Quran - Divinely Inspired

[hawk]

It is imperative to note that Islam claims the Qur’an is the product of one entity, it is the speech of Allah. It is perfect.

Here are two accounts of a conversation purported to have occurred between Iblis and Allah.

You would think that they would have to be identical, since they refer to just one conversation.

If they are not perfectly identical, then only one can be correct, and the other is a fabrication.

Content wise they are identical, more or less, but Allah quotes Himself and Iblis differently in different places.

This is proof enough that the Quran is not of divine origin, like it claims.

[al-Hijr 15:32] (God) said: “O Iblis! what is your reason for not being among those who prostrated themselves?”

[al-Hijr 15:33] (Iblis) said: “I am not one to prostrate myself to man, whom Thou didst create from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape.”

[Sad 38:75] (God) said: “O Iblis! What prevents thee from prostrating thyself to one whom I have created with my hands? Art thou haughty? Or art thou one of the high (and mighty) ones?”

[Sad 38:76] (Iblis) said: “I am better than he: thou createdst me from fire, and him thou createdst from clay.”

 

[catholica]

Isn’t this circular?

To go along with it, we would have to already believe that the Quran is Divinely Inspired.

Before considering the argument “The Quran is Divinely inspired”, I would have to hear a good argument for “God (Allah) gave new revelation to Mohammed”

 

[But_for_Grace]

Isn’t that the point, they can claim anything on the basis of divine revalation, and then they defend those ludicrist claims by this self-imposed immunity. What is worse, many people believe them.

 

[hawk]

catholica:

Isn’t this circular?

To go along with it, we would have to already believe that the Quran is Divinely Inspired.

Before considering the argument “The Quran is Divinely inspired”, I would have to hear a good argument for “God (Allah) gave new revelation to Mohammed”

God gave new revelation to Mohammed, because people had twisted and changed the teachings.
The teachings are that none shall be joined in worship with the “One God”.
Yet no other faith adheres to this strict oneness except judaism, and the jews werent spreading the word of God.

Its important to note that Jesus says

These are the two most important commandments
That you shall love your God
That you shall love your neighbour.

To understand islam, it is imperative to understand when certain suras were allegedly revealed.

Muslims will not share this with you.

They will variously say that the Quran is eternal, but must be understood in context.
There are some muslims that say that there is no abrogation of verses.
Others will say there is abrogation.
Like in Christianity there are varied interpretations of the Quran.

I am of the belief that one must consider the time of the alleged revelation, since that is the only way one can understand the context of the verses.

Sura 9 is believed to be one of the last suras revealed.
Many muslim scholars believe that this sura abrogates many others. However there is no universal consensus on this opinion.

Sura 9 (At-Tauba) talks about treatment of pagans and “people of the book” amongst other things.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-Tawba

You will notice in particular that the tone towards people of the book, ie. Jews and Christians has changed considerably from previously revealed suras.

This is because by now, most of arabia was muslim.
The remaining Jews and Christians were never going to convert to Islam.
Mohammed believed that the best way to islamicise arabia was to wipe out the local Christians and Jews.

The ayah

9:30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth

Is etremely interesting. Remember the greatest and only unforgivable sin in islam is shirk (associating partners with Allah)

Always bear in mind that the Quran is allegedly the exact word of God.

Here Allah is allegedly saying, that jews call ezra the son on Allah. and Christians call Jesus the son of Allah.
There is very little case to say that jews ever divinised Ezra.
This is a war mongering statement.

Mohammed is saying that you can attack Christians and Jews because they are cursed even by God.

But what is also interesting is that Allah says “Allahs curse be upon them”

This is strange shouldnt it be “Our curse be upon them”?

Unless Mohammed made this verse up!!!

 

[But_for_Grace]

hawk:

Unless Mohammed made this verse up!!!

which verses didn’t he make up?

 

[hawk]

which verses didn’t he make up?

Now honestly I believe that Mohammed had the best intentions for the people he preached to.
It was a good work, as works of man go.

He taught cleanliness, he taught prayer, he taught fear of God.

**
38. And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us; and we forbade him, because he followeth him, because he followeth not us. 39. And Jesus said, Forbid him not; for there is no man who, if he has performed a miracle in my name, can easily speak evil of me. 40. For he who is not against us is for us.
**

Remember that Islam is not bad, neither is it the Truth.

Dont you worry about muslims, nor about people converting to islam, Let God take care of His own. The truth shall always prevail.

If you are priveledged to know the Truth, speak it in your turn.

Then pray for Gods mercy, and join your brothers in islam, that God deliver us from the world.

 

[UnworthySoul]

He also taught conversion by the sword. To say he did not is to ignore HOW he accomplished his first conversions. Through subjugation via the sword. That is fact. He was not in this for religion, he was in it for power.

 

[UnworthySoul]

hawk:

Now honestly I believe that Mohammed had the best intentions for the people he preached to.
It was a good work, as works of man go.

He taught cleanliness, he taught prayer, he taught fear of God.

