Raise Children as Christians or else Hell?

[Doxus]

I’m an atheist.

Don’t ban me yet! I’m not here to troll or deconvert anyone. I have a legitimate question about the Catholic faith in regards to my family.

My mother and grandmother are Catholic. I am not. My mother and grandmother both believe that because they failed to raise me as a Catholic, they are doomed to hell.

I want to know,

A.) Is this theologically sound, by Catholic doctrine? Do you consider them doomed to hell because I am not a Catholic or even any type of Christian?

B.) If this is not theologically sound, what are some good faith-based arguments I can present to them to convince them? They’ve resisted the argument of, “God punishing you for my personal choice would be fundamentally sick. A loving god would not do such a thing.”

This is causing my family emotional harm, and I wish to resolve it.

Thanks.

PS: Don’t waste time trying to proselytize, thanks. If you folks are willing to tolerate blasphemous heathens like myself hanging around I might be willing to debate, but I mainly just want this question answered.

Bye!

 

[ahs]

You Mother and Grandmother are responsible for teaching you the Faith and living a life that provides an example, ad praying for you…but they are not responsible for your personal choice not to accept Christianity.

I recommend they read through the Catechism (one with a good index that is easy to navigate) and try to find their answer there. If they are indeed fearful of damnation because they feel they have sinned in some way which resulted in your choice, they should speak with their respective confessors right away.

 

[exoflare]

Don’t waste time trying to proselytize, thanks.

That’s my line. (but seriously)

Anyway the last reply pretty much nailed it.

 

[Robertanthony]

I’m an atheist.

Don’t ban me yet! I’m not here to troll or deconvert anyone. I have a legitimate question about the Catholic faith in regards to my family.

My mother and grandmother are Catholic. I am not. My mother and grandmother both believe that because they failed to raise me as a Catholic, they are doomed to hell.

I want to know,

A.) Is this theologically sound, by Catholic doctrine? Do you consider them doomed to hell because I am not a Catholic or even any type of Christian?

B.) If this is not theologically sound, what are some good faith-based arguments I can present to them to convince them? They’ve resisted the argument of, “God punishing you for my personal choice would be fundamentally sick. A loving god would not do such a thing.”

This is causing my family emotional harm, and I wish to resolve it.

Thanks.

PS: Don’t waste time trying to proselytize, thanks. If you folks are willing to tolerate blasphemous heathens like myself hanging around I might be willing to debate, but I mainly just want this question answered.

Bye!

Ok, define “they failed to raise me as a Catholic”. You weren’t baptized, no 1st communion, no weekly mass attendance?

 

[R_C]

You display a rather profound understanding of God when you say this:

They’ve resisted the argument of, “God punishing you for my personal choice would be fundamentally sick. A loving god would not do such a thing.”

There you have it. It’s not your fault if they do not understand your sound answer, which is in line with Catholic teaching.

An informed Catholic would immediately accept this argument, because it is sound. An informed Catholic also knows that God is not bound to His sacrament, and that while there is no salvation outside of the Church, anyone who does God’s will to the best of their ability can be saved through Christ in mysterious ways that make them members of the Church, although not formally.

Finally, to presume that one is doomed to Hell is a grave sin against the Holy Spirit called sin of despair. Mention this to them and they will stop. They are at greater risk for this way of thinking than for whatever choices they made in your education, because ultimately you have free will and may one day find God if you open up to the possibility that He may exist, but they are already displaying distrust in God and in His divine providence, and that is a grave sin.

Also, to ease their suffering for your lack of faith, remind them of John 6:44 and John 6:65:

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him

I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him

P.s.: we don’t bite People are banned when they display very disruptive behavior, not because of their religion We long for non-Catholics to post and ask out whatever is on their minds, as long as this is done with the spirit of understanding

 

[Doxus]

I was baptized, and I did have first communion.

The main failure I think my mother feels is that I did not attend Catholic ceremonies regularly throughout my childhood. She and my father (who is Lutheran) divorced when I was 3. My mother remarried fairly quickly, without getting an annulment first (it was denied for some reason). Without that sacrament she did not feel comfortable going to church, so I was only exposed to Lutheran ceremonies for 2-3 months a year until I was around 8, at which point she did get manage to get an annulment and was remarried “in the church” to my step-dad, and I attended church regularly from age 8 to 13.

By age 11, though, I was more or less an atheist, and after a couple years I stopped going to church. Lutheran bible camp during ages 14-15 briefly kindled some spirituality, but reason prevailed over dogma.

