reformation non-Catholic step children. Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?

“Take care that we lose not that salvation, that life and breath which thou hast given us, for thou art our shepherd, thou art our physician, thou art our governor, thou art our husbandman, thou art finally another God on earth.” Christopher Marcellus in Oration addressing Pope Julius II, in Fifth Lateran Council, Session IV (1512), Council Edition. Colm. Agrip. 1618, (Sacrorum Conciliorum, J.D. Mansi (ed.), Vol. 32, col. 761), (also quoted in History of the Councils, vol. XIV, col 109, by Labbe and Cossart).

A search proves that the only sources for this supposed quote is anti-Catholic sites which offer no other references. However, this was a 16th century event and if it had occurred then verifiable evidence would certainly exist. None does. Got anything better than this?

Even IF this man said this…he is not authoritative and since this is not something that the Catholic Church really teaches, you have here a fine goose for you to chase.

 "To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical." The Gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII, Cum. Inter, title 14, chapter 4, "Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium", Column 140, Paris, **1685.**

(In an Antwerp edition of the Extravagantes, the words, “Dominum Deum Nostrum Papam” (“Our Lord God the Pope”) can be found in column 153).Completely specious. Look at the dates involved here…

Pope John XXII

(JACQUES D’EUSE)

Born at Cahors in 1249; enthroned, 5 September, 1316; died at Avignon, 4 December, 1334.

“It is quite certain that Popes have never disapproved or rejected this title ‘Lord God the Pope’ for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome by Gregory XIII.” Statement from Fr. A. Pereira.

I searched the Vatican site for this as well as New Advent and there is no record of such.

Moreover, if this priest ever said this he was of course dead wrong, just as you are. Without being authoritative, he can say the moon is made of cheese and it will have the same effect on Catholics who will and then just

Do Catholics consider the pope to be God on earth?

Nope. Never have, and never will.

Again,Peter was not a pope,period

Prove it!

 

[ryanoneil]

Again,Peter was not a pope,period

So you say. By what authority?

Can you give any Scriptural proof to back up your statement?

 

[n2thelight]

You all use scripture out of context to show where Christ named Peter as pope,can you show who Peter gave it to,or how it was decided ?

And the scripture,call no man your Father,what does that mean?

Matthew 23:9 “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”

In the meantime

We should consider Christ’s commission to Peter. This is often very embarrassing to Catholics, because Christ commissioned Peter to become chief minister to the CIRCUMCISED, not to uncircumcised Gentiles.

Paul specifically told the Gentile Romans that HE had been chosen to be their Apostle, not Peter. “I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable” (Rom. 15:16). How clear! Paul had the direct charge from Christ in this matter. He even further relates in Romans 15:18 that it was Christ who had chosen him “to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed.”

PAUL Established the Only TRUE Church at Rome during the apostolic era.

(Edited)

remnantofgod.org/pope1.htm#11

 

[placido]

You all use scripture out of context to show where Christ named Peter as pope,can you show who Peter gave it to,or how it was decided ?

And the scripture,call no man your Father,what does that mean?

Matthew 23:9 “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”

In the meantime

We should consider Christ’s commission to Peter. This is often very embarrassing to Catholics, because Christ commissioned Peter to become chief minister to the CIRCUMCISED, not to uncircumcised Gentiles.

Paul specifically told the Gentile Romans that HE had been chosen to be their Apostle, not Peter. “I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable” (Rom. 15:16). How clear! Paul had the direct charge from Christ in this matter. He even further relates in Romans 15:18 that it was Christ who had chosen him “to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed.”

PAUL Established the Only TRUE Church at Rome during the apostolic era.

(Edited)

remnantofgod.org/pope1.htm#11

Now that n2t has decided to mercilessly destroy any trace of credibility that he might have had by copy & pasting from that long discretited SDA extremist wedsite, let’s all pray for his soul.

 

[cfrancis]

Are you back with more questions?

With regards to your signature: please, provide for us the chapter and verse from Scripture that show us both the books to be included in the Bible and the criteria by which the books are to be chosen.

I eagerly await your reply!

Bump for N2…still waiting…

 

[MarcoPolo]

Bump for N2…still waiting…

Adding this thread to my posts to see if a reply will come…

 

[ryanoneil]

You all use scripture out of context to show where Christ named Peter as pope,can you show who Peter gave it to,or how it was decided ?

