Rad-Trads vs. Rad-Fundy's

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It’s this kind of talk that makes me recoil in horror, the polar opposite of a “Jack T. Chick”, if either is true about God, I’d just as assume go to Hell and curse Him endlessly! :mad:

“Besides, I am at liberty to respectfully, but profoundly, disagree with the Cardinal that Protestantism has made any worthwhile contribution to the spread of Christianity. Rather, Protestantism has hindered the spread of Christianity, and has, by its very inherent nature, dragged many souls into hell.”
 
Fragile said:
It’s this kind of talk that makes me recoil in horror, the polar opposite of a “Jack T. Chick”, if either is true about God, I’d just as assume go to Hell and curse Him endlessly! :mad:

“Besides, I am at liberty to respectfully, but profoundly, disagree with the Cardinal that Protestantism has made any worthwhile contribution to the spread of Christianity. Rather, Protestantism has hindered the spread of Christianity, and has, by its very inherent nature, dragged many souls into hell.”
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I’m confused, what are you talking about?
 
Fragile said:
It’s this kind of talk that makes me recoil in horror, the polar opposite of a “Jack T. Chick”, if either is true about God, I’d just as assume go to Hell and curse Him endlessly! :mad:

“Besides, I am at liberty to respectfully, but profoundly, disagree with the Cardinal that Protestantism has made any worthwhile contribution to the spread of Christianity. Rather, Protestantism has hindered the spread of Christianity, and has, by its very inherent nature, dragged many souls into hell.”
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Hi, this is very confusing - is it meant that the quote starting with “Besides and ending in hell” was from a Catholic and you are upset about that Catholic’s quote? If so, can you please provide the relevant source material so we can see who said what and what the context is so we can provide an answer.

God Bless you.
 
Shouldn’t really be anything confusing about it, the bottom part is a quote from a Catholic man who posts on another forum, commenting on our last pope’s position on Protestants when he was a Cardinal. Some Catholics rant on and on about “Anti-Catholicism”, but it goes both ways.
 
Fragile said:
Shouldn’t really be anything confusing about it, the bottom part is a quote from a Catholic man who posts on another forum, commenting on our last pope’s position on Protestants when he was a Cardinal. Some Catholics rant on and on about “Anti-Catholicism”, but it goes both ways.
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What we’re saying is that you have to give a source for the quote. Just saying that the Pope said it doesn’t mean he did. The poster could have been making it up, or he could have said it legitimately.

To a certain extend I agree with him. As a result of the reformation concept that a person could discern the truth of the Bible on their own, many people began to think that God’s will should suit their own, rather than the other way around as it should be. From this, it follows that many people reject the Truth because it doesn’t suit their opinions. Since a rejection of Truth is ultimately a rejection of God, it is logical to conclude that it has the capacity to place their souls in danger (since it is the sinner’s choice to reject God that causes them to chose Hell at death). I know of many people who refuse to believe because they don’t want to change or because what Catholicism teaches clashes with their personal opinion. It is not a large step to think that, on death, they will continue to reject God because he doesn’t fit their vision of him.

This is no different from the what the Jews did when they crucified Christ. They were expecting a war-leader, to conquer the unfaithful; instead they got a humble carpenter who preached peace and love.

So, since we can show a logical path from the Protestant reformation’s ideals to the potential for Hell, we can show that Protestantism is capable of endangering souls. Since there are so many protestant denominations, each with a varying level of rejection of the Truth; and since there are so many Protestants in the world who do reject God’s Truth, we can then conclude that there’s a high likelihood that Protestantism has caused people to fall to Hell.

I would like to note, however, that this is not an absolute, and we can always hope on the infinite mercy of God to offer them the chance for repentance at death so they could become one with the saints; which is the outcome I think every true Catholic hopes for them.
 
Ya know what, forget it, just get rid of this thread, I’m done w/Catholicism!
 
It’s hard to look at these things disinterestedly, because the truth matters so much, and religion goes to the core of what we are and live for. To complicate matters, one person’s “mere facts” is another person’s “hate speech.”
 
