Radio discussion question: Membership in the Church necessary for salvation?

[MT1926]

But, again, “being saved” means being anointed in Baptism into membership in the Kingdom of God, means being a member of the Church, means the establishment of “sonship with an intended inheritance”. It does not mean “going to heaven”.

“going to heaven” is not the same as being saved - going to heaven is the receipt of the inheritance. And those who abandon the hope and dwell willfully in sin have no inheritance in the Kingdom of God and of his Christ, while others who were not expecting an inheritance will find they receive one anyway because they fed Jesus when he was hungry.

Nicely said. That does seem to be the biggest problem of our times. We take 1st century words from the Bible and apply our own out of context 20th century meaning. I’ve lost count of the number of times I have heard people believe the word pray is synonymous with the word worship. When in all actuality the word pray simply means to ask or solemnly request.

 

[laocmo]

Again, regarding Is membership in the Catholic Church necessary for salvation? A yes or no answer is entirely possible. The proof is here.

Most of you would agree that there are many good Catholics in Heaven, thousands of years worth of them, Saints, martyrs, our mothers and fathers, etc. I think all would agree there are many good, kind, God and fellow man loving Protestants in Heaven. The same could be said for any number of basically good, loving, kind people of any religion.

Then a simple yes or no answer to the question “Is membership in the Catholic Church necessary for salvation” is completely possible. The answer is a big NO. As shown above.

There is one solution to the discussion that would make the answer a big YES. If somehow all people of the world, at the moment of their death were by some miracle mystically converted to Catholicism. I have never read of that possibility. Any thoughts?

 

[MT1926]

Again, regarding Is membership in the Catholic Church necessary for salvation? A yes or no answer is entirely possible. The proof is here.

Most of you would agree that there are many good Catholics in Heaven, thousands of years worth of them, Saints, martyrs, our mothers and fathers, etc. I think all would agree there are many good, kind, God and fellow man loving Protestants in Heaven. The same could be said for any number of basically good, loving, kind people of any religion.

Then a simple yes or no answer to the question “Is membership in the Catholic Church necessary for salvation” is completely possible. The answer is a big NO. As shown above.

There is one solution to the discussion that would make the answer a big YES. If somehow all people of the world, at the moment of their death were by some miracle mystically converted to Catholicism. I have never read of that possibility. Any thoughts?

I ask this question out of kindness and not to be rude, but is there a reason why you need the answer to be a yes or a no?

The reason I ask is because you are basically asking us to be the judge. I think the answer the Catholic Church has given is quite reasonable. Let’s think this through logically. If we answer “Yes” then we are placing ourselves above God and doing what he has reserved for himself, by judging non-Catholics. If we say “No” than we are saying that the Sacraments given to us by Christ are of little importance. By denying the gifts of the Sacraments given to us by Christ we are denying him. We are bound by his Sacraments, he is not. When our judgement day arrives it is his choice to hold or not hold us accountable for our denial of the Sacraments, not ours.

I reread you comments and one final note. You stated:

The proof is here.

Most of you would agree that there are many good Catholics in Heaven, thousands of years worth of them, Saints, martyrs, our mothers and fathers, etc. I think all would agree there are many good, kind, God and fellow man loving Protestants in Heaven. The same could be said for any number of basically good, loving, kind people of any religion.

Although I do agree this is entirely plausible. I don’t see how this can be considered proof for a “YES/NO” answer without knowing what their judgement results were and knowing how they got their. Once again we are bound by the rules God is not. Also, I am sure you would agree none of us are going to sit their on judgement day and say "what you talkin bout God, I was a good person, you owe me.:tsktsk:

 

[laocmo]

I ask this question out of kindness and not to be rude, but is there a reason why you need the answer to be a yes or a no?

The statement made by the radio guest was a definitely YES, one has to be a member of the Church to attain salvation. He then went on to contradict himself by saying that there were also a lot of Protestants and other non Catholics in Heaven. So the answer is definitely not a YES. That only leaves a NO as the answer. How much more simple could that reasoning be?? I’d just like some Catholic to be brave enough to come forward and admit it, that it is NOT necessary to be a Catholic to attain Heaven.

