Quran 5:116

[ralphinal]

^ I find your point worrying (convincing)

It looks to me like there is a lot of hate here Muslims don’t want to kill non-Muslims

I think it is more accurate to say ALL Muslims do not want to kill Non-Muslims. There are Muslims who want to kill everyone not exactly like them. That includes other Muslims.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Ughh…this AGAIN? It is NOT “idol worship”!

“Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray FOR us sinners now, and at the hour of our deaths.”

This is “idol worship”? How? It is asking that she pray FOR us, because we believe that she is in Heaven with the Lord, and that as the Mother of God, her intercession on our behalf will be heard by the Lord. Again, how is this “idol worship”? We do not say she IS God. We do not think she is God. You are mistaken.

By the way, is it not written that people will ask Muhammad for his intercession before Allah on the last day? See the highlighted portion of this page. It would seem that those who believe in Muhammad’s intercession believe in it for similar reasons as Catholics believe in the intercession of Mary: Because he is in a special position to intercede on their behalf, as a chosen one of God.

Physician, heal thyself!

I’ve already explained the difference. Regarding the hadith about the intercession through Muhammad, this is on the Day of Resurrection, where everyone who has ever lived is going to be resurrected–will all be alive. You, me, and Muhammad.

So the people will be asking him in person to ask Allah to begin.

There is no asking him while they are alive and he is in the grave.

 

[Sister_Amy]

from what i see through their responses, maybe he isn’t all-knowing after all because an all-knowing will not call honoring a man/woman of God as “worship”. As simple as this, but Muslims cannot even entertain the idea that Muhammad was wrong or that the Quran reflects limited human perspectives that is why they insist on repeating the same Quranic limitations hence proving again and again that these limitations cannot reflect an all-knowing God but they cannot see it, we can see it better since we are not obliged to believe the Quran is from an all knowing God and the book condemns itself compared to Christian theology known before Muhammad was born.

The All-Knowing knows what is worship and what isn’t, while humans might make mistakes since they aren’t all-knowing, right?

 

[Jay53]

I’ve already explained the difference. Regarding the hadith about the intercession through Muhammad, this is on the Day of Resurrection, where everyone who has ever lived is going to be resurrected–will all be alive. You, me, and Muhammad.

So the people will be asking him in person to ask Allah to begin.

There is no asking him while they are alive and he is in the grave.

I’m confused. (Which some days isn’t hard for me, I know ). How is this different from Blessed Mother who is alive in Heaven now and Christians asking for her intercession? (And you can’t tell me she isn’t alive because there have been numerous apparitions and messages from her, some of which I believe Muslims acknowledge.) Thanks.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I’m confused. (Which some days isn’t hard for me, I know ). How is this different from Blessed Mother who is alive in Heaven now and Christians asking for her intercession? (And you can’t tell me she isn’t alive because there have been numerous apparitions and messages from her, some of which I believe Muslims acknowledge.) Thanks.

Muslims believe that Mary is neither alive nor in “Heaven” right now. If they believe she is, then they are wrong, according to Islam.

The difference is a human being asking a person who is not present (not even in this life) for something (i.e., asking Mary for something right now), vs. a human being asking another human being in person (in the same life).

Or maybe I could say (though this might be even more confusing) that you can’t ask a dead person to do something for you until you’vde died too and you’ve both been resurrected.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Salaam/peace

… Blessed Mother who is alive in Heaven now .

Is there any verse in Bible that says she is alive in Heaven now ? Muslims believe she will be in heaven on the Judgment day.

Pray to her or any human being is considered as shirk/ blasphemy. We should pray to God only.

 

[ralphinal]

The All-Knowing knows what is worship and what isn’t, while humans might make mistakes since they aren’t all-knowing, right?

I’d say that is fair.

Likewise, since no human is all=knowing, then no one has the right to claim that anyone is worshiping anyone incorrectly.

Right?

 

[planten]

Does Allah understand intentions or is he limited to what he sees? from Muslims’ responses, it seems Allah’s perception is limited to the appearance of things.

** inJesus, you are short sighted. You are asking a question and at same time giving (assuming) a bad answer.**

So if a Christian bows down/kisses a picture/statue of Mary, to Allah it is worshippin her even if the intention is clear, yet Allah asks angels to bow down to a mere human and Sister Amy tells us “don’t ask why”. Maybe Allah thinks that sportsmen who bown down before their fans are worshipping them, after all that’s how much he understands

.

** Allah does not have to think. You are wrong. It is not necessary to just have good intentions. In that way you may be worshiping an idol with good intentions. You know that you are wrong simply relying on your good intentions. The good intentions have their area. You cannot CROSS any limit just with intentions. Good intentions are necessary. But they must be proved by good actions.**

This is what meaningless legalism leads to when the heart means absolutely nothing.

