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fix
Guest
We see the legalistic progressive mind at work?
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fix
Guest
Holding Hands at Mass
Code:
Concerning holding hands in the Eucharistic Liturgy the Congregation for Divine Worship in Rome responded as follows:
QUERY: In some places there is a current practice whereby those taking part in the Mass replace the giving of the sign of peace at the deacon's invitation by holding hands during the singing of the Lord's Prayer. Is this acceptable? REPLY: The prolonged holding of hands is of itself a sign of communion rather than of peace. Further, it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics. Nor is there any clear explanation of why the sign of peace at the invitation: "Let us offer each other the sign of peace" should be supplanted in order to bring a different gesture with less meaning into another part of the Mass: the sign of peace is filled with meaning, graciousness, and Christian inspiration. Any substitution for it must be repudiated: Notitiae 11 (1975) 226. *Notitiae* is the journal of the Congregation in which its official interpretations of the rubrics are published.]
While this addresses the holding of hands at the Sign of Peace the reasons given apply also elsewhere in the Mass, including at the Our Father.
1) It is an inappropriate "sign," since Communion is the sign of intimacy. Thus, a gesture of intimacy is introduced both before the sign of reconciliation (the Sign of Peace), but more importantly, before Holy Communion, the sacramental sign of communion/intimacy within the People of God.
2) It is introduced on personal initiative. The Holy See has authority over the liturgy according to Vatican II's "Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy" #22 and canon 838 of the *Code of Canon Law*.
This gesture has come into widespread use, often leaving bishops and pastors at a loss as to how to reverse the situation. For individuals, I would recommend closed eyes and a prayerful posture as sufficient response, rather than belligerence. Most laity, and probably many priests, are blind to the liturgical significance of interrupting the flow of the Mass in this way. It is not necessary to lose one's peace over this or be an irritation to others. Some proportion is required. If asked why you don't participate, simply, plainly and charitably tell the questioner of your discovery. If some chance of changing the practice is possible talk to the pastor or work with other laity through the parish council. You can also write the bishop, as is your right in the case of any liturgical abuse not resolved at the parish level. If your judgment is that no change is possible then I believe you are excused from further fraternal correction.
Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL
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netmilsmom
Guest
Oh NOT to me!!!
Nor Dancing Girls, nor socializing up the aisles for the “Handshake of Peace” nor anything else that someone wants to add!
I love this!
“For individuals, I would recommend closed eyes and a prayerful posture as sufficient response, rather than belligerence.”
Amen!
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dmelosi
Guest
We had a long good discussion on an earlier thread. I asked an apologist and received the following answer with references.
The Roman Missal does not allow for the faithful to raise their hands in the “orans” position (or hold hands) during Mass. Such posture is reserved for the priest.
Article 6:
§ 2. … In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers — e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology — or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant.”
ICP
Recommended reading:
About That Orans Posture
The Roman Missal does not allow for the faithful to raise their hands in the “orans” position (or hold hands) during Mass. Such posture is reserved for the priest.
Article 6:
§ 2. … In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers — e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology — or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant.”
ICP
Recommended reading:
About That Orans Posture
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katherine2
Guest
I think both fix and dmelosi are having problems with reading comprehesion. Their own citations betray them. We are not speaking of parts of the “liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest.” We are referrign the the Lord’s Prayer.
To fix, we are not talking about replacing the sign of peace with this action.
And to netmil(name removed by moderator), could you tell me where the rubrics allow you to hodl your daughter’s hand, as you do?
I this this case is closed.
To fix, we are not talking about replacing the sign of peace with this action.
And to netmil(name removed by moderator), could you tell me where the rubrics allow you to hodl your daughter’s hand, as you do?
I this this case is closed.
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dmelosi
Guest
I see that my post was not really very clear, my post is a quote from an apologist from Catholic Answers.
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katherine2
Guest
No problem. We are all busy and sometimes read things too quickly (weel, excpet for me, I’m retired so I have no excuse).
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
katherine, before you impugn the reading comprehension of others, perhaps you should more carefully scrutinize posts yourself.
The orans (raising hands) posture is proper to the priest and the priest alone during the “Our Father” in the Mass. You missed this line:
You might like the orans posture, and there is absolutely nothing in the world to prevent you from using it in your own personal devotions outside of Mass.
So tell me–why do you, personally, use the orans posture during the Our Father? I know that you were not “born” to it, in that prior to the 1970s you would not have used it at Mass–so, why did you start? And what would you consider sufficient grounds, or word, or authority, to make you stop?
