Raising Hands during Mass

[Jayson]

I am very very weary of all things charismatic.

“The Catholic Charismatic movement is Protestant in its origin, belief and practice. It began in 1967, seeking the ‘Pentecostal experience’ from Protestant groups - groups whose heretical beliefs place them under the solemn anathemas of the Council of Trent.” (Catholic Family News)

“The illusion of a free and charismatic Christianity does not build but demolishes. Many appeal to the Holy Spirit as if the Divine Paraclete were at their disposal at all times.” (Pope Pius IV)

“It attacks directly the very existence of the Church, leading to extinguishing the real flame of Pentecost, disregarding the thought of Christ and of the whole of Tradition.” (Pope Paul VI)

“Self-affirmed greatness in the realm of the holy is demonic.” (Paul Tillich, Systematic Theology)

“Some charismatics claim that their ‘special gifts’ are authentically Catholic - somehow the Church was corrupt for 1900 years and is now back to where it should be, thanks to them.” (Rev. Paul Trinchard, Apostasy Within)

 

[robertaf]

Greetings Netmi(name removed by moderator),
Ahhh you are so wrong.
The Lord brought me into the Catholic Church kicking and screaming. I had been extremely anti-Catholic, but that is a long story. Once I submitted and saw the errors and lies I had been raised with, I fell deeply in love with the Pre Vatican II Church. I took classes and learned the Faith, then continued with my training, loving that Ancient Church deeper and deeper as the years went by.
I was stung by the changes that happened at Vatican II. By this time, I had been a Catholic nearly a decade and was becoming educated in the faith and well on my way to my first stage of accreditation.
It was required, after Vatican II that I begin a new series of classes, working toward my Catechesis.
In time, I began teaching Church History, Bible History, and most Religion Classes. We were doing a great deal of work through the Diocese.

It was in the late 1960s when the Charismatic Renewal took off in the Church like a giant forest fire. God poured out His Holy Sprit in a wonderous new way but I was not ready for it. I hated it! As a Pre Vatican II Catholic, it was just too strange and the spontaneous prayer, the move toward Bible study, and the mmm demonstrative type of Praise and Worship looked a lot like the non Catholic Churches I had left for good. I can see why cradle Catholics would feel uncomfortable, I was, myself.

Once again, God dragged me kicking and screaming where He wanted me. That is a long story, too. It took years for me to understand why all of this happened and what God was preparing me for.

As a Charismatic Catholic, I have brought, through the power of the Holy Spirit over 100, fallen away Catholics back to Holy Mother Church.

I am God Mother to over 50 Baptized Catholics, former Protestants.

I have been evangelizing Catholics for over 30 years, bringing many to “Metanoia” or heart conversion. I have taught over 200 young people in preparation for the Sacrament of Confirmation.

This is not by my own power or skills, this is through the Holy Spirit and Him alone. I take no credit for anything. I fought Him most of the way.

I do know this Renewal is of God because I have seen the Fruits with my own eyes.

It is not good to suppose you know why folks are where they are, it is better to ask and know the truth.

 

[netmilsmom]

robertaf:
Well Roberta, I’m very glad for you.

God Bless.

 

[Primitive]

Another thing I was thinking was about Jesus…
I loathe when people join hands at the Our Father, especially as I have hinted before, when a member of the opposite sex is there and a moment of possible temptation.
There is shouldn’t be temptation like that during Mass especially during the Holy Sacrafice of the Mass.
One poster in this thread said “would Jesus refuse to hold someone’s hand…of course not” or something along those lines.
I absolutely believe he would refuse…why? Well, for the same reason as me…remember when Mary Magdalane came to Jesus in the tomb when He rose from the dead? When she tried to embrace Him, Jesus said not to touch Him because He had not yet Ascended to the Father…
In other words, if a pretty woman is next to me at Mass, it is MORE LOVING for her to leave me as I am and not tempt me than to try and show some sort of “fellowship” and think she needs to hold my hand so I feel like I am “part of something”…
In fact, if I was married, I wouldn’t even allow my wife to touch me at this time or during the Mass…because I’d love her enough to want her to be able to focus on what really matters…
Make sense?