38. And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us; and we forbade him, because he followeth him, because he followeth not us. 39. And Jesus said, Forbid him not; for there is no man who, if he has performed a miracle in my name, can easily speak evil of me. 40. For he who is not against us is for us.

Remember that Islam is not bad, neither is it the Truth.

Dont you worry about muslims, nor about people converting to islam, Let God take care of His own. The truth shall always prevail.

If you are priveledged to know the Truth, speak it in your turn.

Then pray for Gods mercy, and join your brothers in islam, that God deliver us from the world.

Your quote from John does not apply here. Islam does not recognize the Divinity of Christ so they are certainly not “with Him” at all.

 

[hawk]

UnworthySoul:

He also taught conversion by the sword. To say he did not is to ignore HOW he accomplished his first conversions. Through subjugation via the sword. That is fact. He was not in this for religion, he was in it for power.

I do not know his initial motivations.

His first conversions were not by the sword at all.
They were extremely peaceful.

In fact conversion by the sword, never really happened until the muslims were very strong and controlled Medinah.

The only conversions by war that I know of were conversions of the Meccan idolaters.
And this conversion was with very little bloodshed.

If you know of any such conversions please provide a source.

By the end ofcourse I am aware that there is an element of power-grasping by Mohammed. Though even that is debatable.

Mohammed was not a static personality, there are changes in his behaviour and attitude over time.

In Mecca he is pious and subdued.

Towards the end, at Medinah, he is more aggressive. Though at all times he is compassionate to those who accepted his position as the apostle of Allah.

It is only those that rejected it completely that faced his wrath.

 

[hawk]

UnworthySoul:

Your quote from John does not apply here. Islam does not recognize the Divinity of Christ so they are certainly not “with Him” at all.

Do not be so sure.

None know how Christ works amongst us.

Be humble and believe, a pious muslim is better than a non-beleiving Christian, I believe.

 

[UnworthySoul]

hawk:

I do not know his initial motivations.

His first conversions were not by the sword at all.
They were extremely peaceful.

In fact conversion by the sword, never really happened until the muslims were very strong and controlled Medinah.

The only conversions by war that I know of were conversions of the Meccan idolaters.
And this conversion was with very little bloodshed.

If you know of any such conversions please provide a source.

By the end ofcourse I am aware that there is an element of power-grasping by Mohammed. Though even that is debatable.

Mohammed was not a static personality, there are changes in his behaviour and attitude over time.

In Mecca he is pious and subdued.

Towards the end, at Medinah, he is more aggressive. Though at all times he is compassionate to those who accepted his position as the apostle of Allah.

It is only those that rejected it completely that faced his wrath.

I will get you sources when I get off work. But it is fact.

 

[UnworthySoul]

hawk:

Do not be so sure.

None know how Christ works amongst us.

Be humble and believe, a pious muslim is better than a non-beleiving Christian, I believe.

Believe in Mohammed/the Quran? Never.

As to who knows how Christ works in amongst us, the Catholic Church knows because that is what Christ intended. If you are a recent convert to Catholicism as someone in another thread said, you need to learn that this is one of our beliefs. The Catholic Church has the Eternal Truth given to us by Christ. Not Mohammed.

A pious Muslim? I’ve no problem with them. But a pious Catholic is better than a non-believing Muslim.

 

[hawk]

UnworthySoul:

Believe in Mohammed/the Quran? Never.

As to who knows how Christ works in amongst us, the Catholic Church knows because that is what Christ intended. If you are a recent convert to Catholicism as someone in another thread said, you need to learn that this is one of our beliefs. The Catholic Church has the Eternal Truth given to us by Christ. Not Mohammed.

A pious Muslim? I’ve no problem with them. But a pious Catholic is better than a non-believing Muslim.

Yes the catholic church speaks the Truth and protects it.

However God works in mysterious ways, make allowance for it.

Everything serves its purpose in Gods great plan. Dont be so quick to condemn, that is the domain of only our Lord Jesus.

Islam too serves its purpose.

 

[selvaraj]

Who revealed Quran? Satan revealed Quran to Mohammed.

Bible says clearly in, 2Corinthians 11:14
Well, no wonder! Even satan can disguise himself to look like an angel of light!

In Christ,
selvaraj

 

[Eetaq]

Hawk your attacks are clearly uneducated.

Pick up any qur’an translation NOT ONLINE, but in book form, and it will clearly tell you when the sura was revealed, what was going on at the time, the history, why it came down (if there is a possibly known reason) and so on.

This conversatino between allah and Iblis does not at all prove that the qur’an isnt devine, it merely shows that in different parts of the qur’an different dialogue was important. To show the exact same words in two different parts would be redundant, and since the qur’an teaches lessons, it taught two lessons with one dialogue.

And, your trying to act like surat at-Tawba ‘over rides’ the rest of the qur’an is obscene, it is offensive, and it is ignorant. The WHOLE qur’an is what matters, if Allah said you can never change it than why would any muslim believe that any one part of it over rides another part…wouldn’t that be changing it?

