Raising hands in mass

[neum334]

Wait…you mean some people actually raise only one hand during the Our Father? I thought it was just holding hands and holding them even higher during the doxology.

 

[Draygonn]

I have been raising my hands during the Our Father for quite some time now. I can’t recall when i first started but I can recall a priest who mentioned it before we prayed the Our Father. He said something along these lines
-Raising hands is a universal sign, one for surrender. If you would like to, raise your hands during the Our Father as a way of surrendering your will to that of God.

I thought that it sounded fine and never thought anything was wrong with it. I believe that it is what is inside when you pray to god rather than what is outside. However I also feel that if the Pope says to pray a specific way, then all Catholics are obligated to do so. Personally, if the Pope said that all Catholics were to pray stanidng on our heads I would do so. I trust that our Pope knows what he is talking about concerning faith and I am in no position to argue. I am unaware of any statement by the Pope stating we cannot raise our hands in prayer and I feel that I pray it better that way as it draws my attention more so than anything else. Now concerning hand holding, it should not be obligatory, just as raising hands should not. I don’t think God, the Pope, or any Bishops for that matter, need to tell us how we can and cannot pray the Our Father. God gave us brains and we need to use them. Simply put I am not the Pope and am only giving my opinion. Is this question really such a big issue we need the Pope to say don’t do it? Just as I hope we don’t need the Pope to tell us that spitting out the Eucharist is wrong (not that I’ve seen anyone do it) I hope the Pope does not have to guide us through something so simple as giving ourselves to god in the Lord’s Prayer.

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

debbie m.:

I don’t get this thinking, if in the Missal there is nothing written for the posture of the faithful then we can do whatever we want. What??

Then perhaps the altar servers are allowed to do cartwheels in the sanctuary to show their joy! Don’t tell me they can’t or that it would be an abuse since the Missal doesn’t say “don’t do cartwheels in the sanctuary.”
Anyway, to say that because the Missal is silent on posture then we can do whatever is faulty reasoning based on nothing.

One more time for the Rudy Giuliani parallel!

When He was elected mayor of New York City, his big job and promise was to clean the city of the crime for which it had become notorious. He began with the small things such as tagging for graffitti, jay walking, and double parking, things that had been ignored and taken for granted for years.

It worked; as he got rid of the small infringements, so gradually major crime went down. This method is supposed to have been developed from psych experiments at Stanford, but that’s another story.

What matters is this: if you think that major abuses have been allowed to take root in the liturgy,and you wish to eradicate them, the best way is to start with minor infractions and work up.

It certainly worked for New York City.

I suggest this for those many of you who want the abuses eliminated. I realize that some of you have an entirely different “tack” on what the Eucharist/Mass means, but you have had forty years, haven’t you? Now do be kind, and let us have our turn.

And pray unceasingly,

Anna

 

[debbie_m]

Anna Elizabeth:

One more time for the Rudy Giuliani parallel!

When He was elected mayor of New York City, his big job and promise was to clean the city of the crime for which it had become notorious. He began with the small things such as tagging for graffitti, jay walking, and double parking, things that had been ignored and taken for granted for years.

It worked; as he got rid of the small infringements, so gradually major crime went down. This method is supposed to have been developed from psych experiments at Stanford, but that’s another story.

What matters is this: if you think that major abuses have been allowed to take root in the liturgy,and you wish to eradicate them, the best way is to start with minor infractions and work up.

It certainly worked for New York City.

I suggest this for those many of you who want the abuses eliminated. I realize that some of you have an entirely different “tack” on what the Eucharist/Mass means, but you have had forty years, haven’t you? Now do be kind, and let us have our turn.

And pray unceasingly,

Anna

Hi Anna,

I think I agree with you. I don’t know why it seems you didn’t agree with my post though.

I agree that it is the “little” abuses (like holding hands/raising hands) - which by the way includes doing things that are purposely not in the Missal for gestures of the faithful during Mass because we are not suppose to do them.