 

[Lamb100]

I’ve been following this thread with interest and want to be careful what I say since it’s so emotional–which is good in a way because we all have such deep feelings for the Holy Mass–this is good! Roberta–I wouldn’t mind if folks just put out their hands to hold, leaving it optional–and goodness–I would certainly hold Jesus’ hand if He put it there–lol! But to have someone forcibly assault me–and that’s what it is–what that really is is truly not me being “holier than thou”–trust me–I have my own issues and that’s between me and God to work on, right?, as it is for all of us–but when someone does that, it appears that a) they really “know not what they are doing”, or b) they have prejudged those of us who don’t go along with the hand-holding as “rigid and judgmental”. I believe it’s often the latter because that’s currently what’s dividing the churches in our town. In fact, one of the RCIA leaders said it was her job to “wean people away from those things” (i.e, pious devotions such as genuflecting to receive Communion). How is this not unbridled arrogance and outright bullying?
About the charismatic gifts, I can see pros and cons…I was part of a renewal group that emphasized the Holy Spirit–it seems to bear much fruit in people’s lives and bring them to Jesus so I can’t criticize much, but in many ways it doesn’t seem very Catholic, and in a parish that is suffering from years of poor Catholic catechesis, it may not be a very good trend–just my opinion. It didn’t really work for me. That being said and this is a BIG IF! my conversion to Catholicism involved the Holy Spirit in a big way–my confirmation was an unexpected baptism of the Holy Spirit–a really elemental, mystical physical force–unexplainable and wonderful, accompanied by, at least a few days earlier, the gift of tongues (at least in my own personal prayer, not publicly). So…I do believe and heed the warnings given the Church by the Popes–the temptations to pride are huge. But the Scriptures do give witness to the gifts of the Spirit. I guess we need to be humble and keep them in perspective–and remember that St. Paul did say that some of the gifts are greater–and the “showier” ones–like tongues–are not among the greater ones.

Just my two cents! So I see both sides. I do see a place for the Charismatic movement in Christianity, though, since I’m a part of it, by God’s grace.

In His love
Lamb

 

[robertaf]

Primitive,

Would you mind if I ask how old you are? Just curious.

By the way, it is not because of temptation that Jesus did not allow Mary Magdaline to touch him. Remember, he was tempted in the desert by Satan, himself. He was tempted through his life in every single way that we have ever been tempted but did not sin.

There were other reasons Jesus didn’t allow her to embrace Him.

I have been married to my husband for 50 years and very often hold hands through most of Mass. We are Sacramentally one person. We have been joined in marriage byGod and we even receive Communion as a couple, side by side, just as we did on our wedding day. We sit during Mass with my son, daughter in law and my four grandchildren. We are a close and openly affectionate family. The children often hold each others hands or one of the parents or grandparents. The daughter in law and all 4 grandchildren are also my God Children. We are fully united in Christ.

I do hope that one day, if you are called to marriage to have this sort of union. I would not trade it for anything.

This has never come between any of us and the Lord, if anything, because we pray together, fast together share scripture together, we are much closer to the Sacraments and particularly the Holy Eucharist than if we were more distant.

 

[robertaf]

-…-which is good in a way because we all have such deep feelings for the Holy Mass–this is good! Roberta–I wouldn’t mind if folks just put out their hands to hold, leaving it optional–and goodness–I would certainly hold Jesus’ hand if He put it there–lol! But to have someone forcibly assault me–and that’s what it is–…–I have my own issues and that’s between me and God to work on, right?, as it is for all of us–but when someone does that, it appears that a) they really “know not what they are doing”, or b) they have prejudged those of us who don’t go along with the hand-holding as “rigid and judgmental”…

No one should ever assault a person during Mass (or any other time). There are many folks in our parish who choose not to hold hands and that is ok by me and mine. Like I have said over and over, whatever increases your adoration and worship is the important thing.

I have posted how it increases MY adoration and worship and the feelings and reasons behind it for me. This is not to change anyones mind, I don’t think that will happen here, but to increase understanding of each other. It is through understanding, love and respect that these things get solved and healing takes place.

I do encourage folks to try to understand each other and be charitable. We are called to be Christlike, afterall.

I would ask one thing of folks. I have had my grandchildren hurt and bewildered when they reach out to shake hands with someone during the sign of peace and be completely rejected. One woman almost shouting, “No, don’t touch me!” Civil people do not treat each other like that away from Church. In fact, I would be highly insulted if anyone refused to shake my hand in a worldly situation, Christian or not. It simply is not done. It speaks of terrible manners. Why then would a person refuse in Church and to a small child? I do think this is carrying personal feelings on these things too far.

Don’t you?

 

[sconea]

“no”…the children should be taught that holding hands is not required and that not everyone feels comfortable or wants to. If the children are taught this…then they won’t have their feelings hurt.

 

[robertaf]

Thank you for such an honest answer.

 

[Primitive]

robertaf:

Primitive,

Would you mind if I ask how old you are? Just curious.

Yes, you sure may, I’m 25.
And just because I’m curious also, why do you ask?