Fragile said:
Ya know what, forget it, just get rid of this thread, I’m done w/Catholicism!
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See, this is what I’m talking about. When what you hear doesn’t fit your opinions, you automatically reject it.

That’s not faith, that’s ignorance.

Perhaps you should learn why we believe that before you reject it outright.

This is not meant to uncharitable; all of us would gladly talk it through with you.
 
Really, it’s cool, it wasn’t just this, long time coming, I’m out. I’m still cool w/Catholics who wish to consider me “a brother”, but I just can’t “swallow the whole camel” as it were, and can no longer give my amen to things I don’t believe.
 
Fragile said:
Really, it’s cool, it wasn’t just this, long time coming, I’m out. I’m still cool w/Catholics who wish to consider me “a brother”, but I just can’t “swallow the whole camel” as it were, and can no longer give my amen to things I don’t believe.
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… You do realize that you just conclusively proved my point, right?

Anyways, what don’t you believe? You’re entire purpose in posting this was to learn what and why we believe, so why not start asking? Either that, or you were looking for an excuse to abandon the Faith, in which case there’s little we can do except remind you that the Truth is not pliable; just because you can’t accept something doesn’t make it any less true.
 
Fragile said:
Really, it’s cool, it wasn’t just this, long time coming, I’m out. I’m still cool w/Catholics who wish to consider me “a brother”, but I just can’t “swallow the whole camel” as it were, and can no longer give my amen to things I don’t believe.
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Sorry…please stay. The thing is you didn’t cite your quote…I don’t know what rad-Fundy is.