The orans (raising hands) posture is proper to the priest and the priest alone during the “Our Father” in the Mass. You missed this line:
And, in fact, the priest himself does not maintain the orans straight through from the “our Father” to the end of the “for thine is the kingdom”, while those people in the congregation who use it keep their hands up all the way through. If they’re attempting to justify their use of the orans as being a gesture of “unity” with the priest, the fact that during some of the time they are emphatically NOT in union with the priest, gesture-wise, speaks volumes, doesn’t it?
You might like the orans posture, and there is absolutely nothing in the world to prevent you from using it in your own personal devotions outside of Mass.
So tell me–why do you, personally, use the orans posture during the Our Father? I know that you were not “born” to it, in that prior to the 1970s you would not have used it at Mass–so, why did you start? And what would you consider sufficient grounds, or word, or authority, to make you stop?
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katherine2
Guest
Tantum ergo:
I think you will find even very conservative folks admit that the line: "Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant.” pertains to gestures the priest makes for the parts that are proper to him alone. In fact, it is just such that the reference occurs.
I did, very carefully. I think you are still misreading it.
I don’t find that in any church document including the one you cited.
I think you will find even very conservative folks admit that the line: "Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant.” pertains to gestures the priest makes for the parts that are proper to him alone. In fact, it is just such that the reference occurs.
Then you are admitting it is not by its nature a priestly gesture.
it evolved so naturally that I can’t even date it for you.
A directive from the Holy See explaining why.
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netmilsmom
Guest
I wipe her nose sometimes too!!
I do not hold my daughter’s hand as part of the mass, I do it to keep her from being a disruption to the mass.
By your rational, you are all holding hands to keep each other from misbehaving!!!
I’d like to see your masses!!!
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netmilsmom
Guest
“Though we have called the “orans” position a novelty, any Catholic would notice that it is not something new. During the course of the Mass the priest often raises his hands and arms in the “orans” position, i.e. when the priest is directly addressing the Godhead on behalf of the Faithful in his proper role in persona Christi. There lies the first objection… Since this ritual position has always been reserved to the priest, extending it to the Faithful serves only to further diminish the high dignity of the Priesthood. It might be argued that since the Second Vatican Council abrogated the priest’s private recitation of the Our Father to include also the faithful, the ritual gesture should be shared as well. This fails to appreciate that the faithful “participate” in the Offering, they do not confect the Offering. This being said, it should be clear that any ritual gesture that is strictly priestly should remain strictly priestly --lest the distinction between the priest and the faithful be weakened…”
christifideles.org/excelsis-askfather.html
Although it is said that the Blessed Mother (disproven) and the priest do this, preserving the high dignity of the Priesthood may well be in order.
If my four year old stamped her foot and told me that she will be mean (i.e. disrepect) someone because she can, I would understand that this is a sign of her immaturity. Even though that disrespect is something that I do not want her to do and it is not right for the other person, she CAN do it.
Because one can does not make it right.
christifideles.org/excelsis-askfather.html
Although it is said that the Blessed Mother (disproven) and the priest do this, preserving the high dignity of the Priesthood may well be in order.
If my four year old stamped her foot and told me that she will be mean (i.e. disrepect) someone because she can, I would understand that this is a sign of her immaturity. Even though that disrespect is something that I do not want her to do and it is not right for the other person, she CAN do it.
Because one can does not make it right.
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katherine2
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
Correct. it is an ancient practice going back to the Jews, and not reserved to either the priests or levites, but by the Hebrew people at prayer. Our Blessed Mother was a Hebrew.
The priest raises his hands and arms in this way when he offers prayer. When he is doing this on behalf of the faithful, it would be inappropriate for the laity to follow him in this actions.
At other times, he does not pray directly and singlely on behalf of the faithful, but WITH the faithful. One of these occassions is the Lord’s Prayer.
The faithful do not confect the great Offering on the altar. They do confect the offering of the prayer used by our Lord. It is the mind, soul and windpipes of the laity reciting this prayer.
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netmilsmom
Guest
Correct. it is an ancient practice going back to the Jews, and not reserved to either the priests or levites, but by the Hebrew people at prayer. Our Blessed Mother was a Hebrew.
You nor anyone else at the mass is the Blessed Mother or a Hebrew. It is easy to pick and choose the traditions you would like to keep. If you pray this way do you also follow the laws of Kosher? The laws of cleanliness? Our Blessed Mother did both.
katherine2:
The priest at this time is welcoming his flock to join him in prayer by assuming the orans position. The flock cannot do the same.
katherine2:
Who should be showing some respect for the Holy Eucharist on the Altar and bowing his/her head.
Humility, humility, humility.
Pro 16:18 Pride [goeth] before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
Pro 16:19 Better [it is to be] of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.
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katherine2
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
No. The orans position is not the priest waving his arms to say “y’all come”. That would not be reverent. It is a posture of prayer. That is why he maintains the position throughout the prayer.
