Qustion about salvation

[jacobtaylor]

I have a catholic friend that has been speaking to me over the internet. My question is why become catholic if Im already saved as you can see in the below conversation I already have salvation with out being a member. I’m confused can someone please clear up my confusion " then why join the catholic church"?

It says although Orthodox churches are true churches, they are defective because they do not recognize the primacy of the Pope.

“It follows that these separated churches and communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation,” it said.

**As you can see, my brother, even the Pope believes that those separated Churches and communities are not deprived of the mystery of salvation.

Just because we are the true Church does not mean that you are not saved. Saying that we are the true Church and saying that the others are not saved are two different things.
**
Your comment about the Pope saying that we are the true Church and that the others are imperfect says just that. You are an imperfect church. In fact, the Pope does not even recognize your church as a “church” but as a community. Now, where in that document does it say that non-Catholics have no salvation?

 

[MarcoPolo]

My question is why become catholic if Im already saved as you can see in the below conversation I already have salvation with out being a member.

Catholic teaching is that it is possible for persons outside formal membership in the Catholic Church. Such a person could be saved due to ignorance of the fact that God has called all souls to into the one Catholic Church. The Church does not say that those outside formal membership in the Church are saved. Rather the Church teaches that in ways known only to God, there is the possibility that God can incorporate someone into the one Church by informal extraordinary means.

Also, Catechism #846 states: Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

 

[bnbkaine]

The Catholic Church does not believe that only those that are Catholic are going to be saved. However, we do feel that the Church guides us to the easiest means to determine how we are doing on the road to salvation. How do you know if God has forgiven you of your sins? I know that He has forgiven mine because He has priests to say the words to me that tell me. Does God want us to respect life from conception to natural death? Yes, and any who feels that that is not true is deceiving themselves. What Church has protected the sanctity of life for almost 2000 years? There are plenty of examples that point to the Church as the litmus test for our salvation.

Then why join the Catholic Church? Because if you can be obedient to the Catholic Church then you can be assured of Heaven. Do you have to call yourself a Catholic and still live a Catholic life? No. Just as their are people who call themselves Catholic and are not, there can be people who say they are something else, but really live more by the guidelines of the Church than others.

Also, the Catholic Church offers sacraments that give us grace, which enables us to more easily live a life that God wants us to live. There is only one place to receive the sacraments from an authoritative source.

And finally, I like being right. So that is why I’m Catholic.

 

[david_friol_1]

I have a catholic friend that has been speaking to me over the internet. My question is why become catholic if Im already saved as you can see in the below conversation I already have salvation with out being a member. I’m confused can someone please clear up my confusion " then why join the catholic church"?

Hello jacobtaylor

This topic usually begins with a simple question like the one you asked but will probably end up with a flurry of bible verses being thrown around and pulled in every direction. There are so many misunderstandings between Protestants and Catholics on this issue. Both use terms in different ways sometimes so we all end up talking past each other without trying to really understand one another.

Having said that I would start by asking what you mean when you say that you are already saved. Do you mean by that that you are without a doubt, no matter what sins you commit in the future, no matter whether you Love God and your neighbor or whether you live only for your self and get what you can out of this world regardless of who you have to step on to get it, that you can not fall away even if you wanted to, as if to say that you are going to spend eternity with God in heaven could be on the level of “divine revelation”. Catholics normally think along those lines when a Protestant says that because the word saved has many usages in todays society. Catholics of today use that word usually in regards to those who are in heaven right now. So, do you see the potential confusion that comes up with that simple five letter word(saved)?

To at least try to answer your question about why you should become Catholic I would simply say “Because it is true!” or “Because Christ really did establish her!” or “Because this world brings us constant temptation and our greatest weapons for spiritual warfare are the very Sacraments which he gave us that allow us to literally “put on Christ” and fight in the battle armed and ready” or “Because you would have more graces flowing to you through the Sacraments that you do not have as a Protestant” or “Because Christ calls you home to her”

God bless you and your family!

 

[jacobtaylor]

Thank you both It was those CCC 846 passages both before and after that I was reading, as well as looking at statements from the New Pope that says to me, salvation is found in the Catholic Church simply because the Catholic church is said to be the body of Christ.

I have looked around and seen that as in most churches there is always some disagreement but the main consensus from Catholic members appears to be membership is the same as being in the body of Christ. So it would stand that non membership is being outside the body of Christ.