You act like you know Islam, but all you do is come here and use twisted evidence to prove invalid points.

Watch your step hawk, because if we continue to prove you wrong like we did Proud Kafir even the catholics who WANT to make Islam look bad will lose respect for you.

 

[hawk]

Eetaq:

Hawk your attacks are clearly uneducated.

Pick up any qur’an translation NOT ONLINE, but in book form, and it will clearly tell you when the sura was revealed, what was going on at the time, the history, why it came down (if there is a possibly known reason) and so on.

I completely agree.

This conversatino between allah and Iblis does not at all prove that the qur’an isnt devine, it merely shows that in different parts of the qur’an different dialogue was important. To show the exact same words in two different parts would be redundant, and since the qur’an teaches lessons, it taught two lessons with one dialogue.

Firstly if you are going to quote, then you must quote exactly!!!

Do you think that Allah (swt) does not know this?

And repeating the story in at least 2 suras is not redundant?

Never mind that they are not even repeated accurately.

BTW: what are the two lessons?

And, your trying to act like surat at-Tawba ‘over rides’ the rest of the qur’an is obscene, it is offensive, and it is ignorant. The WHOLE qur’an is what matters, if Allah said you can never change it than why would any muslim believe that any one part of it over rides another part…wouldn’t that be changing it?

Far be me from claiming anything of the sort.

I am simply presenting a school of thought, I think I made it clear that not every school of thought beleives in abrogation.

But while we are on the subject, why dont you educate our friends about nasikh and mansookh verses?

You act like you know Islam, but all you do is come here and use twisted evidence to prove invalid points.

Watch your step hawk, because if we continue to prove you wrong like we did Proud Kafir even the catholics who WANT to make Islam look bad will lose respect for you.

I will, thank you for warning me.

 

[Eetaq]

Lesson 1: Do what Allah says, submit to his will.

Lesson 2: NEVER ever be proud. Pride is strictly forbidden, as it is a characteristic of the Devil himself.

And, You dont have to quote exactly, we made that rule in English grammar, Allah makes whatever grammatical rules he wishes. The qur’an doesnt have arabic punctuation, it has qur’an punctuation, and this isnt the only instance.

As far as those two verses, I dont know what you’re referring to.

 

[hawk]

Eetaq:

And, You dont have to quote exactly, we made that rule in English grammar, Allah makes whatever grammatical rules he wishes. The qur’an doesnt have arabic punctuation, it has qur’an punctuation, and this isnt the only instance.

Interesting that you should claim such a thing.

What is Qur’an punctuation?

The Concise Encylopedia of Islam under the heading “Koran, Chanting”
states:

“only the canonical arabic text, as collected and compiled under the
caliph uthman with the consensus of the companions (ijma as-sahaabah) may
be recited, in one of the seven acceptable versions of the punctuation and
vocalization (al-qiraat as-sab). THESE, THOUGH FIXED ONLY IN THE 4TH
CENTURY OF THE HIJRAH, ARE TAKEN TO CORRESPOND TO THE SEVEN AHRUF
(“LETTERS”, “VERSIONS” OR POSSIBLY “DIALECTS”) OF THE KORAN WHICH
ACCORDING TO A HADITH, THE PROPHET REFERED TO AS ALL HAVING DIVINE
AUTHORITY. IN PRACTICE, ONLY TWO OF THE SEVEN READINGS HAVE BECOME
CUSTOMARY: IN EGYPT, FOR EXAMPLE, THE READING OF HAFS ACCORDING TO THE
SCHOLAR ABU BAKR ASIM; AND IN THE REST OF AFRICA THAT OF NAFI (OR WARSH).”
[3, pp. 232]

So does Allah forget and recount verses differently?
Do you mean to say that Allah cannot remember what the conversation really is?

Now I would like to ask you,

How do the two different versions of the story that I have presented teach you the two different lessons you have pointed out?

You would have to show that one verse teaches one lesson and the other verse another lesson to make them both relevant and necessary

 

[Pug]

I’ve heard the “abrogation” concept before in regard to the Koran. Is it really believed by many Muslim people or is it a small group only that holds to that?

 

[hawk]

Pug:

I’ve heard the “abrogation” concept before in regard to the Koran. Is it really believed by many Muslim people or is it a small group only that holds to that?

Every muslim must believe in abrogation, since verses in the Qur’an speak about it.

Here is one relevant verse

In chapter 2:106, the Qur’an plainly indicates,

"Such of our revelation as we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof."

In their interpretation of this verse (p. 16), the Jalalan say that God’s intention for this verse is,

“To eliminate the ordinance of the verse either with its wording or to keep the wording and eliminate the ordinance, or we make you O, Muhammad, to forget it; namely, we will remove it from your heart”

So abrogation does take place, but to what extent and how does it take place is the question.

Muslims believe that there was progressive revelations, as the society of Arabia became islamicised.