As I understand, her not taking me to church between ages 3 and 8 was not her fault except indirectly, from the church refusing to give her an annulment until five years after the fact, which led her to believe she was living sinfully, which led her to feel she was not worthy of attending church. I don’t know how much of that is theologically correct either.

She did what she thought was the right thing, and that’s what matters. Should she be damned to eternal torment for choosing an imperfect path through difficult times? Fortunately, there is no hell and no Jesus to condemn her to it. But the emotional torment it is causing her is real, and based solely on obscure aspects of Catholic theology.

I get the feeling from other posts on here (other sections) that many will blame her for divorcing my father in the first place. I think that’s an immoral stance to take, forcing people to be in an unhappy marriage which has lost its emotional, financial, and potentially “spiritual” anchors.

 

[Robertanthony]

I was baptized, and I did have first communion.

The main failure I think my mother feels is that I did not attend Catholic ceremonies regularly throughout my childhood. She and my father (who is Lutheran) divorced when I was 3. My mother remarried fairly quickly, without getting an annulment first (it was denied for some reason). Without that sacrament she did not feel comfortable going to church, so I was only exposed to Lutheran ceremonies for 2-3 months a year until I was around 8, at which point she did get manage to get an annulment and was remarried “in the church” to my step-dad, and I attended church regularly from age 8 to 13.

By age 11, though, I was more or less an atheist, and after a couple years I stopped going to church. Lutheran bible camp during ages 14-15 briefly kindled some spirituality, but reason prevailed over dogma.

As I understand, her not taking me to church between ages 3 and 8 was not her fault except indirectly, from the church refusing to give her an annulment until five years after the fact, which led her to believe she was living sinfully, which led her to feel she was not worthy of attending church. I don’t know how much of that is theologically correct either.

She did what she thought was the right thing, and that’s what matters. Should she be damned to eternal torment for choosing an imperfect path through difficult times? Fortunately, there is no hell and no Jesus to condemn her to it. But the emotional torment it is causing her is real, and based solely on obscure aspects of Catholic theology.

I get the feeling from other posts on here (other sections) that many will blame her for divorcing my father in the first place. I think that’s an immoral stance to take, forcing people to be in an unhappy marriage which has lost its emotional, financial, and potentially “spiritual” anchors.

Ok basic Catholic theology. Mortal sin UNREPENTED sends one to hell. If whatever she thinks she did wrong (which doesn’t necessarily mean it was really wrong), she duly confessed in a confessional, then the sin, whatever its gravity or whether it exists or not, IS forgiven. Now for a sin to be mortal, three conditions must be present:

1. grave matter ( is specified by the Ten Commandments. One must take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in self graver than a complete stranger.)
2. full knowledge of evil of act (It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law)

3-full consent of the will (it has to be deliberate)

I’m just giving you all this info, but she didn’t commit a mortal sin, I don’t even know whther or not it was even a sin, whatever it was, God forgot it*, as it were. Don’t worry people will say lots of things, I’m not a judge but she does sound like someone who did the best she could in what were not the easiest circumstances. For whatever she thinks she did wrong, she has received forgiveness, whether or not she FEELS forgiven is a moot point, she IS forgiven. People grow up and make decisions for themselves, not all children of good Catholics grow up to become Catholics themselves. Hope this helps.

*Isaiah 43:25

 

[R_C]

I get the feeling from other posts on here (other sections) that many will blame her for divorcing my father in the first place. I think that’s an immoral stance to take, forcing people to be in an unhappy marriage which has lost its emotional, financial, and potentially “spiritual” anchors.

Don’t assume things and build castles out of thin air. The Church does consent to separation, but does not accept divorce because of what it does to society: it gives the idea that there is no real need to marry in first place - everyone can just pick a partner, enjoy the time, and when things don’t work anymore, dump him/her and find a new partner. It stops people from finding solutions to problems, and from accepting responsibility for the shared life they chose to live and for their children. Emotional and finantial motives, that is, selfish reasons, would determine the outcome of the relationship. Wait, isn’t this what we see more and more often in the world? Hmm. Talk about immorality.

but reason prevailed over dogma.

Fortunately, there is no hell and no Jesus to condemn her to it.

See, this is what I meant by disruptive behavior.