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

I understand 847 to mean if you don’t know the CC is the body of Christ as said. through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:it is impossible to please him, “God” outside of the Church

**Am I understand this correctly?

I don’t simply want to take his word not that he would lie but I want to be sure of what he tells me is in agreement with the Pope. Thanks again for your quick response.**

 

[Myqyl]

Hi Jacob,

It is most certainly Catholic teaching that your Church might (I don’t know your circumstance) provide a path to salvation. However, you are (according to Church teaching) missing the fullness of God’s plan for you… We want you to have the full Truth… The full plan… If you had a friend that had only ever listened to music on an AM radio with a 2 inch speaker, wouldn’t you want to share with them the joys of a huge state of the art sound system? Sure they can learn to dance to AM, but…

Come on in and have listen! See what the fuss is about!

God bless!

 

[jacobtaylor]

Hello jacobtaylor

This topic usually begins with a simple question like the one you asked but will probably end up with a flurry of bible verses being thrown around and pulled in every direction. There are so many misunderstandings between Protestants and Catholics on this issue. Both use terms in different ways sometimes so we all end up talking past each other without trying to really understand one another.

Having said that I would start by asking what you mean when you say that you are already saved. Do you mean by that that you are without a doubt, no matter what sins you commit in the future, no matter whether you Love God and your neighbor or whether you live only for your self and get what you can out of this world regardless of who you have to step on to get it, that you can not fall away even if you wanted to, as if to say that you are going to spend eternity with God in heaven could be on the level of “divine revelation”. Catholics normally think along those lines when a Protestant says that because the word saved has many usages in todays society. Catholics of today use that word usually in regards to those who are in heaven right now. So, do you see the potential confusion that comes up with that simple five letter word(saved)?

To at least try to answer your question about why you should become Catholic I would simply say “Because it is true!” or “Because Christ really did establish her!” or “Because this world brings us constant temptation and our greatest weapons for spiritual warfare are the very Sacraments which he gave us that allow us to literally “put on Christ” and fight in the battle armed and ready” or “Because you would have more graces flowing to you through the Sacraments that you do not have as a Protestant” or “Because Christ calls you home to her”

God bless you and your family!

I believe in Jesus, I understand and am both compelled and strengthen in my heart to lay myself or my own good to the side to help others. I read the bible to find a greater understanding of Jesus and his desire for those that follow him. I really don’t have sacraments I was baptized years ago in a protestant church, I have taken communion but not a catholic one. I have never been to a Catholic church. If you have more questions just ask but that’s my faith in a nut shell. I do believe that Jesus holy Spirit is in me.

 

[Brywan]

If Jesus Christ wanted to give you a gift wouldn’t you want to receive it?

 

[jacobtaylor]

sorry I tough I was replying to Bryon he seems to be gone now?

 

[Pax]

jacobtaylor in Christ,

As a non-Catholic Christian you might subscribe to the teaching of “Once Saved Always Saved.” This is, from the Catholic perspective, a serious heresy. If the Catholic perspective on this is correct, then it becomes easy to see, in this instance, why one should become Catholic. This same kind of logic would apply to anything else that is falsely believed or omitted from the deposit of faith.

Jesus says the following in John 8:31-32

“If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

Jesus also says in John 14:6

“I am the way, and the truth, and the life…”

The truth is essential. The aforementioned verses are only a couple of examples that can be cited concerning the importance of truth. Scripture speaks of the truth over and over again throughout the NT.

Your exploration and search for truth is evidenced by coming to this Forum, and that is a good thing. Your apparent search for truth, if done with a sincere heart and open mind, is pleasing to the Lord, and he will see you through that quest.

God bless.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I don’t simply want to take his word not that he would lie but I want to be sure of what he tells me is in agreement with the Pope. Thanks again for your quick response.

I don’t see anything in your friend’s writing that contradicts the Catechism. In saying other faith communities are “not deprived the mystery of salvation” I don’t think he is saying that those other faiths are true paths to Christ, but rather that God’s grace still appears to people in other faith communities that prompts them into the true Church. According to Catholic teaching, it remains true that there is no salvation outside the Church. Invincible ignorance merely says that it is possible for someone to be united to the true Church in an informal, exceptional way. Such a person would still be saved through the one Church even if they didn’t realize it. Such a person would not be saved through their alternate faith.