Here’s an example of what the Missal of the Church does teach as the posture, during the Creed it states “ALL BOW” at the appropriate time, meaning the priest and the faithful. In contrast, for the Our Father it says "With hands extended the priest continues…- it doesn’t say “ALL EXTEND THEIR HANDS.” Now, I’m sorry for being impatient here but it just makes sense that this only means the priest is suppose to extend his hands or else it would say ALL as it does for the Creed.

The fact is, both of these gestures, hand holding and raising hands during the Our Father were submitted to the Holy See for approval and they were rejected - if people do their research and they love the Sacred Liturgy of the Church they would know this or at least want to find out. Do you need a personal letter from the Pope himself? What I am hearing from some is apathy…who cares. Then I would say that the Liturgy is not important to them at this time of their faith journey…everyone is at a different place. But, to say that we shouldn’t care about and discuss the Liturgy because there are more important things really is futile to those who have studied it and are passionate about it. Maybe some people just aren’t there yet - I use to think the same way because I didn’t understand the importance of the Liturgy. The Sacred Liturgy brings heaven and earth together, therefore, bringing us closer to Our Lord.

God bless,
Debbie

 

[tTt]

Anna Elizabeth:

What matters is this: if you think that major abuses have been allowed to take root in the liturgy,and you wish to eradicate them, the best way is to start with minor infractions and work up.
Anna

 

[TheGarg]

space ghost:

you know, the holding hands with a family member at the “Our Father” is one thing… grabbing some strangers hand is altogether something different…at least for me

Arent we all family, or is that just something we proclaim on sunday?

Mother Theresa held many poeple, who were dying, stank, didn’t even know God, and so on…but she truely loved all as family.

Mark, Kudos to you on your comment about “self-appointed liturgy cops, who certainly qualify as a “lesser authority.””

Peace of the Lord be with you All!

 

[kwitz]

I really don’t have an opinion on whether holding/raising hands is OK; I could play devil’s advocate for either side. But what I always find interesting is the arguement against which says since the GIRM does not specifically allow holding/raising so it shouldn’t be done is often made by the same people who try to say they can kneel/genuflect at Commnunion because it isn’t expressly forbidden but minimally isn’t the norm in the USA.

Kris

 

[terrcatholic]

Hate Holding hands, raising hands,even shaking hands, to Protestant for me. I dont need to shake some strangers hand, filled with germs, to let her/she know I love them. Besides, I can count how many times after mass, after all this “shaking” when someone cuts ahead of someone in the parking lot, the words that fly, so I guess the Love disappered. It is a stupid practice and I actually never reach out to shake anyones hand (give my wife a kiss only) and I just stare at that wonderful loving man on that cross and reflect what he did for me, before I take him into my body. maybe a moment of silence would be more appropriate after the “Pater Noster” for all of you latin conservatives like me who yearn for yesteryear and piety to return.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Exporter:

When I go to weekday Mass ( at 8 AM) there maybe 80 to 100 people there. I choose to sit apart so I don’t have to be prompted to hold hands. I don’t hold hands at home when I start my nightly prayers with the Our Father, so why should we do it at Mass? I truely do not know how this got started.

There are a few Protestant habits that have crept into the clebration of the Mass, projecting the words of a song up on a wall and singing by the layity are two. I don’t like it.

In the Protestant churches that I’ve attended, Baptist and Episcopal (both High and Low Church), no one ever held hands, except teenagers who were dating and hadn’t been taught that public displays of romantic affection aren’t regarded as acceptable in church. I’m curious as to why people think this was a Protestant innovation? I don’t like the handholding, but it is not Protestant. As to singing by the laity, that is very Catholic. They’ve sung loud and strong in Germany and Italy for centuries. The silent laity is largely a phenomenon of the American Church, which has the majority of its antecedants in the Irish Church. In Ireland, Catholicism was prohibited by the English. Mass had to be celebrated in secret, in hedgerows, barns, attics, etc. No one sang because the secret had to be kept and no one wanted to attract attention to what was going on. When the prohibition was lifted, the Irish just kept worshipping that way. I’m not saying that’s bad, I’m simply saying the singing by the laity is not a Protestant innovation. There is a book called Why Catholics Can’t Sing. It’s a very good read on the subject and on the dev. of the horrible songs we have to sing in Mass now.

