H
Holly3278
Guest
I don’t raise my hands and as far as I know, nobody else does either.
- Status
P
PJR
Guest
Evidently. Have you ever heard “I don’t know whether to S*** or go blind?”
So here’s how I figure it after reading copious amounts of materials in the last 2 days.
Windmill has some good points about not copying priestly gestures or joining in on what he is supposed to say alone.
As of yet the USCCB has not endorsed or rejected any particular posture of prayer during the Our Father.
Hand holding has a few legitimate liturgical arguments both pro and con. I can see both sides.
Innovations can lead to abuses without a sensible adherence to the GIRM as determined by the Bishop of your diocese.
I checked out this site Traditionalist & Schismatic Catholics because it was recommend by mods to someone else. I found this interesting…
The hyper-dogmatism often observed in the insufficiently-converted Catholic fundamentalist/“traditionalist” is a combination of both the private judgment principle and (usually) some sort of radical, profound psychological insecurity (characteristic of many anti-Catholics as well).
To truly understand and convert to magisterial, orthodox Catholicism would be the end of such nonsense and over-reliance on and extreme overconfidence in one’s own opinions. After all, Catholicism has real authority: popes, councils, bishops, catechisms . . . So the Catholic fundamentalist ends up being a typical “cafeteria Catholic.” This is why I’ve always argued that both Catholic liberalism and “traditionalism” have the same liberal root of “pick-and-choose” and private judgment: the deadly combination of what is worst in both liberal theology and Protestantism (insofar as it is heretical and non-Catholic).
It’s like Communism and Naziism. If you go too far left or right on the political spectrum, you come around full circle: it is a matter of extremes vs. the “center” (orthodoxy). So the further right one goes theologically or ecclesiologically or in their formal principles of authority, the further left they also go. Liberals question the pope’s judgment and authority; so do Catholic fundamentalist/“traditionalists.”
The liberals/modernists/so-called “progressives” want to de-sacralize the Mass by trivializing it, messing with the language and promoting mediocrity in liturgy, music, and architecture; the fundamentalist/“traditionalists” want to butcher it by denying that the Novus Ordo Mass is valid or vastly inferior to the Tridentine Mass; thus denying indefectibility.
One camp is nominalistic and spiritually bankrupt; the other is prideful, legalistic, and has lost faith in the guidance of Holy Mother Church by the Holy Spirit. The liberals are against sound reason and rationality (cf. Francis Schaeffer: Escape From Reason); so are the fundamentalist/“traditionalists.” Both factions lack faith and spiritual vision.
It all comes out basically the same in the wash. One is either orthodox or extreme, and the extremes tend to meet and have common ground, as a result of their fringe nature. Orthodoxy is like the center of the earth (or perhaps the equator). Liberalism and “traditionalism” are akin to the north and south poles; they are a world apart geographically but there isn’t a whole lot of difference between them in terms of climate and landscape.
UnworthySoul:
So here’s how I figure it after reading copious amounts of materials in the last 2 days.
Windmill has some good points about not copying priestly gestures or joining in on what he is supposed to say alone.
As of yet the USCCB has not endorsed or rejected any particular posture of prayer during the Our Father.
Hand holding has a few legitimate liturgical arguments both pro and con. I can see both sides.
Innovations can lead to abuses without a sensible adherence to the GIRM as determined by the Bishop of your diocese.
I checked out this site Traditionalist & Schismatic Catholics because it was recommend by mods to someone else. I found this interesting…
The hyper-dogmatism often observed in the insufficiently-converted Catholic fundamentalist/“traditionalist” is a combination of both the private judgment principle and (usually) some sort of radical, profound psychological insecurity (characteristic of many anti-Catholics as well).
To truly understand and convert to magisterial, orthodox Catholicism would be the end of such nonsense and over-reliance on and extreme overconfidence in one’s own opinions. After all, Catholicism has real authority: popes, councils, bishops, catechisms . . . So the Catholic fundamentalist ends up being a typical “cafeteria Catholic.” This is why I’ve always argued that both Catholic liberalism and “traditionalism” have the same liberal root of “pick-and-choose” and private judgment: the deadly combination of what is worst in both liberal theology and Protestantism (insofar as it is heretical and non-Catholic).
It’s like Communism and Naziism. If you go too far left or right on the political spectrum, you come around full circle: it is a matter of extremes vs. the “center” (orthodoxy). So the further right one goes theologically or ecclesiologically or in their formal principles of authority, the further left they also go. Liberals question the pope’s judgment and authority; so do Catholic fundamentalist/“traditionalists.”
The liberals/modernists/so-called “progressives” want to de-sacralize the Mass by trivializing it, messing with the language and promoting mediocrity in liturgy, music, and architecture; the fundamentalist/“traditionalists” want to butcher it by denying that the Novus Ordo Mass is valid or vastly inferior to the Tridentine Mass; thus denying indefectibility.
One camp is nominalistic and spiritually bankrupt; the other is prideful, legalistic, and has lost faith in the guidance of Holy Mother Church by the Holy Spirit. The liberals are against sound reason and rationality (cf. Francis Schaeffer: Escape From Reason); so are the fundamentalist/“traditionalists.” Both factions lack faith and spiritual vision.