Really the only reason to stay is we have a list of popes in an unbroken line from biblical times to now.
List of Popes:
St. Peter (32-67)
St. Linus (67-76)
St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
St. Clement I (88-97)
St. Evaristus (97-105)
St. Alexander I (105-115)
St. Sixtus I (115-125) Also called Xystus I
St. Telesphorus (125-136)
St. Hyginus (136-140)
St. Pius I (140-155)
St. Anicetus (155-166)
St. Soter (166-175)
St. Eleutherius (175-189)
St. Victor I (189-199)
St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
St. Callistus I (217-22) Callistus and the following three popes were opposed by St. Hippolytus, antipope (217-236)
St. Urban I (222-30)
St. Pontain (230-35)
St. Anterus (235-36)
St. Fabian (236-50)
St. Cornelius (251-53) Opposed by Novatian, antipope (251)
St. Lucius I (253-54)
St. Stephen I (254-257)
St. Sixtus II (257-258)
St. Dionysius (260-268)
St. Felix I (269-274)
St. Eutychian (275-283)
St. Caius (283-296) Also called Gaius
St. Marcellinus (296-304)
St. Marcellus I (308-309)
St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
St. Miltiades (311-14)
St. Sylvester I (314-35)
St. Marcus (336)
St. Julius I (337-52)
Liberius (352-66) Opposed by Felix II, antipope (355-365)
St. Damasus I (366-83) Opposed by Ursicinus, antipope (366-367)
St. Siricius (384-99)
St. Anastasius I (399-401)
St. Innocent I (401-17)
St. Zosimus (417-18)
St. Boniface I (418-22) Opposed by Eulalius, antipope (418-419)
St. Celestine I (422-32)
St. Sixtus III (432-40)
St. Leo I (the Great) (440-61)
St. Hilarius (461-68)
St. Simplicius (468-83)
St. Felix III (II) (483-92)
St. Gelasius I (492-96)
Anastasius II (496-98)
St. Symmachus (498-514) Opposed by Laurentius, antipope (498-501)
St. Hormisdas (514-23)
St. John I (523-26)
St. Felix IV (III) (526-30)
Boniface II (530-32) Opposed by Dioscorus, antipope (530)
John II (533-35)
St. Agapetus I (535-36) Also called Agapitus I
St. Silverius (536-37)
Vigilius (537-55)
Pelagius I (556-61)
John III (561-74)
Benedict I (575-79)
Pelagius II (579-90)
St. Gregory I (the Great) (590-604)
Sabinian (604-606)
Boniface III (607)
St. Boniface IV (608-15)
St. Deusdedit (Adeodatus I) (615-18)
Boniface V (619-25)
Honorius I (625-38)
Severinus (640)
John IV (640-42)
Theodore I (642-49)
St. Martin I (649-55)
St. Eugene I (655-57)
St. Vitalian (657-72)
Adeodatus (II) (672-76)
Donus (676-78)
St. Agatho (678-81)
St. Leo II (682-83)
St. Benedict II (684-85)
John V (685-86)
Conon (686-87)
St. Sergius I (687-701) Opposed by Theodore and Paschal, antipopes (687)
John VI (701-05)
John VII (705-07)
Sisinnius (708)
Constantine (708-15)
St. Gregory II (715-31)
St. Gregory III (731-41)
St. Zachary (741-52)
Stephen II (752) Because he died before being consecrated, many authoritative lists omit him
Stephen III (752-57)
St. Paul I (757-67)
Stephen IV (767-72) Opposed by Constantine II (767) and Philip (768), antipopes (767)
Adrian I (772-95)
St. Leo III (795-816)
Stephen V (816-17)
St. Paschal I (817-24)
Eugene II (824-27)
Valentine (827)
Gregory IV (827-44)
Sergius II (844-47) Opposed by John, antipope (855)
St. Leo IV (847-55)
Benedict III (855-58) Opposed by Anastasius, antipope (855)
St. Nicholas I (the Great) (858-67)
Adrian II (867-72)
John VIII (872-82)
Marinus I (882-84)
St. Adrian III (884-85)
Stephen VI (885-91)
Formosus (891-96)
Boniface VI (896)
Stephen VII (896-97)
Romanus (897)
Theodore II (897)
John IX (898-900)
Benedict IV (900-03)
Leo V (903) Opposed by Christopher, antipope (903-904)
Sergius III (904-11)
Anastasius III (911-13)
Lando (913-14)
John X (914-28)
Leo VI (928)
Stephen VIII (929-31)
John XI (931-35)
Leo VII (936-39)
Stephen IX (939-42)
Marinus II (942-46)
Agapetus II (946-55)
John XII (955-63)
Leo VIII (963-64)
Benedict V (964)
John XIII (965-72)
Benedict VI (973-74)
Benedict VII (974-83) Benedict and John XIV were opposed by Boniface VII, antipope (974; 984-985)
John XIV (983-84)
John XV (985-96)
Gregory V (996-99) Opposed by John XVI, antipope (997-998)
Sylvester II (999-1003)
John XVII (1003)
John XVIII (1003-09)
Sergius IV (1009-12)
Benedict VIII (1012-24) Opposed by Gregory, antipope (1012)
John XIX (1024-32)
Benedict IX (1032-45) He appears on this list three separate times, because he was twice deposed and restored
Sylvester III (1045) Considered by some to be an antipope
Benedict IX (1045)
Gregory VI (1045-46)
Clement II (1046-47)
Benedict IX (1047-48)
Damasus II (1048)
St. Leo IX (1049-54)
Victor II (1055-57)
Stephen X (1057-58)
Nicholas II (1058-61) Opposed by Benedict X, antipope (1058)
Alexander II (1061-73) Opposed by Honorius II, antipope (1061-1072)
St. Gregory VII (1073-85) Gregory and the following three popes were opposed by Guibert (“Clement III”), antipope (1080-1100)
Blessed Victor III (1086-87)
etc.
 
The_Blunt_Brig said:
Sorry…please stay. The thing is you didn’t cite your quote…I don’t know what rad-Fundy is.