Just as a side note, even though I am young, I do not like the “youth outreach” in our church, most of which have the holding hands and being more “open” to that sort of thing. I had to put up with that sort of attitude in high school and at all those youth retreat type things, and they ended up killing my faith at the time because it was more about making “friends” with other people in a happy-go-lucky type atmosphere. They (my “Catholic” high school) did not teach us properly about Jesus, they made Him suffer to be downplayed as just “someone to be looked up to”. Had there been some honest orthodox spiritual direction and discipline I may not have left the faith for so many years. I “belong” to the group of young Catholics (though not an organized group) that is more reserved and old fashioned. I don’t care for the World Youth Day sort of thing…yes, the church needs the youth, but they need to stop singling us out like we need some sort of special or different treatment.
We (the youth) want our faith restored, whole and entire, not this watered down version. What ever happened to the way things were in the lives of the great saints? Incompetent leadership is destroying our faith because they think they know what is best for us…they need to stop giving us what makes us feel good and give us the truth…that’s all I ask, that is what the Catholic church is here for, and they are not doing it properly.
Perhaps I will explain this more in another post…

 

[robertaf]

Thank you, Great post!

The reason I asked is that I had guessed you were young and since I have a great interest in young people, I wanted to be sure. I have spent many years teaching the Faith to teens and young adults.

I have been away from this teaching for a number of years now, mostly since we moved to Northern California.

In Southern California, we discovered that over 75% of the students in our very large Catholic High School were attending Evangelical Churches and not wanting to go to Mass. I was working with the youth and at the High School and in fact with our Diocese. We (adults) went out to these evangelical churches to check out what they had that attracted the kids. We saw, not just the teens but young adults that had been raised in Catholic homes, folks we knew. The primary Evangelical Church in this area was full, standing room only and they could seat 1500 people. Later they built a new building that seated 3000 and it soon filled to capacity.

We were able to identify many of the “Catholics” and later asked them to spend some time talking to us because we really wanted to know some answers.

This was about 20 years ago. We took huge amounts of notes and gathered tons of information. You see our Pastor was sent out to report back to our Bishop. We were in one of the largest Diocese in Southern California and our Bishop could see this was not isolated but a major problem with the Church.

The biggest complaint across the board was poor preaching and lack of interest in the youth in their parishes. We discovered that in many parishes, where the Pastor had been in the parish for up to 12 years, he didn’t know the first names of most of the youth and many of the parents, even though they attened Mass regularly. They called him Father but he didn’t know the name of his Spiritual kids. The evangelical pastors made it a point to meet people, remember names and other things about them as did folks who were in the Congregation. The ministers, PREACHED, sometime for hours and this wasn’t once a week but sometimes 5 or 6 times a week. He didn’t read his sermons but was well prepared. The music was another issue. This was not an issue in many of the more progressive parishes because 20 years ago, a lot of thought was given to music and it was often upbeat.

I have teenaged grandchildren today. A few months ago, they were invited to a Protestant youth group and they had been attending evangelical services with friends and liking it. These kids, along with two younger sibs were all in Catholic School. I started questioning them only to find out that the very high tuition we were paying was not providing real Religious teaching. It was luke warm stuff. Catholic elementary schools no longer encourage kids to attend daily Mass. Maybe because we no longer have nuns teaching.

I do not know if you and your friends are exceptions to the rule or if young folks nowdays are looking for more Traditional teaching and Masses. I see a lot of it here in these forums but I do not know if they are representative or not. I have learned a long time ago not to use one media as an example of a larger group. I, personally think this forum attracts EXTREMELY Conservative Catholics and the folks that are less conservative soon leave.
I have been here for quite sometime, now, and see this with my own eyes. If most folks think the same way, in one place it is very easy to see oneself as “mainstream”. I have been in Catholic discussion groups and chats on line for about 10 years and I do not see this conservative thinking across the board but even that does not give a valid representation.

Does that explain my curiosity to some degree?

Thanks again for the very interesting explaination

 

[clementine]

I think what really matters the most in answering the question about raising hands during Mass is that we make sure our physical responses are in line with the GIRM. Period. If we are not supposed to raise our hands, then we should not.

As a side note, I don’t understand what you mean, Roberta, when you say “I do not know if you and your friends are exceptions to the rule or if young folks nowdays are looking for more Traditional teaching and Masses. I see a lot of it here in these forums but I do not know if they are representative or not.”

What does “more Traditional teaching” mean? As a convert and a person who was born post-Vatican II, I understand the Truth to be the Truth. I know you consider yourself a “Charismatic” and I truly mean no disrespect, but am I missing something? I honestly didn’t realize there options.

Peace,

• clementine

 

[netmilsmom]

robertaf:

T
I do not know if you and your friends are exceptions to the rule or if young folks nowdays are looking for more Traditional teaching and Masses. I see a lot of it here in these forums but I do not know if they are representative or not. I have learned a long time ago not to use one media as an example of a larger group. I, personally think this forum attracts EXTREMELY Conservative Catholics and the folks that are less conservative soon leave.
I have been here for quite sometime, now, and see this with my own eyes. If most folks think the same way, in one place it is very easy to see oneself as “mainstream”. I have been in Catholic discussion groups and chats on line for about 10 years and I do not see this conservative thinking across the board but even that does not give a valid representation.