 

[MT1926]

The statement made by the radio guest was a definitely YES, one has to be a member of the Church to attain salvation. He then went on to contradict himself by saying that there were also a lot of Protestants and other non Catholics in Heaven. So the answer is definitely not a YES. That only leaves a NO as the answer. How much more simple could that reasoning be?? I’d just like some Catholic to be brave enough to come forward and admit it, that it is NOT necessary to be a Catholic to attain Heaven.

It has nothing to do with bravery. Like I said in my last post:

I think the answer the Catholic Church has given is quite reasonable. Let’s think this through logically. If we answer “Yes” then we are placing ourselves above God and doing what he has reserved for himself, by judging non-Catholics. If we say “No” than we are saying that the Sacraments given to us by Christ are of little importance. By denying the gifts of the Sacraments given to us by Christ we are denying him. We are bound by his Sacraments, he is not. When our judgement day arrives it is his choice to hold or not hold us accountable for our denial of the Sacraments, not ours.

We can’t say yes or no because the decision isn’t ours to make. So basically all we can say is “Yes” we must follow the “Biblical plan” for salvation, given to the Catholic Church from Christ through his Apostles. However, that does not mean Jesus can’t do whatever he darn well feels like doing.

Jesus said there are a lot of thinks we must do to attain salvation. Whether he wants to bind us to all of them or non of them is his choice not ours. If someone has the strength to look Jesus in the eyes on judgement day and say “all you said I had to do is believe” have a blast.

I for one have been in business long enough to know if someone isn’t left in charge the business is doomed to failure. How’s the old saying go? Too many cooks in the kitchen spoils the broth. Jesus is smart enough to leave an authority here on earth, whether you choose to follower her or not is between you and God. I didn’t make the rules nor do I have the authority to say which ones are binding on us. That is why the answer is Yes and No.

 

[Pound_Coolish]

We can’t say yes or no because the decision isn’t ours to make.

If that’s your argument, we can’t say yes or no about Jesus coming to earth, because the decision wasn’t ours. We also can’t say anything about the resurrection, about Purgatory, et cetera.

Our control over a decision and how much knowledge of it we should pursue are not linked.

We can never fully understand understand the incarnation, but we can darn well state the facts of it we do know.

We do know that there are good and holy people who are not Catholic. We do know that Jesus merciful. We do know the church teaches that if you die in a state of grace you will go to Heaven, and that state of grace is not limited to those who are Catholic.

 

[MT1926]

If that’s your argument, we can’t say yes or no about Jesus coming to earth, because the decision wasn’t ours. We also can’t say anything about the resurrection, about Purgatory, et cetera.

Our control over a decision and how much knowledge of it we should pursue are not linked.

We can never fully understand understand the incarnation, but we can darn well state the facts of it we do know.

I’m not sure where you are going with this.

Why does me saying only God can judge yes or no on our salvation equate to we can’t say yes or no Jesus came to earth? I agree the decision wasn’t ours for Jesus to come down here and save us. Not sure what that has to do with my argument. As for Purgatory it is in the same ballpark. We can’t say yes or no if someone is going to Purgatory or not. Not to mention we really don’t know a whole lot about Purgatory. Contrary to popular belief the church has only defined three principles of Purgatory. For some reason those who oppose the Catholic Church have made up incorrect information that the Church has this elaborate doctrine of purgatory. However, there are only three essential teachings on Purgatory: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God.

We do know that there are good and holy people who are not Catholic. We do know that Jesus merciful. We do know the church teaches that if you die in a state of grace you will go to Heaven, and that state of grace is not limited to those who are Catholic.

I agree with this. But you still failed to answer the question with a yes or no.

The statement made by the radio guest was a definitely YES, one has to be a member of the Church to attain salvation. He then went on to contradict himself by saying that there were also a lot of Protestants and other non Catholics in Heaven. So the answer is definitely not a YES. That only leaves a NO as the answer. How much more simple could that reasoning be?? I’d just like some Catholic to be brave enough to come forward and admit it, that it is NOT necessary to be a Catholic to attain Heaven.

So your answer is you (specifically and me and all other Catholics) do not have to be a member of the Catholic church to go to heaven?

 

[johnnyc176]

You don’t have to be Catholic to go to Heaven but everyone in Heaven is Catholic.

