Quran - Divinely Inspired

[Pug]

“To eliminate the ordinance of the verse either with its wording or to keep the wording and eliminate the ordinance, or we make you O, Muhammad, to forget it; namely, we will remove it from your heart”.

Thankyou, Hawk.

This abrogation, does it only apply to a law, or does it apply to a truth or a principle behind the law? I mean, it makes sense to me that a changing society could call for a different set of specific laws to some extent. But legal principles, would they remain the same? The nature of men and woman, would it remain the same?

 

[hawk]

Pug:

Thankyou, Hawk.

This abrogation, does it only apply to a law, or does it apply to a truth or a principle behind the law? I mean, it makes sense to me that a changing society could call for a different set of specific laws to some extent. But legal principles, would they remain the same? The nature of men and woman, would it remain the same?

Abrogation applies to ayat!

Laws depend on the ayat, as does truth and principle.

Thus a changing ayah, will change the law.
Surah 2:219:

They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: “In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.” They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: “What is beyond your needs.” Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider-

Surah 5:93:

O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (Dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination, - of Satan’s handiwork: Eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.

The second verse of 5:93 is a later revelation than the earlier verse of 2:219

Muslims believe that God was leading them away from vices, till they are banned.

So obviously the latter ayah abrogates the previous ayah.

This is the same as the case of the revelation regarding the pagans and people of the book in Sura 9

No matter what any muslim tells you, there are a number of scholars who opine that this verse abrogates the prior verses, since with the complete revelation of the Quran, no religion (deen) is acceptable to Allah, except Islam.

Hence all non-muslims are to be treated as per sura 9.

Muslims can freely make war on non-muslims, so long as it is a Jihad, or Holy War.

The consensus of all major scholars is needed for a Jihad to be declared, thereafter the rules of war as per Sura 9 take precendence over all other rules.

 

[Pug]

hawk:

Laws depend on the ayat, as does truth and principle.

Thus a changing ayah, will change the law.

Thus you are saying that if a verse or verses (an ayat or several ayah) of the Koran was abrogated, then truth itself was changed. Have they no concept of unchanging truth in Islam? Allah did not change over the period of Muhammad geting the revelation, I presume, so why would truth?

 

[hawk]

Pug:

Thus you are saying that if a verse or verses (an ayat or several ayah) of the Koran was abrogated, then truth itself was changed. Have they no concept of unchanging truth in Islam? Allah did not change over the period of Muhammad geting the revelation, I presume, so why would truth?

Allah does not change, they believe that Society has changed.

Its interesting, this in intself is an indication that the Quran does not contain eternal truth.

Its teachings are bound by the vagaries of time and society.

 

[Faith101]

Who revealed Quran? Satan revealed Quran to Mohammed.

Brother in humanity Selvaraj

why on earth would satan inspire Mohamed to tell people …

O mankind! Eat of that which is lawful and good on the earth, and follow not the footsteps of Shaitan (Satan). Verily, he is to you an open enemy. (Chapter #2, Verse #168)

O ye who believe! follow not Satan’s footsteps: if any will follow the footsteps of Satan, he will (but) command what is shameful and wrong: and were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, not one of you would ever have been pure: but Allah doth purify whom He pleases: and Allah is One Who hears and knows (all things). (Quran 24:21)

and sooooo many more. Where do you people get these crazy accusations. It is YOUR faith that has given Satan power…power to cause death, power to tempt “your god” Jesus Christ peace be upon him. Islam gives satan NO POWER…only the ability to misguide…but whether we listen or not is up to us.

please stop saying you believe that satan inspiried Mohamed…these accusations have been made before you by pagans who worshipped idols.

Or do they say, “He is possessed”? Nay, he has brought them the Truth, but most of them hate the Truth (Quran 23:70)

Do you forget what the Children of Israel called Jesus Christ peace be upon him? Exactly what you are saying about Mohamed peace be upon him.

**]Similarly, no apostle came to the Peoples before them, but they said (of him) in like manner, “A sorcerer, or one possessed”! ** (Chapter #51, Verse #52)

It also causes any Muslim who knows enough about the Quran to really discredit everything else you say.

 

[selvaraj]

Hello Faith,
You Muslims believe, Torah and Injeel are also the word of God according to Quran. The same Bible says in Luke 16:16 John the Baptist was the last prophet. Remember Mohammed was born 600 years after John the Baptist, means Mohammed was a false prophet. Also 2 Corinthians 11:14 says Satan can disguise himself to look like an angel of light. Means Satan revealed a book(Quran) to false prophet.

In Christ,
selvaraj

 

[hlgomez]

Hello Faith,
You Muslims believe, Torah and Injeel are also the word of God according to Quran. The same Bible says in Luke 16:16 John the Baptist was the last prophet. Remember Mohammed was born 600 years after John the Baptist, means Mohammed was a false prophet. Also 2 Corinthians 11:14 says Satan can disguise himself to look like an angel of light. Means Satan revealed a book(Quran) to false prophet.

In Christ,
selvaraj

In other words, he will mingle truths and lies together to deceive people. And that is what he’s done with Muhammad to produce the Quran.

For Hawk, Allah cannot be the author of the Quran. It’s a book that came out from Satan’s greatest tactic to descredit the work of Jesus Christ.