 

[jacobtaylor]

OK what I understand so far is to be in the fullness of Christ is not being outside CC

Pax; that is falsely believed or omitted from the deposit of faith.

Myqyl; (according to Church teaching) missing the fullness of God’s plan for you… We want you to have the full Truth… The full plan…

MarcoPolo;The Church does not say that those outside formal membership in the Church are saved.

So the intent of Jesus is to become Catholic to receive the fullness of Christ. Thanks thats not exactly what my friend was saying,

He said;
Just because we are the true Church does not mean that you are not saved. Saying that we are the true Church and saying that the others are not saved are two different things.Your comment about the Pope saying that we are the true Church and that the others are imperfect says just that. You are an imperfect church. In fact, the Pope does not even recognize your church as a “church” but as a community. **Now, where in that document does it say that non-Catholics have no salvation? **

But thats not exactly what you all believe. No one here has indicated non Catholics can be saved.

 

[jacobtaylor]

I don’t see anything in your friend’s writing that contradicts the Catechism. In saying other faith communities are “not deprived the mystery of salvation” I don’t think he is saying that those other faiths are true paths to Christ, but rather that God’s grace still appears to people in other faith communities that prompts them into the true Church. According to Catholic teaching, it remains true that there is no salvation outside the Church. Invincible ignorance merely says that it is possible for someone to be united to the true Church in an informal, exceptional way. Such a person would still be saved through the one Church even if they didn’t realize it. Such a person would not be saved through their alternate faith.

very good explanation

 

[Pax]

jacobtaylor in Christ,

I would like to qualify my statements by saying that “yes, it is possible to be saved without being Catholic.” Only God can judge the hearts of men. Moreover, the Lord doesn’t wait for an atheist to become a believer. The Lord goes to the atheist and meets him where he is. God gives grace to the atheist so he, the atheist, can believe. Likewise, God meets each of us wherever we are in life and belief.

The path to salvation is, however, narrow and the path to perdition is wide and many find it per the words of our Savior. Truth really does matter when it comes to salvation. If truth did not matter, then all would be saved regardless of their belief or non-belief.

God bless.

 

[david_friol_1]

OK what I understand so far is to be in the fullness of Christ is not being outside CC

So the intent of Jesus is to become Catholic to receive the fullness of Christ. Thanks thats not exactly what my friend was saying,

He said;
Just because we are the true Church does not mean that you are not saved. Saying that we are the true Church and saying that the others are not saved are two different things.Your comment about the Pope saying that we are the true Church and that the others are imperfect says just that. You are an imperfect church. In fact, the Pope does not even recognize your church as a “church” but as a community. **Now, where in that document does it say that non-Catholics have no salvation? **

But thats not exactly what you all believe. No one here has indicated non Catholics can be saved.

Okay it is not always that simple. Yes non-Catholics can be saved(get to heaven). However, God judges the heart and if a non-Catholic realises that the Catholic Church is the one true Church created by Christ and ignores that interior knowledge and continues to live as a separated brother or sister they run the risk (a very serious risk) of not being saved(getting to heaven).

 

[jacobtaylor]

jacobtaylor in Christ,

I would like to qualify my statements by saying that “yes, it is possible to be saved without being Catholic.” Only God can judge the hearts of men. Moreover, the Lord doesn’t wait for an atheist to become a believer. The Lord goes to the atheist and meets him where he is. God gives grace to the atheist so he, the atheist, can believe. Likewise, God meets each of us wherever we are in life and belief.

The path to salvation is, however, narrow and the path to perdition is wide and many find it per the words of our Savior. Truth really does matter when it comes to salvation. If truth did not matter, then all would be saved regardless of their belief or non-belief.

God bless.

jacobtaylor in Christ,

This same kind of logic would apply to anything else that is falsely believed or omitted from the deposit of faith.
God bless.

Your starting to talk like my Catholic friend, first it sounds like you can’t be saved outside the Catholic faith, then it sounds like you can, then you say its up to Jesus. Thats a bit foggy what I am looking for is salvation possible outside of being the Catholic faith? I found this thread,
No Salvation outside the Catholic Church forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=528668
For the most part it looks like most agree, some don’t So I found this. I guess Im looking for an answer from the highest level of the Church.

cbc.ca/news/world/story/2007/07/10/vatican-church.html

Catholic Church only true church, Vatican says
Last Updated: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 | 10:27 AM ET
CBC News
The Vatican issued a document Tuesday restating its belief that the Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ.