To begin with, it’s your opinion that “reason prevailed over dogma”. To be an atheist is a faith in itself, an act of the will, a choice. I can understand an agnostic who says: I cannot believe in God because I do not have enough to be convinced of His existence. But to hear a member of the atheist religion claim that it is rational to not believe in God is disturbing, because it is a very subtle form of proselytizing: telling people that to be reasonable is to not believe. We have, thankfully, had many great minds throughout history who were also great believers.

As for the “there is no hell and no Jesus”, I do not find it as awful as the “fortunately”, which reveals your joyful dwelling in your faith, rather than a rational, objective attitude towards the supernatural.

If there were no hell, that is, no eternal place of punishment, then I would immediately cease to believe in justice. Because I have seen very powerful and wealthy people live great lives at the expenses of the sufferings and death of others, and if there is such thing as an objective justice, then these persons must pay a price for the sufferings and evils they have caused.

On the other hand, you are right when you say: “there is no Jesus to condemn her”. But if you remove the last three words, you are gravely erroneous.

Stick to the thread and the question if you seek understanding and want answers. It is not proper or gracious to visit someone to ask for advice and all the while insult him.

 

[Doxus]

I apologize for causing offense. I did not know stating my opinion as such would be considered disruptive. Most atheist forums do not consider it offensive or disruptive to say “God loves you” or such. I’ll try to keep your standard in mind.

I don’t think it’s fair to call it proselytizing. Proselytizing is the actual intentional effort to win someone over to your way of thinking. If simply exposing someone to different opinions is considered proselytization… Well, I don’t know what to say to that.

 

[Doxus]

I do thank you all for your knowledge and opinions on this, I’ll have a chat with my mother next time I visit; I don’t think a conversation like this one should be had over the phone.

 

[Robert_Caritas]

Yeah I agree with R_C. Just be a bit careful, like you’re in another culture.

And with the reason vs dogma thing you are just begging for a debate, as Catholicism has a long history of not seeing reason and dogma as being opposed, but in complimentarity. Some of the greatest philosophers and scientists in history held this position.

In any case, as others have pointed out, as long as your mother and grandmother have gone to confession and repented for their past sins they are fine. You have your own free will and they can’t be responsible for your decisions past a certain point.

 

[R_C]

I apologize for causing offense. I did not know stating my opinion as such would be considered disruptive. Most atheist forums do not consider it offensive or disruptive to say “God loves you” or such. I’ll try to keep your standard in mind.

I don’t think it’s fair to call it proselytizing. Proselytizing is the actual intentional effort to win someone over to your way of thinking. If simply exposing someone to different opinions is considered proselytization… Well, I don’t know what to say to that.

Ok, I am sorry, I fell onto my own vanity and made the mistake of judging your intention. You are right, but unfortunately so many use this reasoning as a means for proselytization that it has become instinctive to act on it

There is a huge difference, btw, on me saying “God loves you” and you saying “fortunately there is no Jesus” because the former is an expression of love, and the latter of its absence, since for me Jesus is life, love, and hope.

Often people in love tell each other they love each other when they are only mutually attracted, or even simply to display strong affection or friendship. The nonexistence of actual love does not make its offering less beautiful. On the other hand, I’d be very upset (and I am, believe me) if/when someone says that God hates this/that person for reasons x,y,z. That’s nonsense, and very bad.

(Btw I removed some extra remarks that sounded like my own subconscious attempt to win you over )

 

[Doxus]

Ok, I am sorry, I fell onto my own vanity and made the mistake of judging your intention. You are right, but unfortunately so many use this reasoning as a means for proselytization that it has become instinctive to act on it

There is a huge difference, btw, on me saying “God loves you” and you saying “fortunately there is no Jesus” because the former is an expression of love, and the latter of its absence, since for me Jesus is life, love, and hope.

Often people in love tell each other they love each other when they are only mutually attracted, or even simply to display strong affection or friendship. The nonexistence of actual love does not make its offering less beautiful. On the other hand, I’d be very upset (and I am, believe me) if/when someone says that God hates this/that person for reasons x,y,z. That’s nonsense, and very bad.

(Btw I removed some extra remarks that sounded like my own subconscious attempt to win you over )

When you say “God loves you”, you feel compassion and joy. I hear condescension and empty platitudes.

When I say, “There is no god”, I’m stating reality as I see it*. You hear rejection of love.

We stand on vastly different ground. I’ll try to stay civil and not offend, I hope you’ll forgive me if I make a misstep now and then.