Even if heart means good things, it is not allowed do anything wrong, anything which is forbidden. We see here now that christians are openly worshipping Mary and giving some other name to that worship and at same time they are accusing Allah for not knowing what they had been doing for a very long time in the past. i.e. worship of Mary.

If we want to start using narrow-minded arguments, then muslims are the worst associators of God since they cannot utter the word Allah without mentioning Muhammad. Muhammad was the worst mushrik when he claimed Allah swore by him and that Allah asked angels to bow down to humans. Piece of cake, but it seems we can see beyond things while Muslims seem to suggest that the creator’s perception is limited.

**There is no harm in keeping the name of Muhammad with Allah to show that he is the servant and messenger of Allah. That Muhammad is not a god.

You could have kept the name of Jesus with your Father God as a messenger of God and as a prophet of God and as a humble servant of God. There would have been no harm. But you stepped forward and leaped into ignorance and Shirk and blasphemy by making Jesus a god.

Now your friends are telling us that Jesus is God but God is not Jesus. What funny theories you people have ! Not one but many un-natural, irrational theories. The inexplainable Trinity, and the strange pregnancy, and Jesus is God but God is not Jesus and One in three and three in one. There is a long list of your interesting beliefs.

But we see that coal is calling the others black here and finding fault with the immaculate teachings.**

 

[planten]

Muslims claim that Mohammad was sent to correct the alleged “corruption” and “deviations”. So the correction for “Love God and your neighbor as yourself” is “Kill the infidels wherever you find them” ?

**Jesus said “Love your neighbor”. In Islam, in Quran there is much more than that for the neighbor. You people have just one sentence about the neighbor. In Quran there are much more (many) verses about good behavior for the neighbor, so much that neighbor was almost going to be made a partner in the inheritance.

Then your ignorance about kill the infidels. I know you love the infidels and you want to save the infidels. You are so good that you do not want to harm any infidel. There is no teaching to kill any non-Muslim. There is only strictness about the open enemies of Islam, i.e. the war mongers, the Kafirs.

There were kafirs at the time of Jesus too. But you do not understand anything about such things. You have been deeply misled into wrong thinking. You are not any where near the real teachings of Jesus, the great man of God.**

 

[planten]

no rather it is “obey Allah and fight those who do not believe in Allah or Muhammad”
what you quoted was specific if i recall well but fighting for Allah is eternal.

** inJesus, there is No such thing… Give your reference. It is necessary to be preaching peacefully and striving hard to spread the truth on all sides. If you call that fight then you are wrong, not Islam.

It is necessary to fight the enemy. Your theory of “Love thy enemy” was only in very difficult special circumstances in the time of Jesus. That was also not wrong. But it was not the real good teaching for mankind. You see the system (law) of punishments in world. Do you think they are all fools who have legislated punishments for the criminals?

That “Love thy enemy” was right but it was for the down trodden Jews of the time of Jesus who were highly misled people under the bad teachings of their clergy and were under foreign occupation. That was a very difficult task for Jesus. He gave the right advice for that time. It was not for ever. It was the only way that the Jews could get out of their miserable condition.

But you people have taken that good advice as if it is forever. It shows you do not really under the teachings of Jesus and you do not want to understand. But you are ready (busy) to find faults with Islam. There is no fault in Islam.**

 

[dzheremi]

I’ve already explained the difference. Regarding the hadith about the intercession through Muhammad, this is on the Day of Resurrection, where everyone who has ever lived is going to be resurrected–will all be alive. You, me, and Muhammad.

So the people will be asking him in person to ask Allah to begin.

Sorry, Sister Amy. I did not see your explanation before making that post.

There is no asking him while they are alive and he is in the grave.

As I seem to say to a lot of your posts lately, this is fine from a Muslim perspective but would not be acceptable for a Catholic. We believe that the saints who are in heaven can intercede for us right now. There is no “well, they are just waiting around in the grave, THEN on the last day they’ll be alive and we can ask them in person”.

My point in saying that they (Muslims) seem to believe in the intercession of Muhammad on a similar basis that Christians do: Muhammad, as a chosen person of God, is one who will be able to intercede for them. Similarly, to Catholics (and Orthodox), Mary can intercede for us. The fact that Muslims will do it later while Catholics do it now makes no difference to us, since we do not believe as you do that our requests in this area will not be heard until the last day. The saints are in heaven now, they can hear us now, so we ask for their intercession now.