It all comes out basically the same in the wash. One is either orthodox or extreme, and the extremes tend to meet and have common ground, as a result of their fringe nature. Orthodoxy is like the center of the earth (or perhaps the equator). Liberalism and “traditionalism” are akin to the north and south poles; they are a world apart geographically but there isn’t a whole lot of difference between them in terms of climate and landscape.
1
1yellow_rose
Guest
While adoremus may be a very good Catholic site, I will take the USCCB over it.
How do I know if the comment from adoremus should have been removed?
The bottom line is that neither were removed, and the USCCB site is the official US liturgical site.
1
1yellow_rose
Guest
Amen
Also to repeat for those who ridicule others, including ministers who carry the Book of Gospels elevated as is instructed–
Discussion & disagrement is fine—Ridicule is against Christianity, and quite possibly sinful.
N
netmilsmom
Guest
1yellow rose:
Which one of these posters is ridiculing Christianity?
1
1yellow_rose
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
I can’t believe you posted this. I said “Ridicule is against Christianity” I did not say you ridiculed Christianity. Can you understand??
Ridiculing anyone is against Christianity.
1
1yellow_rose
Guest
And what would you call this??
Pariah Pirana:
Pariah Pirana:
1
1yellow_rose
Guest
or this
netmil(name removed by moderator):
netmil(name removed by moderator):
And then there were those who ridiculed ministers for carrying the Book of Gospels elevated as they were instructed.
N
netmilsmom
Guest
1yellow rose:
Um, I never said that you did. I was asking who you were refering to.
Your posts make me Mysty.
S
sconea
Guest
Posted this elsewhere…but I was told by a priest once, that our disposition during Mass should be “the disposition of Mary at the foot of the cross.” All I can picture is Mary’s folded hands in the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe.
The Mass is “the sacrifice of Calvary”…not a community supper.
This holding hands up, or holding hands during the Our Father was never seen in Catholic Churches before the 70’s. I had thought it came in with the charismatic movement and that those who do this are charismatics…but apparently this is not so and others besides charismatics do this. It appears to be imitating the priest. I notice even deacons and concelebrating priests do NOT use this gesture while on the altar. Should our position imitate the priest if they don’t?
I, too, would like to know when and why people chose to start doing this. Were they told to by someone, imitating others, charismatics etc??..I’ve see some people say it is from the early church, but it certainly has not been the tradition for centuries…so why now?
Personally, I don’t care if others do this, but I do not like to be forced…speaking of the handholding part, I have been rebuffed many times at the ‘sign of peace’ for refusing to hold hands during the Our Father…strange reaction for so-called christians. Handholding makes me feel like I’m at ‘summer camp.’
The Mass is “the sacrifice of Calvary”…not a community supper.
This holding hands up, or holding hands during the Our Father was never seen in Catholic Churches before the 70’s. I had thought it came in with the charismatic movement and that those who do this are charismatics…but apparently this is not so and others besides charismatics do this. It appears to be imitating the priest. I notice even deacons and concelebrating priests do NOT use this gesture while on the altar. Should our position imitate the priest if they don’t?
I, too, would like to know when and why people chose to start doing this. Were they told to by someone, imitating others, charismatics etc??..I’ve see some people say it is from the early church, but it certainly has not been the tradition for centuries…so why now?
Personally, I don’t care if others do this, but I do not like to be forced…speaking of the handholding part, I have been rebuffed many times at the ‘sign of peace’ for refusing to hold hands during the Our Father…strange reaction for so-called christians. Handholding makes me feel like I’m at ‘summer camp.’
N
netmilsmom
Guest
1yellow rose:
Those posts don’t even “ridicule” people, it points out the strange things they do.
Just because my daughter takes a cookie, I would not call her a thief.
In the same way, just because people do strange things does not make them bad, just misguided.
Okay, let me ask again. Which one of these is ridiculing Christianity?
Those posts don’t even “ridicule” people, it points out the strange things they do.
Just because my daughter takes a cookie, I would not call her a thief.
In the same way, just because people do strange things does not make them bad, just misguided.
T
TeriGator
Guest
The whole argument that the orans position or praying the Our Father while holding hands with your neighbors is coming from “the people” as an “organic” expression faith just does not work. If this were the case, there would not be so many of the people dead set against it. It is more of the legacy of the 60’s and 70’s, which also gifted us with liturgical dance and nuns giving homilies. :bigyikes:
I find myself in a real quandary each Sunday. I personally do not agree with the hand-holding, but my kids will grab my hands every time, and they grab their neighbors’ as well. The entire church does this, and I am not sure how to handle it. While I agree that it is not a legitimate gesture for the congregation, and I resent the fact that I am expected to do this, I also find it difficult to tell my kids to be the only ones not to do it. Call me weak, if you will.