Jesus founded the Catholic Church as a means to salvation and desires all to be in His Church.

 

[Solmyr]

Ouch. After a good start, that was a poor finish. All are in need of salvation… :sad_yes:

I am pretty sure there is a misunderstanding here. What DaddyGirl said: “To a lot of the population, there isn’t even any need for any sort of “salvation”.” means (according to my understanding) that a lot of people find the concept of salvation meaningless and therefore they do not attach any value to it. They feel “no need” to be saved. Of course they might be wrong, that that is a different issue.

 

[laocmo]

In this group we tend to stray far from the original discussions. Perhaps because we are so tied up in our belief system we go out of our way to defend it to the point of forgetting the sometimes simple question originally posed. I’d like to re-formulate my OP without reference to religious ideas.

Suppose there was a large used car lot containing many cars of colors white, red, and blue. Would it be true to say that in order to find a home in this lot a car had to be white? The answer is an obvious NO. The fact that there are other colored cars present makes a YES answer to that question ridiculous.

Then replace the car lot with Heaven, the cars by people of various religious beliefs, and the colors by the particular religion of these individual people. Would it be true to say that in order to find a home in this Heaven a person had to be a Catholic? The answer is an obvious NO. The fact that there are other religious beliefs present makes a YES answer to that question ridiculous.

What makes the first scenario acceptable and the second arguable? They are identical in logical form.

 

[Vico]

I just listened to a discussion that went as follows. Is membership in the Catholic Church necessary for salvation? A quick answer by a Catholic radio priest speaker was an absolutely yes. In essence his argument was that anyone who knows the Catholic Church is the one true church and rejects it will never attain salvation. I suppose that means they are bound for Hell. Then he qualified his answer with a big “however”. Exceptions are made for those who have never heard of the Church, or have heard of it, but do not know its teachings. In other words the answer is also no. An answer that is a no nullifies the one that was yes. You can’t have a no and a yes answer to a simple two choice question like that. My question is why isn’t that question answered with a no to start with? I don’t like loopholes, especially ones that cover the great majority of the human race who are non-Catholics. Is it somehow more fitting to say yes, then contradict yourself with a no than to admit the answer is no?

There is only one Church of Christ and the members of it are the saints, living and dead. To be a saint requires a state of sanctifying grace. This state of habitual grace is prevented by original sin, but can be eliminated through baptism of water, desire, or blood, or after baptism and before death, by perfect contrition or absolution through the Church.

The Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church but there are particular churches and ecclessial communities with elements of truth.

… the Second Vatican Council’s Declaration on the relation of the Church to non-Christian religions states: “The Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy in these religions. She has a high regard for the manner of life and conduct, the precepts and teachings, which, although differing in many ways from her own teaching, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men”.4 Continuing in this line of thought, the Church’s proclamation of Jesus Christ, “the way, the truth, and the life” (Jn 14:6), today also makes use of the practice of inter-religious dialogue. Such dialogue certainly does not replace, but rather accompanies the missio ad gentes, directed toward that “mystery of unity”, from which “it follows that all men and women who are saved share, though differently, in the same mystery of salvation in Jesus Christ through his Spirit”.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

 

[fisherman_carl]

Salvation is broken down into 3 parts according to the Bible - past, present, and future. Part of salvation is freedom from sin and the attainment of holiness. God has planned a certain amount of holiness for all of us. The Sacraments are God’s grace to help us with this process. Is it possible to become holy apart from them? Sure, I would not deny that possibility. However, it would still require God’s grace. Does God work outside of the Sacraments? Sure, he can and has. The theif on the Cross did not have a chance to become a card carrying church member or experience any regular Sacraments. But, what he did have is Jesus. Jesus’ mercy and grace is the bare minimum for salvation. Jesus said if anyone denies him before men, he will deny before the Father.

Being a member of any church does not guarantee salvation. However, it is a lot harder to be saved apart from the Body of Christ and apart from his Sacraments which are channels of grace to help us to stay faithful and keep us on the way to holiness. If someone is ignorant of these things yet responds to God’s grace in his life he may be saved. Since God desires all to be saved. Yet, if he knows these are God’s channels of grace, yet he rejects them, then it is as if he rejected Christ himself.

Ultimately, God is the judge. So, we must come before him in humility and truth.