 

[planten]

Am amused when Muslims claim Muhammad came to correct and clear doubts. When it comes to Jesus who is a major problem between Jesus’ followers and Muhammad’s, muslims claim He was not crucified, but they don’t know what “appeared as such” means; when it comes to His birth, it is considered a “miracle” in Islam, yet a miracle neither seen nor proved nor serves any purpose for humanity; and when it comes to His return, He will return to lead humans to Islam, why Jesus and not Muhammad? because Jesus did not die and must come back to die, why didn’t He die? because “it appeared as such” yet no one knows what it means. But still Muhammad came to “clear doubts”, methink we need another prophet to clear Muslims’ doubts…but heck, Muslims “hear and obey”, beyond that “it is not essential”.

**inJesus, an interesting post, jugglery of words from you. It is clear from Quran that Jesus did not die on the cross. He appeared to be dead. He later revived and got up in the spacious tomb. His legs were not broken. Everybody said that he was dead. Nobody there COULD say that Jesus was alive. But christians do not understand all that.

The Quran is from the One God and it is telling that Jesus did not die on the cross. That was necessary, to prove that he was not a cursed person. Crucified means dying on the cross, not just putting up on the cross.

There is no doubt in the minds of the Muslims that Jesus miraculously survived the ordeal of the cross. He migrated to a foreign land and lived a long healthy happy life. He himself had said that “A prophet is not welcome in his own country…”. All that is in the bibleNT. He was not welcome in Palestine. So he left the place in search of the lost sheep of Israel.

Slowly, the people are learning the truth. Jesus later died at a ripe age of 120 years. he will never come back in this world again. Dead people do not come back. But another person, the like of Jesus, from the Ummah of Muhammad is understood to come. That is understood from the Hadith with an oath of Allah which says that “Surely Isa ibne Maryam will land amongst you…” That is not the old Isa. There is sufficient proof in that Hadith that it is not going to be the same old Isa a.s.**

.

 

[planten]

I’m confused. (Which some days isn’t hard for me, I know ). How is this different from Blessed Mother who is alive in Heaven now and Christians asking for her intercession? (And you can’t tell me she isn’t alive because there have been numerous apparitions and messages from her, some of which I believe Muslims acknowledge.) Thanks.

**It is not allowed to pray to any one except God. It is not allowed to pray to (i.e. ask) any person who has passed away from this life. Only a request can be made to a living person (Like the living Pope) to pray to the One God for any need of the requesting person.

Dead people are gone away forever, never to come back to this world. Their account is closed. They cannot do anything good or bad now before the resurrection. They need our prayers so that their ranks with God may be raised higher and higher. Nobody is alive in the grave or heavens. If they are alive then that is a different life which we cannot understand. They may be alive spiritually only…**.

 

[srp643]

A basic question - are mothers of other “prophets” mentioned in the Korane frequently like Mary is or is she somehow singled out or emphasized for some kind of special reverence? Why all these references to Mary?

 

[planten]

A basic question - are mothers of other “prophets” mentioned in the Korane frequently like Mary is or is she somehow singled out or emphasized for some kind of special reverence? Why all these references to Mary?

**Mary is highly respected and mentioned in the Quran at a few places. Even Allah gives the example of all good believers with the wife of Pharoah (king of Egypt) and with the mother of Jesus. That is, all Muslims are being considered (likenedas pious) as the mother of Jesus.

Please remember that the name of Jesus and his mother has become a slogan (or technical word) in Islam for the purity of faith. Yet we are all strictly forbidden to worship Jesus or Mary.

There is some mention of the good mother of Moses, how she (while in danger for the life of Moses) acted on the voice of Allah to put her child in flowing water. Allah talked to the mother of Moses a.s. and also (much more) to the mother of Jesus. It is all beautifully described in the Quran. It is worth reading.**

 

[Jay53]

Muslims believe that Mary is neither alive nor in “Heaven” right now. If they believe she is, then they are wrong, according to Islam.

The difference is a human being asking a person who is not present (not even in this life) for something (i.e., asking Mary for something right now), vs. a human being asking another human being in person (in the same life).

Or maybe I could say (though this might be even more confusing) that you can’t ask a dead person to do something for you until you’vde died too and you’ve both been resurrected.

I guess this would just fall under the “agree to disagree” category because I (and other Catholics) do believe that Mary IS alive in Heaven right now. I’m not sure how Muslims reconcile the existence of all of the Marian apparitions in various parts of the world, i.e. Mexico, Portugul etc. Do you/they just believe all these people are delusional? If it was one person with no witnesses I could see that - but so many people being “duped” or “hallucinating” at the exact same time? Not very likely. I guess this is just a theological difference that’s not reconcilable, Catholics aren’t about to change their opinion about this, and I doubt Muslims will either.

 

[Steven_John]

I thought the Quran was believed to be given by God to a specific people in their language so they may understand.

I don’t know what ALL Christians there at that time were practicing or believing.