I don’t believe the term Pope was being used at the time. It is commonly believed that St. Linus was the second bishop of Rome. Irenaeus claims that Pope Linus is the Linus mentioned by St. Paul in his II Timothy 4:21. The passage by Irenaeus (Adv. haereses, III, iii, 3) reads:

After the Holy Apostles (Peter and Paul) had founded and set the Church in order (in Rome) they gave over the exercise of the episcopal office to Linus. The same Linus is mentioned by St. Paul in his Epistle to Timothy. His successor was Anacletus

newadvent.org/cathen/09272b.htm

We should consider Christ’s commission to Peter. This is often very embarrassing to Catholics, because Christ commissioned Peter to become chief minister to the CIRCUMCISED, not to uncircumcised Gentiles.

What is embarrassing about that? Have you forgotten that Peter admitted the first Gentile convert into the Church (Cornelius the Roman centurion), and reported that the Gentiles had accepted the gospel and recieved the Holy Spirit. (Act 10:45; 11:18)

Paul specifically told the Gentile Romans that HE had been chosen to be their Apostle, not Peter. “I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable” (Rom. 15:16). How clear! Paul had the direct charge from Christ in this matter. He even further relates in Romans 15:18 that it was Christ who had chosen him “to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed.”

Your quotes take nothing away from Peter, and does not change the fact of his primacy.

PAUL Established the Only TRUE Church at Rome during the apostolic era.

(Edited)

remnantofgod.org/pope1.htm#11

I don’t think anyone will deny the importance of Paul, but your statement is over the top.

What do you think Peter was doing in Rome when he wrote (1 Pet 5:12-13)?

I write you this briefly through Silvanus, whom I consider a faithful brother, exhorting you and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Remain firm in it. The chosen one at Babylon sends you greeting, as does Mark, my son.

Are these early Christians making stuff up?

‘You have thus by such an admonition bound together the plantings of Peter and Paul at Rome and Corinth." Dionysius of Corinth, Epistle to Pope Soter, fragment in Eusebius’ Church History, II:25 (c. A.D. 178).

“Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:1:1 (c. A.D. 180).

“As Peter had preached the Word publicly at Rome, and declared the Gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had followed him for a long time and remembered his sayings, should write them out.” Clement of Alexandria, fragment in Eusebius Church History, VI:14,6 (A.D. 190)

 

[placido]

I don’t believe the term Pope was being used at the time. It is commonly believed that St. Linus was the second bishop of Rome. Irenaeus claims that Pope Linus is the Linus mentioned by St. Paul in his II Timothy 4:21. The passage by Irenaeus (Adv. haereses, III, iii, 3) reads:

After the Holy Apostles (Peter and Paul) had founded and set the Church in order (in Rome) they gave over the exercise of the episcopal office to Linus. The same Linus is mentioned by St. Paul in his Epistle to Timothy. His successor was Anacletus

newadvent.org/cathen/09272b.htm
What is embarrassing about that? Have you forgotten that Peter admitted the first Gentile convert into the Church (Cornelius the Roman centurion), and reported that the Gentiles had accepted the gospel and recieved the Holy Spirit. (Act 10:45; 11:18)

Your quotes take nothing away from Peter, and does not change the fact of his primacy.

I don’t think anyone will deny the importance of Paul, but your statement is over the top.

What do you think Peter was doing in Rome when he wrote (1 Pet 5:12-13)?

I write you this briefly through Silvanus, whom I consider a faithful brother, exhorting you and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Remain firm in it. The chosen one at Babylon sends you greeting, as does Mark, my son.

Are these early Christians making stuff up?

‘You have thus by such an admonition bound together the plantings of Peter and Paul at Rome and Corinth." Dionysius of Corinth, Epistle to Pope Soter, fragment in Eusebius’ Church History, II:25 (c. A.D. 178).

“Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:1:1 (c. A.D. 180).

“As Peter had preached the Word publicly at Rome, and declared the Gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had followed him for a long time and remembered his sayings, should write them out.” Clement of Alexandria, fragment in Eusebius Church History, VI:14,6 (A.D. 190)

I’m anxiously waiting to see what new subterfuge n2 will come up with !!!