The 16-page document was prepared by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, a doctrinal watchdog that Pope Benedict used to head.

Pope Benedict XVI was elected Pope in April 2005.Pope Benedict XVI was elected Pope in April 2005.
(Plinio Lepri/Associated Press)

Formulated as five questions and answers, the document is titled “Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church.”

It says although Orthodox churches are true churches, they are defective because they do not recognize the primacy of the Pope.

“It follows that these separated churches and communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation,” it said.

**The document adds that Protestant denominations — called Christian Communities born out of the Reformation — are not true churches, but ecclesial communities.

“These ecclesial communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood … cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called ‘churches’ in the proper sense,” it said.**

The document is similar to one written in 2000 by the Pope — who was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger at the time — that sparked an angry reaction from Protestant groups.

“I suspect there will be some reactions that are rather passionate,” said Raphaela Schmid, director of the Becket Institute, a group that advocates religious freedom. “I hope they will not be angry because we all try to understand about each other.”

The document is issued by Benedict’s successor in doctrinal matters, Cardinal William Levada, and endorsed by the Pope, said Reuters.

The decree comes days after liberal Catholic and Jewish groups spoke out against the Pope’s move to authorize the wider use of a traditional Latin mass.

The Tridentine mass includes a prayer for the conversion of Jews. Its use was restricted following the Second Vatican Council from 1962 to 1965.

Pope Benedict issued a decree last week authorizing its broader use in an effort to reconcile with followers of an ultratraditional excommunicated bishop.

The Jewish Anti-Defamation League in New York called it a “body blow to Catholic-Jewish relations.”

 

[Myqyl]

But thats not exactly what you all believe. No one here has indicated non Catholics can be saved.

Actually if you re-read what I wrote, that’s exactly what I said, because that is what the Church says. Non Catholic Christians can indeed be saved. However they miss out on the Fullness that God intended us all to have, Catholic and non-Catholic alike.

I am not a Catholic because I want to be saved and go to heaven. I’m not looking for what I can get out of the deal. I am a Catholic for one reason only… Because I believe that is most pleasing to God. My incentive is to please the Almighty, not to get something from Him.

Don’t seek Salvation… Seek to please our Lord. Salvation is just a by-product.

Hope that makes sense.

God bless!

 

[TimothyH]

The bottom line Jacob is that the Chatholic Church is the Church which was established by Jesus Christ. All other Churches were founded by ordinary men who broke away from the Church established by Jesus Christ. Why would you not want to be in the Catholic Church?

The Apostles, and their successors the bishops, were given authority to interpret scripture and to teach on matters of faith and morals based on that intepretation. The intepreation is guaranteed by Christ, throug the granting of a special gift of the Holy Spirit, to be free from error. This is why the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of truth and all other Churches posess only partial truth - and necissarily some error. Why would you not want to be in the Catholic Church?

Most importantly, the Eucharist is only found in the Catholic Church. The sacrament of Holy Communion, established by Christ at the last supper, is where the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ is made present. We call this The Eucharist and when we receive it, we are incorporated into Christ’s body - not just spiritally or sumbolically - but actually incorporated into the Body of Christ in a very real way. This gives us incredible strength to overcome sin. As an actual part of Christ’s Body, we have an incredible power - Christ’s power - to rebuke the devil and be kept safe from evil. The Eucharistis found only in the Catholic Church.

Established by Christ. Posessing the fullness of truth. The only place where you can receive the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ in the Holy Eucharist. Why would you not want to be a member of the Catholic Church? You can be a member of any Church you want but if I was a betting man, I’d say my best odds for salvation were in the Catholic Church.

-Tim-

 

[Pax]

jacobtaylor in Christ,

I would suggest the following link:

philvaz.com/apologetics/debate9.htm

It may help resolve this issue for you.

God bless.

 

[fhansen]

I have a catholic friend that has been speaking to me over the internet. My question is why become catholic if Im already saved as you can see in the below conversation I already have salvation with out being a member. I’m confused can someone please clear up my confusion " then why join the catholic church"?

It’s all about finding the path that God has provided for mans’ salvation. In order to know with certainty the gospel as He intends it, and to be aided in our attempts to live it out, God established a Church. All other paths deviate in one way or the other, even if He may work through them as He wills.