It may have relevance to the words of the Quran.

Today we have great diversity in Christian belief and practice.

An idol is anything we put before and above God.

I know in history men would make statues, images and worship them.
I have not met any on where i live that does this.

Where the bible warns against making images i feel it would be safe to assume this is what was spoken against.

If some one in front of a statue says i do not worship the statue i worship God what would i need to warn them of? Surely if i go on and on at them i would be beyond gently warning.

If some one says i do not worship Mary (bbhn),
( i dont doubt it is possible some 1500 years ago some may have, and even now some might.)
I dont need to harp on at the one that told me they don’t, it is not for them to bare the burdens of others nor is it my call to place the burden on them.

No one can steal Jesus (pbwh) from what i am understanding both Muslims and Christians say it is by Gods command that he was conceived in Mary (bbhn) a submitting woman. Both believe Jesus (pbwh) was given the pure spirit / holy spirit.

People of all religions fall to cherry picking scripture even their own.

God has commanded His people to initiate killing for Him,
in my heart I am sure He does not take joy in doing so but has done it as a mercy for us.
Yes God has given us the right to defend ourselves and His people but we all know it is self sacrifice He really wants. The sacrifice of our selves for Him and others.
How much sacrifice do we make in our posts?

Catholic teaching is that Muslims are seeking worship of the God of Abraham (pbwh) the same God as Catholics please do not even lightly suggest this God may not be all knowing.

Is Mary (bbhn) alive and able to hear? well while the bible does not say this but it does have narration of conversation with Moses (pbuh) long after his passing from flesh. So given who Mary (bbhn) was it is fair those referring to the bible would assume so.

Personally Jesus (pbwh) teaches in the bible to pray to God and i don’t know of him teaching anything other way.
Jesus (pbwh) is the only teacher for Christians.

The teaching of Love your enemy is the best teaching for mankind for all time. Jesus (pbwh) was given the pure spirit.

In love we do discipline, if i am under attack and so are my fellow believers and God inspired in me that i was to take the life of the aggressor so His will would be done it would not stop me from loving the aggressor.

if one does not have love for ones enemy they will not have peace, if you do not have peace you will not see clearly. If you don’t see clearly you will become easy target for satan and grow hate in your heart. Allah does not want this for us.

When people agree to disagree this is a fair path, if both have sown seeds in each other by His will God will harvest what is His.

 

[morning_star777]

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Salaam/peace

Is there any verse in Bible that says she is alive in Heaven now ? Muslims believe she will be in heaven on the Judgment day.

Pray to her or any human being is considered as shirk/ blasphemy. We should pray to God only.

So what if there is any verse of bible support that mother Mary is alive in Heaven?You do not believe bible ,so if bible has thousand verses that support it, still you will not believe.And about pray to Mary?Alas sister!here Catholic friends explain it thousand times that pray to Mary is not worship,but you are repeating your wrong claims .So I guess,you will never understand because you do not want to understand.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I’d say that is fair.

Likewise, since no human is all=knowing, then no one has the right to claim that anyone is worshiping anyone incorrectly.

Right?

Right. No human has that right.

Only God has that right.

Right?

(That being said, we may refer to the ayah in the thread title, which does not say that anybody worships Mary, but rather that Jesus never instructed anyone to worship her.)

 

[Sister_Amy]

I guess this would just fall under the “agree to disagree” category because I (and other Catholics) do believe that Mary IS alive in Heaven right now. I’m not sure how Muslims reconcile the existence of all of the Marian apparitions in various parts of the world, i.e. Mexico, Portugul etc. Do you/they just believe all these people are delusional? If it was one person with no witnesses I could see that - but so many people being “duped” or “hallucinating” at the exact same time? Not very likely. I guess this is just a theological difference that’s not reconcilable, Catholics aren’t about to change their opinion about this, and I doubt Muslims will either.

It is very simply to explain and dismiss simultaneously. Marian apparitions have absolutely no basis in Islamic theology and are not in any way a part of the religion. If you dispute this, I want you to find me a Muslim scholar (someone who actually knows a thing or two about Islamic theology) who has some proof contrary to what I say.

On the other hand, there are many things in which Muslims believe that are not explained in detail. Muslims believe in angels, for instance, as part of the Unseen World. There are also other creations in which Muslims believe, that are part of the Unseen. Some benign and some mischievous, and that such creatures might attempt to “dupe” people into believing something against Islam is certainly within the realm of possibility. The explanation you have offered, however, does not hold water with Islamic creed.

I certainly hope you don’t base your faith on apparitions that you’ve never seen. I don’t think you do, but that being the case I would like to give this issue of Marian apparitions a rest–they have no basis in Islam whatsoever.