Radical Islam or True Islam? : Calling Jesus the Begotten Son of God is Blasphemy

[Hatikvah]

A lot of protestants also condemn Catholics for being blasphemous re: our Lady and “statue worshipping”. They have less of an excuse for their ignorance as our religions are more similar and Protestants and Catholics have always co-existed in Western society since the reformation.

Yeah, half a millenium sure goes by fast when the two are constantly accusing each other of heresy and blasphemy.

Well, old wounds, just water under the bridge. We have freedom of religion now, so there’s no need to kill each other.

 

[MartinJordan]

So tell me, what do you think Jesus would tell you about himself and then Mohammad? There is real truth and one should not be afraid to say it and there is only one way to the Father - Jesus Christ! “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” - true or not?

Frankly I also cannot see how this will help deailng with Islam to dialogue by stating things liike this. After all Jesus own disciples doubted him despite being with him by running away during the crucifixion events . So I suggest more nuance .

Now how can we charitably explain to Muslims why Jesus is indeed the Begotten Son of God?

Peace be with you .

MJ

 

[Hatikvah]

Now how can we charitably explain to Muslims why Jesus is indeed the Begotten Son of God?

I think it all lies in the Trinity and in the deity of Christ, which the Qur’an thoroughly refutes in swift blows (if only Christians used that as their holy book). There’s an entire Wikipedia page on Islam and the Trinity: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_the_Trinity

They must understand where God the Son is before they understand His humanity and divinity (hypostatic union), His virgin birth, His atonement, and all of the other doctrines that can be held.

 

[noorez]

Now how can we charitably explain to Muslims why Jesus is indeed the Begotten Son of God?
MJ

At the first I was told that God was three guys in the sky. That was how the trinity was explained to me a long time a go…which I later learnt was not taught my the fathers of the church.

I had the following questions and was able to find answers.

1. what is the nature of the begetting of the Son? Obviously can’t be a biological one. Later leaned that this could be termed an intellectual birth. The Father is perpetually contemplating himself and the result of that is generating a perfect image which is the son.
2. what is the difference between the generation of the Son and holy spirit?
   Can’t be the same otherwise there would be two sons…later I learned that the son is generated by an act of necessity and the spirit by and act of will. One is an intellectual generation and the other a passive spiration.
3. what does it mean to be a person within the Godhead?
   Hypostasis is a better word. A hypostasis does not seem to have their own separate mind, conscious or will. There is only one of each in God…

Now this explained makes a lot of sense rather than three guys in the sky

 

[JustaServant]

So tell me, what do you think Jesus would tell you about himself and then Mohammad? There is real truth and one should not be afraid to say it and there is only one way to the Father - Jesus Christ! “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” - true or not?

Dialogue and debate are to be done with respect and within the boundaries of dignity to other people regardless of whether we agree with them. That is what Christ and His Church teaches, and what is spelled out in the forum rules.

 

[Hatikvah]

1. what is the difference between the generation of the Son and holy spirit?
   Can’t be the same otherwise there would be two sons…later I learned that the son is generated by an act of necessity and the spirit by and act of will. One is an intellectual generation and the other a passive spiration.

No, neither the generation of the Son nor the procession of the Holy Spirit are voluntarily by the act of the Father’s will. The Father does not will Them into existence, They have always existed just as He has.

The difference is that the Son only comes from the Father and from Him alone; the Holy Spirit comes from the Father, and the Son inherits the Holy Spirit from the Father (and thus He goes “through” the Son). There is still some East vs. West Christian controversy called the “Filioque Controversy” based around the language used to describe it.

Here are two articles with this (a Calvinist source, not Catholic):

Eternal generation of the Son: theopedia.com/eternal-generation-of-the-son

Procession of the Holy Spirit: theopedia.com/procession-of-the-holy-spirit

 

[noorez]

No, neither the generation of the Son nor the procession of the Holy Spirit are voluntarily by the act of the Father’s will. The Father does not will Them into existence, They have always existed just as He has.

Thanks for the links!

I didn’t mean here to imply that there was a time when the son and spirit did not exist prior to the Father bringing them into existence. What I was reading was just trying to explain the processions of the persons. What I read previously does say that the birth of the son is by nature of the Father. The spiration of the holy spirit comes about because of the act of mutual love between the first two and this why the source seemed to say the holy spirit is born by an act of will. They will to love each other by their very nature…

I’ll keep reading though! Lots to know.

