Rabbinic tradition vs apostolic tradition - dialogue with messianic friend

[SyroMalankara]

Yeah, that is literally exactly his argument: If you take the eucharist literally, why not, “If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out?”

I said, from a sola scriptura perspective, you’d have a valid point; however, we know that based on 1500 years of TRADITION, how the eucharist was understood from the beginning, and how it is to be interpreted, and it’s not the same context as, “Pluck it out.” So we know for certain *how the eucharist is to be interpreted. That’s the difference: tradition.

You ever heard of Michael Heiser, the ANE language/Bible scholar and editor of Logos Bible Software? My friend is always quoting him as “he knows the truth of the early Church and its appropriate Hebrew context.” To be honest, I can’t find Heiser’s view of the Church, but I remember him being quoted as saying something to the effect of: the Bible can only be rightly understood in its Ancient Near Eastern context, not Catholic tradition, not Protestant, etc."

I would respond by saying, knowing even 10 Semitic languages and the immediate cultural context will only take you so far, when you have to contend with the fact that CHRIST PROMISED One visible, infallible Church; and the Scripture can only truly be understood within the context of the life of that church. And because it is Christ’s Church, and God is the author of history, the readings will include the ANE/Semitic context by default, since God is the one who birthed the Church in that region.

You don’t have to do this either-or stuff; it’s an inclusive, organic, whole - a unity; truly…catholic.

You ever heard Mike Heiser speak on the early church?

That’s all fine and dandy about the earliest Christians being Semitic, however, all of the Semitic Churches are either Catholic, Orthodox or Assyrian - all believe the same thing about Eucharist, Priesthood, Sacraments, St. Mary (more or less), Saints, praying for the dead, etc… not at all like protestants.

 

[eightydeuce82]

That’s all fine and dandy about the earliest Christians being Semitic, however, all of the Semitic Churches are either Catholic, Orthodox or Assyrian - all believe the same thing about Eucharist, Priesthood, Sacraments, St. Mary (more or less), Saints, praying for the dead, etc… not at all like protestants.

Yea I always get a kick out of it all! All of the ancient Churches INCLUDING the ones that are not Roman like the Coptic’s and the like that literally go back 1900 years some in physical churches that date back that long in Iraq are catholic in theology. The are all not swayed by Rome and this is completely ignored by most Protestant scholars.

 

[DustinQuick]

Ericc, SyroMalankara, and EightyDeuce82:

Great points! Way to keep things in perspective. Sometimes, when people try to trip you up over finer details, the best way to respond is to show larger context and perspective. In the examples you mentioned, the light of truth comes in and the boogeyman vanishes back into the shadows.

 

[eightydeuce82]

Ericc, SyroMalankara, and EightyDeuce82:

Great points! Way to keep things in perspective. Sometimes, when people try to trip you up over finer details, the best way to respond is to show larger context and perspective. In the examples you mentioned, the light of truth comes in and the boogeyman vanishes back into the shadows.

I struggle to stay charitable that’s my issue. Once one understands the things we are discussing the more the protestant objections and theology seems like a joke (to me). I don’t think I’m equipped to be able to reason with people who hold those beliefs for long. I’ve heard all of the tired old objections, issues and problems they have. Its been a long time since I heard anything new its like a broken record. When folks choose to ignore what actually happened in history and seem to think that Christian history started when Christ rose lasted about one generation and then completely vanished off the planet only to finally be discovered by some guy in Germany 1500 years later…its just mind boggling how anyone could fall for this stuff. I realize that the majority of protestants have no idea why they are protestant anymore and the anti-Catholic bigotry almost ALL of them profess in one way or another is just built into their respective faiths and most remain ignorant of all these things. So in that sense its hopeful. I hope honestly in a few generations it will cease. 500 years has shown a pretty dramatic life span the protestant movement peaked early and then declined rapidly. I realize all churches are on the decline but main line Protestantism is really suffering. Evangelicals are the in my opinion last stand as more and more main liners devolve into this. You can only church shop and follow your own personal preferences for so long. eventually it will devolve into just me and Jesus which honestly isn’t a bad thing but its post Christian. Its simply not how the Christians operated for ALL of Christian history. So to me its like a circle or a rollercoaster. The biggest climb and drop is usually at the beginning but eventually it returns to the start. As people become smarter with more access to information the more history and the truth will expose itself leaving many of the protestant objections in the dust since they just are not sustainable.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I struggle to stay charitable that’s my issue. Once one understands the things we are discussing the more the protestant objections and theology seems like a joke (to me). I don’t think I’m equipped to be able to reason with people who hold those beliefs for long. I’ve heard all of the tired old objections, issues and problems they have. Its been a long time since I heard anything new its like a broken record. When folks choose to ignore what actually happened in history and seem to think that Christian history started when Christ rose lasted about one generation and then completely vanished off the planet only to finally be discovered by some guy in Germany 1500 years later…its just mind boggling how anyone could fall for this stuff. I realize that the majority of protestants have no idea why they are protestant anymore and the anti-Catholic bigotry almost ALL of them profess in one way or another is just built into their respective faiths and most remain ignorant of all these things. So in that sense its hopeful. I hope honestly in a few generations it will cease. 500 years has shown a pretty dramatic life span the protestant movement peaked early and then declined rapidly. I realize all churches are on the decline but main line Protestantism is really suffering. Evangelicals are the in my opinion last stand as more and more main liners devolve into this. You can only church shop and follow your own personal preferences for so long. eventually it will devolve into just me and Jesus which honestly isn’t a bad thing but its post Christian. Its simply not how the Christians operated for ALL of Christian history. So to me its like a circle or a rollercoaster. The biggest climb and drop is usually at the beginning but eventually it returns to the start. As people become smarter with more access to information the more history and the truth will expose itself leaving many of the protestant objections in the dust since they just are not sustainable.