Now you are introducing a new gesture not in the rubrics nor in tradition of bowing at the Lord’s Prayer. I thought that was what you claimed the probelm with the prayer position is. This is very puzzling.
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netmilsmom
Guest
The priest waves his arms at your church? At my church the priest is welcoming his flock to the word of God.
Okay, I’ll give you that bowing your head may be “introduction of a new gesture”. I won’t do it. But as I stated before with my four year old, she CAN do things. The orans position is not specifically stated in the GIRM so yes you can. As for me and mine, we will be humble before the Lord.
The Humble also shall increase their Joy in the Lord,
And the poor among men shall Rejoice
In The Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 29:19
And as St. Cyprian said, “When we pray, our words should be calm, modest and disciplined.” The same modesty and discipline should characterize our liturgical prayer as well" (Treatise on the Lord’s Prayer).
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Digitonomy
Guest
Tantum ergo:
As for keeping hands up continuously through the priest’s part, and then the doxology, I find that silly, but I have not heard the pros and cons discussed in detail, so I reserve judgement on whether it is proper for others to do this.
netmil(name removed by moderator):
If they do use it, they probably picked it up from the Christians and/or Jews.
I haven’t heard anyone claim that this is a gesture of “unity” with the priest. It is a gesture of prayer, at a time when the congregation is instructed to pray.
As for keeping hands up continuously through the priest’s part, and then the doxology, I find that silly, but I have not heard the pros and cons discussed in detail, so I reserve judgement on whether it is proper for others to do this.
netmil(name removed by moderator):
I did a Google search as well, but was unable to find any indication of what you say. My understanding was that Muslims pray prostrate on the ground. However, I don’t know all the details of the Muslim prayer ritual, so I would be interested in hearing more about this.
If they do use it, they probably picked it up from the Christians and/or Jews.
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netmilsmom
Guest
Do this search…“orans position Muslim prayer”
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PaulWeb
Guest
I paticipated in a Life in the Spirit seminar over two years ago. One of the leaders suggested that at the Our Father the hands not be raised, but that our arms be down, but the palms open forward. It was explained that this posture would be more of an attitude of supplication. No one else at my parish ( who attends early Sunday Mass like I do) uses this posture that I am aware of. Many do either raise their hands or join hands with their neighbors.
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OhioBob
Guest
I don’t want to opine on the pro’s and con’s of the Orans since this and countless other threads have already pummeled that lifeless horse quite handily. http://www.rocksmyfaceoff.net/forum/images/smiles/deadhorse.gif
In my own case, the question of whether the Orans is appropriate during the Lord’s Prayer has nothing to do with the position itself. Rather the issue is the institutionalization of a posture into the liturgy that is not specified in the rubrics.
Coincidently, our bishop has asked that all the faithful use the Orans during the Lord’s prayer as a sign of common prayer. I don’t particularly like it, but I do it since he instructed us to do so.
But my dislike of it is not because I feel silly (which I do) but because I feel that by mandating that posture he has added a requirement to the liturgy on his own initiative.
Whether Mary, Jesus or anyone else prayed in the Orans is not the point. They prayed in sandals too, but if our bishop prescribed that everyone needed to wear sandals when they prayed at mass as a sign of common prayer, I would consider that adding a requirement to the liturgy that is not prescribed in the rubrics.
In my own case, the question of whether the Orans is appropriate during the Lord’s Prayer has nothing to do with the position itself. Rather the issue is the institutionalization of a posture into the liturgy that is not specified in the rubrics.
Coincidently, our bishop has asked that all the faithful use the Orans during the Lord’s prayer as a sign of common prayer. I don’t particularly like it, but I do it since he instructed us to do so.
But my dislike of it is not because I feel silly (which I do) but because I feel that by mandating that posture he has added a requirement to the liturgy on his own initiative.
Whether Mary, Jesus or anyone else prayed in the Orans is not the point. They prayed in sandals too, but if our bishop prescribed that everyone needed to wear sandals when they prayed at mass as a sign of common prayer, I would consider that adding a requirement to the liturgy that is not prescribed in the rubrics.
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mgy100
Guest
IT IS WRONG!!
Period, it should be banned, it is disgusting. I was taught never to do it.
I’m going to a novus ordo mass tonight for ash wed, and I’m going to see if my brother does it. I caught my daughter with her hands up during the Pater Noster at my cousin’s baptism two weeks ago, she knows better. But probably all the kids at her parochial school do it during the kids mass.
Period, it should be banned, it is disgusting. I was taught never to do it.
I’m going to a novus ordo mass tonight for ash wed, and I’m going to see if my brother does it. I caught my daughter with her hands up during the Pater Noster at my cousin’s baptism two weeks ago, she knows better. But probably all the kids at her parochial school do it during the kids mass.
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