*Hyperbolically; you cannot absolutely disprove a non-falsifiable concept, of course.

 

[R_C]

Not as different as you think. We just see more or less things according to what we are open to seeing and to the understanding we have of reality I was just telling someone today: if something good and unexplainable happens to me that I had been praying for, surely someone will say that I was lucky and someone else that it was just a coincidence I’m not special, nobody is: I believe because I have seen, period. But thank you for being understanding and for the intellectual honesty displayed in your note.

And I don’t feel compassion, because to me it is a logical conclusion: if I believe by an act of faith that God = the fullness of love, then logically God loves everyone And there is definitely no condescension, since on the other hand I learn day after day just how ignorant I am and how much others know. In fact, I was moved to tell you right away that you had displayed an understanding of God’s nature that I myself lacked for a long time. But I’d be happy even if someone told me: that poor wretched creature loves you, because we cannot give anything greater than love, it’s our most intimate possession, and the one we long for the most, or at least I think so

 

[carn]

To stay at topic, tell your mother and your grandmother that if they think they did something sinful (e.g. not spending enough effort to teach you, which at least could be sinful), they should go to confession. If they truly regret what they did or omitted to do, it will be forgiven due to confession.

And if their action or non-action was not sinful at all, the priest is going to say so.

Remind them that even one of the thieves crucified with Jesus received forgiveness by regretting his own actions and acknowledging Jesus.

The only unforgiveable sin is unwilligness to regret ones sins and to ask for forgiveness.

(Yes, even militant atheism can be forgiven, if there is some regret to have cast God in ones own mind as some galactic stalinistic dictator, although one lacked the knowledge to truly and correctly evaluate all the practical and moral complications of universe creation, eternal existance, omnipotence, omniscience and so on and thereby denied God in ones own mind what one demands of him - some sort of “fair” evaluation or trial.)

 

[Zooey]

OK. I am neither Catholic,nor an unbeliever. I am a United Methodist.
Honestly, my first reaction to your thread has been: How terribly sad, that your relatives are beating themselves up over something that it was outside their power to do.
After all, we are, all of us, radically free to make decisions in our own hearts & minds as what we believe & how we are to live. That being simply a fact, it would seem to me that whatever your mother (& others) may have done (or left undone), that YOU were the one who made the choice.
We are all only human. We have no power to “make” other folks believe as we do. To blame herself for your choices & beliefs?? Your mom is not so powerful. (Neither am I; neither is anyone else).
I would be happy to have you tell her what I have just said, if yoy think it might help her. Really, it comes down to the fact that we are born with the will to choose. That’s how it works. No parent could possibly do any more than it is humanly possible to do.

I hope that makes something resembling sense.

 

[steve_b]

I was baptized, and I did have first communion.

The main failure I think my mother feels is that I did not attend Catholic ceremonies regularly throughout my childhood. She and my father (who is Lutheran) divorced when I was 3. My mother remarried fairly quickly, without getting an annulment first (it was denied for some reason). Without that sacrament she did not feel comfortable going to church, so I was only exposed to Lutheran ceremonies for 2-3 months a year until I was around 8, at which point she did get manage to get an annulment and was remarried “in the church” to my step-dad, and I attended church regularly from age 8 to 13.

By age 11, though, I was more or less an atheist, and after a couple years I stopped going to church. Lutheran bible camp during ages 14-15 briefly kindled some spirituality, but reason prevailed over dogma.

As I understand, her not taking me to church between ages 3 and 8 was not her fault except indirectly, from the church refusing to give her an annulment until five years after the fact, which led her to believe she was living sinfully, which led her to feel she was not worthy of attending church. I don’t know how much of that is theologically correct either.

She did what she thought was the right thing, and that’s what matters. Should she be damned to eternal torment for choosing an imperfect path through difficult times? Fortunately, there is no hell and no Jesus to condemn her to it. But the emotional torment it is causing her is real, and based solely on obscure aspects of Catholic theology.

I get the feeling from other posts on here (other sections) that many will blame her for divorcing my father in the first place. I think that’s an immoral stance to take, forcing people to be in an unhappy marriage which has lost its emotional, financial, and potentially “spiritual” anchors.

• Your mom got an annulment. She is free to marry.
• All the sin that happened prior to that and after that, the guilt and blame can be eliminated by sacramental confession.

Seems your mom can put her mind at ease for what she has done, by going to confession. She will always be a part of your life…right? I’m sure she’s praying for you.