When did the protestant movement peak in your opinion and when did the decline begin? So many churches have caved in to secular demand that I think many people gave up on their churches. I think people want clear moral teaching and many churches caved to keep their doors open.

 

[DustinQuick]

What floors me is how scholars who know the history of the church can stay Protestant, and insist that theology is on their side.

I mean, I can understand remaining Protestant for personal reasons; but to actually try and make the historical record fit that perspective - as a historian - is absurd.

I heard John Piper say he hates sacramental theology so much, that he wouldn’t be allowed to use the words to describe his hatred of it in a church setting.

And I know that’s an extreme position; it doesn’t blanket all Protestants, but give me a break.

 

[DustinQuick]

To be fair, I think some Protestants AND Catholics share the same error when trying to have a dialogue:

Some Protestants think the official catholic position is that we claim the Church looked and functioned in the ante-nicene period exactly as it does today; then, they show the catholic - who happens to believe in such anachronism - evidence of a “less-developed” early church, and the catholic feels defeated and ashamed he could have been so blind to be catholic, and the Protestant feels justified.

But see, the beauty of the Catholic Church is that development of doctrine is built right into our very sources - this is what we claim for ourselves. So, when that is understood at the outset, during a dialogue, the Protestant can’t use the “less-developed” church as a stick to beat the catholic; and the catholic doesn’t have to shrink back when presented with that reality. In fact, they could even celebrate it.

Once this strawman is out of the way, real progress can be made in the way of dialogue.

It’s kind of funny, just imagine the reaction you’d get when someone says to you, “the early church didn’t look exactly like your Catholic Church today.” (Thinking they got you cornered) And you respond…

“Amen. Praise God.”

 

[eightydeuce82]

When did the protestant movement peak in your opinion and when did the decline begin? So many churches have caved in to secular demand that I think many people gave up on their churches. I think people want clear moral teaching and many churches caved to keep their doors open.

You know honestly I think it was pretty recent! The evangelical movement isn’t new but in its current form it is very new. In church life terms 400 years is a pretty short timeframe. Droves of mainline protestants are leaving the old staples for these small localized evangelical (non-denominational) churches. The whole non denominational denomination thing is pretty recent too. Its really interesting that right around the council for us and around the same time for the protestants the decline really began (at least became visible).

At least in my own circles church shopped is the new Black. I’m not sure what it is really? I think people believe that they are returning to some early Christian way by becoming non denominational or evangelical…a time when there wasn’t denominations. Maybe looking for a more pure faith or something like that…unfortunately they don’t seem to get it. There was only the Catholic Church in the early life of Christianity and then Orthodoxy reared up. If I could predict the next step (which is already happening) you will start to see protestants emulating Jews and Jewish type worship. This is already happening as soon as you see Yeshua used you found one and they are growing. I think this is basically it for protestants. I don’t believe they will completely go away there will always be hold out. I mean we still have Gnostics and many of the other heretical movements almost 1900 years later…but it seems to me to be devolving.

the funny part is they have skipped over the catholic aspect of the return and this is because of the bias built into every protestant weather they realize it or not its there. Anything but catholic.