I find myself in a real quandary each Sunday. I personally do not agree with the hand-holding, but my kids will grab my hands every time, and they grab their neighbors’ as well. The entire church does this, and I am not sure how to handle it. While I agree that it is not a legitimate gesture for the congregation, and I resent the fact that I am expected to do this, I also find it difficult to tell my kids to be the only ones not to do it. Call me weak, if you will.
1
1yellow_rose
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Ridicule of anyone (those people whose worship posture you ridicule by comparing to football plays or carrying surfboards) is uncharitable behavior. Any uncharitable behavior is against Christianity.
Do you understand yet?
You and your like minds are ridiculing people in their worship. This is not charitable behavior.
Ridicule of anyone (those people whose worship posture you ridicule by comparing to football plays or carrying surfboards) is uncharitable behavior. Any uncharitable behavior is against Christianity.
Do you understand yet?
1
1yellow_rose
Guest
I have seen Mary depicted many ways at the foot of the Cross. I sincerely doubt her hands were folded—this wasn’t even a prayer posture at that time.
.
Again this is how it appears to YOU Do you have any official liturgical documentation?
I agree that no one should force their preferences on others, even norms, such as the sign of peace. We are instructed to offer and receive the sign of peace in the local manner, but if someone doesn’t wish to shake hands, I wouldn’t grab their hand.
Another unnecessary comment which is not a nice attitude toward fellow Christians and really contributes nothing of fact.
J
judicame
Guest
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, the Orans gesture traditionally has quite a specific meaning:
I’ve seen the accusation of Pride levelled at traditional Catholics before. I have to say I find it a very strange accusation for one man to level at another; more so than accusing someone else of the sin of ridicule. Are we qualified to judge the conscience of others in this way?
Is it a worthy replacement for the humble personal devotion lost during the 1960s and 70s?
Unusual looking site. Some perspectives and presumptions I have not seen before. I will have to take a closer look when I get the chance.
I’ve seen the accusation of Pride levelled at traditional Catholics before. I have to say I find it a very strange accusation for one man to level at another; more so than accusing someone else of the sin of ridicule. Are we qualified to judge the conscience of others in this way?
F
fix
Guest
1yellow rose:
The Sacramentary revision, however, was not only replaced by the new Roman Missal, but it was officially and specifically rejected by the Holy See after the new Missal appeared.
N
netmilsmom
Guest
Wow!According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, the Orans gesture traditionally has quite a specific meaning:
Is it a worthy replacement for the humble personal devotion lost during the 1960s and 70s?
Unusual looking site. Some perspectives and presumptions I have not seen before. I will have to take a closer look when I get the chance.
I’ve seen the accusation of Pride levelled at traditional Catholics before. I have to say I find it a very strange accusation for one man to level at another; more so than accusing someone else of the sin of ridicule. Are we qualified to judge the conscience of others in this way?
Great site! I have to bookmark it! Good catch!
N
netmilsmom
Guest
1yellow rose:
Each is stating a distain for an action. Like Clown Masses. The people at the Clown Mass may well be as spiritual as the Pope. It doesn’t mean that it is not strange.
Just because you really like a posture that is not stated in the Rubics, doesn’t mean that it is perfect for the Holy Mass. Juggling and BBQing are not stated either, but they are not appropriate.
Show me where it is stated that holding hands at the Our Father is encouraged by the Rubics and I’m sure everyone here will think differently.
Not a single person here is ridiculing people. Unlike you who called me…" “rude, infantile, agressive, obnoxious and a person who is not a good Christian”
Each is stating a distain for an action. Like Clown Masses. The people at the Clown Mass may well be as spiritual as the Pope. It doesn’t mean that it is not strange.
Just because you really like a posture that is not stated in the Rubics, doesn’t mean that it is perfect for the Holy Mass. Juggling and BBQing are not stated either, but they are not appropriate.
Show me where it is stated that holding hands at the Our Father is encouraged by the Rubics and I’m sure everyone here will think differently.
1
1yellow_rose
Guest
Show me where anyone said it was encouraged.
I never said it was encouraged. I just said it is not forbidden, and do not ridicule those who use it. There is no posture prescribed, and when questioned directly the USCCB site did not condemn it.
You do not like it—fine do not do it.
And you certainly did ridicule people who use postures which you do not like, even specifically legitimate ones (such as elevating the Book of Gospels).
I never said it was encouraged. I just said it is not forbidden, and do not ridicule those who use it. There is no posture prescribed, and when questioned directly the USCCB site did not condemn it.
You do not like it—fine do not do it.
And you certainly did ridicule people who use postures which you do not like, even specifically legitimate ones (such as elevating the Book of Gospels).
N
netmilsmom
Guest
1yellow rose:
As for the elevating of the Book of Gospels, you are mistaking me for another poster. You do that.
Lots of things are not forbidden. When my daughter says that I never SAID not to start a fire in the backyard, I tell her that just because I didn’t specifically state an action is wrong, doesn’t make it right.
While I stated the strangeness of a posture, not the people using them, you specifically called me…“rude, infantile, agressive, obnoxious and not a good Christian.” Hmmmmm.
As for the elevating of the Book of Gospels, you are mistaking me for another poster. You do that.
- Status