Wow, Roberta, I have been here just about as long as you. I think that there is a mix here like anywhere else. The difference is that this site itself (not just the forums) is pretty conservative and well based in Catechism. The less conservative come here and have a problem backing opinion with fact.
I’m on a few sites myself. One of the best posters I have seen is on a Political action site I’m on. They have a Religion forum. This poster is extremely liberal, however he can back it up like the best of them. He doesn’t post with feelings, only facts. He also starts a discussion with a “Both of us could be right but…” And doesn’t get offended by little things. If he can’t find the answer, he states that he will find out.
That happens rarely here.

 

[robertaf]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

…He doesn’t post with feelings, only facts. He also starts a discussion with a “Both of us could be right but…” And doesn’t get offended by little things. If he can’t find the answer, he states that he will find out.
That happens rarely here.

I agree with you, it does rarely happen here. Emotions run very deep with some folks.
Another problem is the labels.
For example, I am a Charismatic but I consider myselve very orthodox and conservative. I certaily do not consider myself a liberal.
However, my conservatism stops when it joins forces with those who oppose Vatican II, and indeed the Spirit of Vatican II. That *Spirit *was indeed, the Holy Spirit. That is my *Orthodoxy *showing. I truly believe what the Church teaches me and what the Holy Father teaches. I believe, firmly, the Doctrines of the Church.
As far as holding hands during the Our Father, I will quit it completely, the second the GIRM says it is forbidden.
Other than that, it is still only personal opinions.
I was very observant of what folks were doing at Mass this morning. In fact, to the point that next Saturday I must confess missing Mass.
People say that when we use the Orans position, we are copying the Priest and we shouldn’t.
I watched folks doing much the same thing with other gestures, the book says the Priest does. The PRIEST strikes his breast three times. That is not in the book for the people to do. I cannot remember each one of the things but I noted several other areas that people did priestly things and then some innovations that are not in the GIRM at all.
It was quite interesting. I saw a few folks step out of the line they were in, causing *disruption, *in order to receive Communion from the Priest rather than a extraordinary minister and then kneeling instead of standing. One such lady held a baby and once down needed assistance getting back up. That was a sight.
I am sure my confession will include lack of charity as well as not mentally or spritually attending Mass. From now on I will make a definate attempt to keep myself focused on the Lord.

I have been a follower of Catholic Answers for many many years. My former Diocese was once part of San Diego Diocese where Catholic Answers is based and at one time had all of their tapes. In fact I treasured them and used them when my own son abandoned his Catholic Faith for one of the Evangelical Churches. I used Catholic Answers writings and tapes in my teachings and ecumenical work with CA’s permission back years ago.

That is probably why I have stuck it out here even when our Charismatic threads keep getting locked out. I do not blame CA for that, it is the anti Charismatic people who come into these threads and cause so much trouble it seems to be easier to just lock them up.

 

[netmilsmom]

robertaf:

. I do not blame CA for that, it is the anti Charismatic people who come into these threads and cause so much trouble it seems to be easier to just lock them up.

I have to think a bit about the rest of your post. There is so much to say.
But could you please give me some thread to read where the Anti-Charismatics came on and then it was locked.
I would really like to read some.

And BTW, what you take as labels I think of as classifications.

 

[robertaf]

Click on my name and then search my posts for the Charismatic threads.

It has been very frustrating, even when we started threads for discussion only, no debate. It happened even then.

We then took a rest, we were asked to take a short break from even opening a Charismatic thread.

This may happen on other topics, I do not know.

 

[Lamb100]

When I felt my personal space violated by having my hand grabbed during the Lord’s Prayer, where did that imply that I wouldn’t shake the hand of a small child during the Passing of the Peace (which is a different part of the Mass, by the way)??? Where did that imply I would display such a lack of charity? I really think that’s an unkind assumption. If people want to pray in their own way–if they want to genuflect before receiving (incidentally, I don’t, as a sign of unity with the Roman rite–I wish it were the norm, but it’s not–however, it’s supposed to be allowed and a person can’t be refused communion because of it) to show adoration of the Lord–this is between the person and the Lord. Everyone should show kindness to each other as to Christ, because we are all His Body–especially kindness to small children. That was really uncalled for, to assume I would do such a thing.

 

[robertaf]

Greetings Lamb

I do beg your pardon. I honestly didn’t mean to imply you would do that. What was I thinking! I see how it might read that way, I truly didn’t mean it that way. Please forgive me for my carelessness.

I do respect the fact you do not choose to do that and it is fine.

I can tell by your response that you are very sensitive where little children are concerned. I wish that had been true with the ladies who were so unkind in our parish.

 

[Julian_Peters]

Thank you to all those who have participated in this discussion. This thread is now closed.