 

[eightydeuce82]

To be fair, I think some Protestants AND Catholics share the same error when trying to have a dialogue:

Some Protestants think the official catholic position is that we claim the Church looked and functioned in the ante-nicene period exactly as it does today; then, they show the catholic - who happens to believe in such anachronism - evidence of a “less-developed” early church, and the catholic feels defeated and ashamed he could have been so blind to be catholic, and the Protestant feels justified.

But see, the beauty of the Catholic Church is that development of doctrine is built right into our very sources - this is what we claim for ourselves. So, when that is understood at the outset, during a dialogue, the Protestant can’t use the “less-developed” church as a stick to beat the catholic; and the catholic doesn’t have to shrink back when presented with that reality. In fact, they could even celebrate it.

Once this strawman is out of the way, real progress can be made in the way of dialogue.

It’s kind of funny, just imagine the reaction you’d get when someone says to you, “the early church didn’t look exactly like your Catholic Church today.” (Thinking they got you cornered) And you respond…

“Amen. Praise God.”

Of course id say physically no it doesn’t but neither does yours or any other denomination out there. Not a single one. What matters is what we believe and that has stayed the same but only with us.

 

[DustinQuick]

Eightydeuce: are you a convert, revert, or cradle-Catholic?

 

[eightydeuce82]

Eightydeuce: are you a convert, revert, or cradle-Catholic?

I’m a cradle Catholic, I was lost for awhile but I’m back with a vengeance.

I’ve seen both sides of the fence My father is Catholic and raised me Catholic my mom was a Baptist/Methodist. So half the family are protestant. Lucky mom converted to Catholic this last Easter, was Baptized, confirmed, and received her first Eucharist that day!

To think my own mother and much of my family were never Baptized! Scary Stuff.

I’ve sat and watched my father not receive the Eucharist for a very long time and finally this Easter after all the red tape he received again. I’ve never met someone with such a devotion to the Eucharist as my dad. So many blessings this year.

I am discerning a vocation to the Diaconate currently but I have a lot to work on before I get to that phase. We will see. I think I’m way to conservative for anyone to ordain me

 

[DustinQuick]

Praise God, that’s so awesome. I’ll be praying for your vocation.

It’s hard being catholic. Every day there’s another headline; what’s the latest? Closed door meeting to change church teaching on the eve of the synod, I think.

These people just don’t get it. Their fighting Christ. God can’t fail to keep his promise.

Sometimes, it helps me to think, what if we lived during Arianism’s peak? When like 60 percent of the Bishops were heretics? The next time I get discouraged and think it’s never been this bad, I just remember the Arian days, and think, the faithful probably thought that back then, too.

And orthodoxy - Christ - prevailed.

The devils trying. But he won’t win. Nothing new under the Son.

 

[eightydeuce82]

Praise God, that’s so awesome. I’ll be praying for your vocation.

It’s hard being catholic. Every day there’s another headline; what’s the latest? Closed door meeting to change church teaching on the eve of the synod, I think.

These people just don’t get it. Their fighting Christ. God can’t fail to keep his promise.

Sometimes, it helps me to think, what if we lived during Arianism’s peak? When like 60 percent of the Bishops were heretics? The next time I get discouraged and think it’s never been this bad, I just remember the Arian days, and think, the faithful probably thought that back then, too.

And orthodoxy - Christ - prevailed.

The devils trying. But he won’t win. Nothing new under the Son.

He wont win and he knows it but that’s not going to stop him from pulling as many people as he can down with him…largely he’s succeeding. Especially today. I could care less about the headlines and as the anti catholic sentiment gets worse I get louder. the more Catholics dumb down the faith and lose their Catholic Identity and tradition I get LOUDER! What bugs me isn’t really protestants they have been deceived and many are ignorant now…what bothers me is Catholics and the state of things today. The statistics are bad for us. there is a Crisis that most either deny or will not acknowledge.

 

[DustinQuick]

He wont win and he knows it but that’s not going to stop him from pulling as many people as he can down with him…largely he’s succeeding. Especially today. I could care less about the headlines and as the anti catholic sentiment gets worse I get louder. the more Catholics dumb down the faith and lose their Catholic Identity and tradition I get LOUDER! What bugs me isn’t really protestants they have been deceived and many are ignorant now…what bothers me is Catholics and the state of things today. The statistics are bad for us. there is a Crisis that most either deny or will not acknowledge.

Yeah. We just can’t lose hope. What hurts the most is these Catholics who want to change church teaching, without realizing it, and trying to make Christ a liar. If ultimately, “the gates of hell prevail,” then Jesus is not who he claimed to be, this whole thing is false, and we can pack up and go home.

The stakes are higher than many realize.