 

[MartinJordan]

Thanks for the links!

I didn’t mean here to imply that there was a time when the son and spirit did not exist prior to the Father bringing them into existence. What I was reading was just trying to explain the processions of the persons. What I read previously does say that the birth of the son is by nature of the Father. The spiration of the holy spirit comes about because of the act of mutual love between the first two and this why the source seemed to say the holy spirit is born by an act of will. They will to love each other by their very nature…

I’ll keep reading though! Lots to know.

While I admire your attempt to understand i notice you’ve not capitalized Holy Spirit nor the Son. Could you pls allow me to ask why?

Secondly my intention in this thread was not to get into the spiration of the Holy Spirit but to ask why call it blasphemous to take Christians belief in Jesus as the Begotten Son of God by the Quran strait forward rejection without tracing this Chrstian belief ?

Look forward to your responses.

MJ

 

[anon67074017]

That is pure Islam. Muslims fail to recognize Jesus as the Son of God. I hope that Muslims see the truth about Jesus.

 

[LMU]

A lot of protestants also condemn Catholics for being blasphemous re: our Lady and “statue worshipping”. They have less of an excuse for their ignorance as our religions are more similar and Protestants and Catholics have always co-existed in Western society since the reformation.

Coexisted?

 

[hasantas]

For sure, it’s a complex doctrine. Unfortunately, many muslims misunderstand what christians mean when they say that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. They think christians believe that God had sex with Mary, but that’s not what christians believe at all. From what I can tell, christians believe that he is the Son because He was begotten by the Holy Spirit (obviously not through sex, but through a miracle. Mary was a virgin). He’s the Son of the Father, but I don’t understand what that means.

I confess that I don’t quite understand the doctrines of Christ as they are taught within Christianity, especially the hypostatic union.

I know not such Muslim. Do you realy know one? That is not a relevant way of think for a Muslim! If we should think a mother so that must be a divine one at least!

 

[hasantas]

Any idea? I’m not sure.

MJ

There is no radical Islam. But there are people with radical thoughts.

 

[hasantas]

Islam blatantly denies the divinity of Jesus Christ…

From the Koran, just a couple of the many verses denying the divinity of Christ;
“It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son.
yea, they (Christians) are a contentious people. He (Christ) was no more than a servant.”
19;35-59

Inscriptions on Islam’s dome on the rock mosque…

“It befitteth not (the Majesty of) God that He should take unto Himself a son.”

“Far be it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son.”
“God, Who hath not taken unto Himself a son…”
“That is Jesus son of Mary, in word of truth, about which they are doubting. It is not for God to take a son.”

Against the Christian Trinitarian concept of God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)…
“There is no god but God. He is One. He has no associate.”
“. The Messiah Jesus son of Mary, was only God’s messenger,… Do not say ‘three’ (Trinity). Refrain,…”

And on and on and on.

Holy Bible, 1 John 2:22;
“He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.”

And someone deny Son because they ascribe Son divine attributes but Father and Son did not claim such thing. So Muslims are on the most right faithful way.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Revelation 19

17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,

18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. Matthew 12

 

[JMM1957]

There is no radical Islam. But there are people with radical thoughts.

Definition of radical: a) very different from the usual or traditional : extreme b) favoring extreme changes in existing views, habits, conditions, or institutions c) associated with political views, practices, and policies of extreme change d) advocating extreme measures to retain or restore a political state of affairs

These people who promote “radical Islam” are indeed Muslims who may not always have had radical views about Islam, but who changed their views at some point. These same people with their radical thoughts seek out other people with the same or similar radical thoughts, and together they make these radical thoughts become reality.

 

[MartinJordan]

And someone deny Son because they ascribe Son divine attributes but Father and Son did not claim such thing. So Muslims are on the most right faithful way.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Revelation 19

17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,

18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. Matthew 12

What is this?

From your Imam?

MJ

 

[josh987654321]

What is this?

From your Imam?

MJ

From the Qur’an I believe, the Qur’an paints a very different Jesus, this is why it’s deceptive for people to just say that Christianity and Islam both recognize/admire Jesus.

The Qur’an also basically says that Jesus didn’t die on the cross, and that Christians have made up the divinity of Christ and fallen into idolatry due to this.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[MartinJordan]

From the Qur’an I believe, the Qur’an paints a very different Jesus, this is why it’s deceptive for people to just say that Christianity and Islam both recognize/admire Jesus.