Pio

 

[hlgomez]

Regarding the Quran which existed in the 600 AD twisting the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we say;

**Galatians 1:6-8 **
But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! (emphasis added)

***As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed! ***

Pio

 

[Eetaq]

hlgomez:

In other words, he will mingle truths and lies together to deceive people. And that is what he’s done with Muhammad to produce the Quran.

For Hawk, Allah cannot be the author of the Quran. It’s a book that came out from Satan’s greatest tactic to descredit the work of Jesus Christ.

Pio

So Satan’s greatest tactic istelling us to encourage good and discourage bad deeds? and to pay charity, to feed the poor, to house the orphans, to worship the one God, to associate no partners with him, to be patient, to control our temper, and other various noble deeds?

What a nice guy, him and God should make up, since they both encourage the same things…

 

[Eetaq]

Regarding the Quran which existed in the 600 AD twisting the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we say;

**Galatians 1:6-8 **
But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! (emphasis added)

***As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed! ***

Pio

Well, I’m still here, living well, so when will I get accursed?

I’m waiting…

 

[Jerusha]

I think we need to lay off on attacking Muslims. They have too many concerns with stopping terrorism to listen to our trying to convert them. And if getting LDS to shape up improves American relations with the Islamic world, then that is what we need to focus on. As for potential converts there—

 

[hlgomez]

Well, I’m still here, living well, so when will I get accursed?

I’m waiting…

You don’t know what you are talking about at this time, Eetaq. Being accursed is being in a place called hell. You wait for it at the glorious coming of the Lord Jesus. You will believe it and will not even want it when you get there.

But still, I’m praying for your soul to be saved. God loves you so don’t mock him and his Apostles.

Pio

 

[Shenango]

Jerusha:

And if getting LDS to shape up improves American relations with the Islamic world

What do you mean by getting LDS to “shape up”, and how would this improve U.S. relations with the Muslim world?

 

[UnworthySoul]

Jerusha:

They have too many concerns with stopping terrorism…

When exactly is that going to happen? Not being rude. It’s a serious question. Where are the official fatwa’s against this? Where are the purges in Madrasa’s that teach hate? I’d love to see Muslims take a stand against those they claim pervert their religion, but as yet all I have seen are a few token arrests and a handful of statements.

 

[hlgomez]

So Satan’s greatest tactic istelling us to encourage good and discourage bad deeds? and to pay charity, to feed the poor, to house the orphans, to worship the one God, to associate no partners with him, to be patient, to control our temper, and other various noble deeds?

What a nice guy, him and God should make up, since they both encourage the same things…

Eetaq,

You’re too young to twist my responses. If you can’t understand what I am saying, don’t try to twist it. I never hinted of saying the above words that you said.

Pio

 

[Mimi]

One of my first introductions to what Muslims believe was an interview with Daniel Ali on EWTN TV, the Journey Home. Here is a link:
ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?pgnu=4&SeriesID=-6892289
Look for show #101 on 5/5/03
Also on the show was Fr. Mitch Pacwa. He speaks Arabic and has been to the Middle East many times.
You can listen to the whole show via computer and even video seems to be available now.

My question:
One inconsistency in the Quran cited by Ali was that after Mohammed was given some of the Quran, he had doubts. He was told (by an angel?) he should check with the People of the Book. He did not do so.
Ali says that Muslims say THEY are the People of the Book, but it is JEWS who are the People of the Book.
He cites Chapter 10 of the Quran, but I have not been able to find this verse. I admittedly know next to nothing about the Quran.

So, please tell me; WHO are the People of the Book?

Thanks and peace to all,
Mimi

 

[Eetaq]

hlgomez:

You don’t know what you are talking about at this time, Eetaq. Being accursed is being in a place called hell. You wait for it at the glorious coming of the Lord Jesus. You will believe it and will not even want it when you get there.

But still, I’m praying for your soul to be saved. God loves you so don’t mock him and his Apostles.

Pio

Ahh, I see. TY for the corrections.

 

[Eetaq]

UnworthySoul:

When exactly is that going to happen? Not being rude. It’s a serious question. Where are the official fatwa’s against this? Where are the purges in Madrasa’s that teach hate? I’d love to see Muslims take a stand against those they claim pervert their religion, but as yet all I have seen are a few token arrests and a handful of statements.

Theres hundreds of fatwas against terrorism, but until Osama gives one no one who follows him will listen. As for the madrasas that teach hate, thats up to the governments, and as of now all governments of islamic countries are tyrant.

Mimi:

My question:
One inconsistency in the Quran cited by Ali was that after Mohammed was given some of the Quran, he had doubts. He was told (by an angel?) he should check with the People of the Book. He did not do so.
Ali says that Muslims say THEY are the People of the Book, but it is JEWS who are the People of the Book.
He cites Chapter 10 of the Quran, but I have not been able to find this verse. I admittedly know next to nothing about the Quran.

People of the book are people who believe in one/many of the prophets God sent who also sent a book with them, but deny mohanmmed. Those are currently Jews (who believe in Moses’ Torah) and Christians (Who believe in Jesus’ Bible). Unless people still follow Abraham’s book and deny all others i dont think theres any other religions.

 

[Shenango]

Mimi:

So, please tell me; WHO are the People of the Book?

To keep things simple, the “People of the Book” are Christians and Jews.

 

[Fox]

The Quran was recited to Muhammed by Gabriel, an angel, less perfect than God, so by default flawed, so I believe it can’t be divinely inspired.