Really the only reason to stay is we have a list of popes in an unbroken line from biblical times to now.
List of Popes:
St. Peter (32-67)
St. Linus (67-76)
St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
St. Clement I (88-97)
St. Evaristus (97-105)
St. Alexander I (105-115)
St. Sixtus I (115-125) Also called Xystus I
St. Telesphorus (125-136)
St. Hyginus (136-140)
St. Pius I (140-155)
St. Anicetus (155-166)
St. Soter (166-175)
St. Eleutherius (175-189)
St. Victor I (189-199)
St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
St. Callistus I (217-22) Callistus and the following three popes were opposed by St. Hippolytus, antipope (217-236)
St. Urban I (222-30)
St. Pontain (230-35)
St. Anterus (235-36)
St. Fabian (236-50)
St. Cornelius (251-53) Opposed by Novatian, antipope (251)
St. Lucius I (253-54)
St. Stephen I (254-257)
St. Sixtus II (257-258)
St. Dionysius (260-268)
St. Felix I (269-274)
St. Eutychian (275-283)
St. Caius (283-296) Also called Gaius
St. Marcellinus (296-304)
St. Marcellus I (308-309)
St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
St. Miltiades (311-14)
St. Sylvester I (314-35)
St. Marcus (336)
St. Julius I (337-52)
Liberius (352-66) Opposed by Felix II, antipope (355-365)
St. Damasus I (366-83) Opposed by Ursicinus, antipope (366-367)
St. Siricius (384-99)
St. Anastasius I (399-401)
St. Innocent I (401-17)
St. Zosimus (417-18)
St. Boniface I (418-22) Opposed by Eulalius, antipope (418-419)
St. Celestine I (422-32)
St. Sixtus III (432-40)
St. Leo I (the Great) (440-61)
St. Hilarius (461-68)
St. Simplicius (468-83)
St. Felix III (II) (483-92)
St. Gelasius I (492-96)
Anastasius II (496-98)
St. Symmachus (498-514) Opposed by Laurentius, antipope (498-501)
St. Hormisdas (514-23)
St. John I (523-26)
St. Felix IV (III) (526-30)
Boniface II (530-32) Opposed by Dioscorus, antipope (530)
John II (533-35)
St. Agapetus I (535-36) Also called Agapitus I
St. Silverius (536-37)
Vigilius (537-55)
Pelagius I (556-61)
John III (561-74)
Benedict I (575-79)
Pelagius II (579-90)
St. Gregory I (the Great) (590-604)
Sabinian (604-606)
Boniface III (607)
St. Boniface IV (608-15)
St. Deusdedit (Adeodatus I) (615-18)
Boniface V (619-25)
Honorius I (625-38)
Severinus (640)
John IV (640-42)
Theodore I (642-49)
St. Martin I (649-55)
St. Eugene I (655-57)
St. Vitalian (657-72)
Adeodatus (II) (672-76)
Donus (676-78)
St. Agatho (678-81)
St. Leo II (682-83)
St. Benedict II (684-85)
John V (685-86)
Conon (686-87)
St. Sergius I (687-701) Opposed by Theodore and Paschal, antipopes (687)
John VI (701-05)
John VII (705-07)
Sisinnius (708)
Constantine (708-15)
St. Gregory II (715-31)
St. Gregory III (731-41)
St. Zachary (741-52)
Stephen II (752) Because he died before being consecrated, many authoritative lists omit him
Stephen III (752-57)
St. Paul I (757-67)
Stephen IV (767-72) Opposed by Constantine II (767) and Philip (768), antipopes (767)
Adrian I (772-95)
St. Leo III (795-816)
Stephen V (816-17)
St. Paschal I (817-24)
Eugene II (824-27)
Valentine (827)
Gregory IV (827-44)
Sergius II (844-47) Opposed by John, antipope (855)
St. Leo IV (847-55)
Benedict III (855-58) Opposed by Anastasius, antipope (855)
St. Nicholas I (the Great) (858-67)
Adrian II (867-72)
John VIII (872-82)
Marinus I (882-84)
St. Adrian III (884-85)
Stephen VI (885-91)
Formosus (891-96)
Boniface VI (896)
Stephen VII (896-97)
Romanus (897)
Theodore II (897)
John IX (898-900)
Benedict IV (900-03)
Leo V (903) Opposed by Christopher, antipope (903-904)
Sergius III (904-11)
Anastasius III (911-13)
Lando (913-14)
John X (914-28)
Leo VI (928)
Stephen VIII (929-31)
John XI (931-35)
Leo VII (936-39)
Stephen IX (939-42)
Marinus II (942-46)
Agapetus II (946-55)
John XII (955-63)
Leo VIII (963-64)
Benedict V (964)
John XIII (965-72)
Benedict VI (973-74)
Benedict VII (974-83) Benedict and John XIV were opposed by Boniface VII, antipope (974; 984-985)
John XIV (983-84)
John XV (985-96)
Gregory V (996-99) Opposed by John XVI, antipope (997-998)
Sylvester II (999-1003)
John XVII (1003)
John XVIII (1003-09)
Sergius IV (1009-12)
Benedict VIII (1012-24) Opposed by Gregory, antipope (1012)
John XIX (1024-32)
Benedict IX (1032-45) He appears on this list three separate times, because he was twice deposed and restored
Sylvester III (1045) Considered by some to be an antipope
Benedict IX (1045)
Gregory VI (1045-46)
Clement II (1046-47)
Benedict IX (1047-48)
Damasus II (1048)
St. Leo IX (1049-54)
Victor II (1055-57)
Stephen X (1057-58)
Nicholas II (1058-61) Opposed by Benedict X, antipope (1058)
Alexander II (1061-73) Opposed by Honorius II, antipope (1061-1072)
St. Gregory VII (1073-85) Gregory and the following three popes were opposed by Guibert (“Clement III”), antipope (1080-1100)
Blessed Victor III (1086-87)
etc.
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Thanks for the list.
 