The Qur’an also basically says that Jesus didn’t die on the cross, and that Christians have made up the divinity of Christ and fallen into idolatry due to this.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

Thanks Josh. However I got that. But using Rev 19 verse 9 talks about the Wedding Supper of the Lamb then verse 10. The Lamb is Jesus. So Hasantas is throwing verses left and right without any recognition of context. Sad that this is being used for proof. I pity such strange and odd verse choices are taken seriously by a Muslim.

Matthew 10 started with Jesus as Lord of the Sabbath so using it is also strange and odd.

MJ

 

[JimmyDFG]

From the Qur’an:

When the angel said, ‘O Mary! verily, God gives thee the glad tidings of a Word from Him; his name shall be the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, regarded in this world and the next and of those whose place is nigh to God. And he shall speak to people in his cradle, and when grown up, and shall be among the righteous.’

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura   3  (Imran's Family) starting with verse 45 - )

Note the various translations:

corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=3&verse=45

*O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word “Be!” - and he was! i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary)] from Him, his name will be the Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus),
“Behold,” the angels told Mary, "God has given you the glad news of the coming birth of a son whom He calls His Word, whose name will be Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, who will be a man of honor in this life and the life to come, and who will be one of the ones nearest to God.

Lets compare between the Bible and the Quran…
Luke1:26 In the sixth month,the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth,

Luke 1:28-35 &38
28 And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

29 But she was greatly troubled at what was said and pondered what sort of greeting this might be.

30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.

31 Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus.

32 He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father

33 and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”

34 But Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?”

35 And the angel said to her in reply, “The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy,the Son of God.

38 Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.” Then the angel departed from her.

Matthew 1:20-21
Such was his intention when, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife into your home. For it is through the holy Spirit that this child has been conceived in her.

She will bear a son and you are to name him Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins"

Quran 3:45
[And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah ].

In Luke the angel Gabriel proclaims to Mary of her son Jesus. In the Quran we see “the angels”. How many more angels?

In the Bible we see “Son of God” compare to the Quran “the son of Mary”

Also in the Bible we see…
“He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High”,
“his kingdom there will be no end”.
“the child to be born will be called holy,the Son of God.”

In the Quran…
“good tidings”
“distinguished in this world and the Hereafter”

 

[JimmyDFG]

And someone deny Son because they ascribe Son divine attributes but Father and Son did not claim such thing. So Muslims are on the most right faithful way.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Revelation 19

17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,

18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. Matthew 12

Since you’ve used the book of Revelation tell me the meaning of Revelation 19:6-8

6 Then I heard something like the sound of a great multitude or the sound of rushing water or mighty peals of thunder, as they said:
“Alleluia!
The Lord has established his reign,
[our] God, the almighty.

7 Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory.
For the wedding day of the Lamb has come,
his bride has made herself ready.

8 She was allowed to wear
a bright, clean linen garment.”
(The linen represents the righteous deeds of the holy ones.)

When using the book of Revelation make sure you know the meaning.

Matthew 3:16-17

16 After Jesus was baptized, he came up from the water and behold, the heavens were opened [for him], and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove [and] coming upon him.

17 And a voice came from the heavens, saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

 

[SalamKhan]

To be honest, no one knows what true Islam is anyway.

When it comes to jurisprudence, there are four main schools of thought (there used to be more):

Hanafi (the oldest of the four, generally tolerates the other three)
Maliki (has not tolerated the Hanafi historically, but does today)
Shafi (has not tolerated the Hanafi historically, but does today)
Hanbali (has not tolerated the Hanafi historically, and still does not to this day)

When it comes to theology, there are three main schools thought:

Athari (used to be considered orthodox, and condemns all other schools)
Ashari (considered orthodox since perhaps Imam Ghazzali)
Maturidi (considered orthodox since sometime in the Medieval period)

Muslim scholars also believe in the concept of infallibility, which comes from ijma (consensus), but the extent of this consensus differs among them (I am not entirely sure how many of the following are still believed in):

Consensus of the Sahaba (those Muslims who witnessed Muhammad)
Consensus of the Salaf (the first three generations of Muslims)
Consensus of the Ulama (the learned ones)
Consensus of the Ummah (every Muslim from scholar to layperson)

Of course, you have the movements today like the Barelvis, Deobandis and Ahle Hadith (Salafi/Wahhabi), who systemise selections from the above, and two of the movements incorporate certain Sufi spiritualities.

And this is just Sunni Islam.