“I was converted through the preaching of Billy Graham.” --Fr. Larry Richards

Fr. Larry must either be deceived or a liar, since all Protestantism does is drag souls to Hell!
 
Fragile said:
“I was converted through the preaching of Billy Graham.” --Fr. Larry Richards

Fr. Larry must either be deceived or a liar, since all Protestantism does is drag souls to Hell!
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Bro, Protestantism is built on a mountain of logical fallacies. You prodys (since apparently spelling out words to show respect to those who believe them is too civilized for this discussion…) view the Bible as the final source for God’s revelation. Where in the Bible does it say that? It says that God’s word would live on forever, but do you really think God would limit this revelation to a book? A book, which by the way, was compiled, under the direction of the Holy Spirit, by the Catholic Church itself. Oh, and forget the seven books Martin Luther just through out because they contradicted his view of the world.
More importantly By what authority did Luther make his claims? Simply saying “I disagree with it so it must be wrong” is a cop out.

Secondly, why did Christ himself found a church, upon Saint Peter, and say that “the gates of hell will not prevail against it”? You could say that Peter’s power ended at his death, but then why did he build a physical church, and not merely leave it to a community of believers, as Luther claimed?

You also blatantly disregard Bible passages and things that Christ himself said, especially James’ epistle, which clearly rejects Luther’s view of justification by faith alone, and John, which rejects the protestant view of the Eucharist.

Is Jesus Christ a stupid man? If you say yes to this question then I pray for his mercy upon you. He understood that once He left earth, there would be questions for future generations on morality and the very nature of Himself. It would then make sense, logically, that Christ would leave behind a Church that the Holy Spirit would guide and make sure that these issues were dealt with.

Would you also agree that there is but one truth in this world? That truth is God, and we know that truth through Christ’s personal life, death and Resurrection, through the Bible that He left us, and through the Church in which He founded. There is but one truth. Your theology is different from the thousands of protestant denominations left in the wake of Luther, each dogmatically claiming that there is no dogma, because they have no authority to make their claims in the first place.

If it did not matter to which church one belonged to, then what is this all for and why did Christ found one church and promise to protect it? Heretics, those who would willingly delude themselves shall never enter the Kingdom of Heaven, because the Kingdom of Heaven is only for those who accept the truth willingly in its purest form.

And it takes more than just “believing in Jesus” to get to heaven, as Jesus clearly points out when he says " Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." Mt 7:21

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the “eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” - Pope Eugene IV, 1441

God bless you, my friend, and may He reveal the truth to you before your death.

Mother Mary, pray for us.
 
Fragile, you are on an online forum. I would estimate that 90% of posters on here (and probably any online forum) are extremists or traditionalists. The Internet isn’t a place for moderation.

That said, you are right, Protestants have done a lot of good in the world. Through charities and missions they have made a lot of conversions. I have many Protestant family members whom I I disagree with on a lot of things, but they are good people and they have helped a lot of people.

To everyone else. Can’t you see that all he is asking for is some reasonable dialogue? Yet all you guys are doing is affirming what he said about extremists and antiprotestant Catholics. You can’t even recognize good in Protestants or Protestants?
 
While maintaining the claims of the Church, Catholic Answers Live has never taken this extreme position, as well as many here I suppose, but I’m fully aware that they’re here, there and everywhere, and they all love to get on the web w/a megaphone! :eek:
 
jimmy said:
Fragile, you are on an online forum. I would estimate that 90% of posters on here (and probably any online forum) are extremists or traditionalists. The Internet isn’t a place for moderation.

That said, you are right, Protestants have done a lot of good in the world. Through charities and missions they have made a lot of conversions. I have many Protestant family members whom I I disagree with on a lot of things, but they are good people and they have helped a lot of people.

To everyone else. Can’t you see that all he is asking for is some reasonable dialogue? Yet all you guys are doing is affirming what he said about extremists and antiprotestant Catholics. You can’t even recognize good in Protestants or Protestants?
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Look, I recognize that there are elements of truth outside of the Catholic faith, but I also recognize that it is a distorted form. One cannot call themselves Catholic if they reject Catholic dogma, and it is a dogma of the church to claim that outside of the church there is no salvation. That was something I struggled with when I first flirted with becoming a Catholic, yet I came to recognize that there is but one truth. I do know that protestants do good works in this world, but ultimately it’s the state of souls in the next world that truly matters.

I have protestant family members, in fact I was once a protestant. It’s hard to look at people you love and know but understand in your heart that if they die in the state they are in, the have a slim chance of salvation. But simply because I find something hard to handle, doesn’t mean it’s not true. But that makes it even more necessary to be even louder about this, because we truly do not want them damned.

What’s your form of reasonable dialogue? We could sugar coat the argument, but we have to get it clear that if one rejects Catholic dogma they have no hope of salvation, because the Church says so, and the Church was given its authority by Jesus Christ, God on Earth.

And we “extremists” and “anitprotestants” wouldn’t be here if we truly hated protestants. Every person has a duty to defend the Catholic faith by any means he is able. The internet is a new medium for conversion. In fact, it is the internet that first inspired me to join the Catholic Church. If you call yourself Catholic, then you obviously believe it’s the fullness of truth, correct? If somebody is saying things that aren’t true, it would only make sense for one to defend the truth. One is not called “anti-delusionals” for claiming that the Earth is round, so why is this different?

And come on, Fragile looks anti-Catholic enough. He called us “Rad-Trads” and “Rad-Fundy’s”
Fragile said:
While maintaining the claims of the Church, Catholic Answers Live has never taken this extreme position, as well as many here I suppose, but I’m fully aware that they’re here, there and everywhere, and they all love to get on the web w/a megaphone! :eek:
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The hierarchy of the Church has not emphasized this dogma in recent decades. It does not mean that this isn’t true anymore, since one cannot change dogma. We may be louder about these dogmas than others, but we wouldn’t be if we simply hated protestants. We are not extreme either. One must embrace the Catholic faith in its entirely, or reject it in its entirety. I also don’t believe Catholic Answers live has any magisterial authority either.

May God go with you, Fragile.
 
Dude, you sound like a feneyite, which is a heresy itself. You sit there and point out how others are probably going to hell, but feneyism has been condemned by the church.
 
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