 

[debbie_m]

kwitz:

I really don’t have an opinion on whether holding/raising hands is OK; I could play devil’s advocate for either side. But what I always find interesting is the arguement against which says since the GIRM does not specifically allow holding/raising so it shouldn’t be done is often made by the same people who try to say they can kneel/genuflect at Commnunion because it isn’t expressly forbidden but minimally isn’t the norm in the USA.

Kris

Not everyone! Be careful in your generalizations, there are alot of faithful Cathics who want to be obedient to the Church in ALL things. Also, **HAND HOLDING AND HAND RAISING WERE REJECTED WHEN SUBMITTED FOR APPROVAL TO THE HOLY SEE in the 90’s. ** Funny how no one has commented on this thus far and I have mentioned it THREE TIMES!

Kneeling has ALWAYS been the past traditional posture so the comparison is not equivalent to something that is a MODERN INNOVATION by some disobedient liturgists. Why not just follow the postures that the Church proscribes? It is not that difficult to give up personal taste if you love Christ and the Sacred Liturgy that is given to us by Him through his Holy Church.

God bless,
Debbie

 

[dmelosi]

Well said Debbie.

 

[WhiteDove]

TheGarg:

Arent we all family, or is that just something we proclaim on sunday?

Mother Theresa held many poeple, who were dying, stank, didn’t even know God, and so on…but she truely loved all as family.

Mark, Kudos to you on your comment about “self-appointed liturgy cops, who certainly qualify as a “lesser authority.””

Peace of the Lord be with you All!

You know, I find it incomprehesible that some folks think they have a ‘right’, in the interest of Christian unity, to grab someone’s hand! No, everyone has different personal space boundries which widely vary from person to person.

I happen to be a nurse who works with the sick and dying, and I always watch for signals from my patient as to how they like to be touched, and believe me not everyone wants it! It’s highly presumptuous to think that someone is coming from the same place as you yourself do in this very personal matter.

BTW, the legal definition of unwanted touching of any kind is ‘assault’. So, hands off please!

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

WhiteDove:

You know, I find it incomprehesible that some folks think they have a ‘right’, in the interest of Christian unity, to grab someone’s hand!

Yes, I find that a bit surprising, too.

As it happens, the church I attend does the hand-holding thing, but very politely. I have never had anyone grab my hand. At most, a hand is offerred, and it is either taken or not taken.

As for any tendancy to push hand-holding as some kind of unity thing, that is disturbing. That amounts to pursuing the gift – for Christian unity is a gift, not something we manufacture by coming together – rather than pursuing the giver of the gift, as we are called to do. Pop psychology is no substitute for faith, and the notion that we come together to celebrate community, or some such thing, has done much harm to the practise of the faith, and the liturgy.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[JKirkLVNV]

debbie m.:

Not everyone! Be careful in your generalizations, there are alot of faithful Cathics who want to be obedient to the Church in ALL things. Also, **HAND HOLDING AND HAND RAISING WERE REJECTED WHEN SUBMITTED FOR APPROVAL TO THE HOLY SEE in the 90’s. **Funny how no one has commented on this thus far and I have mentioned it THREE TIMES!

Kneeling has ALWAYS been the past traditional posture so the comparison is not equivalent to something that is a MODERN INNOVATION by some disobedient liturgists. It is not that difficult to give up personal taste if you love Christ and the Sacred Liturgy that is given to us by Him through his Holy Church.

God bless,
Debbie

“Proscribe” means “forbid.” Prescribe means to “require” or “recommend.” If the bishops or whomever submitted it for approval, perhaps they were seeking to make these spontaneous gestures required rubrically and the Holy See rejected the idea that the gestures by the laity had to be there. Archbishop Chaput says, in the link kindly provided by someone above, says that the gestures are not required or forbidden. I personally don’t like either gesture much, but as I’m not required to do it, it doesn’t matter to me that others do, as it does seem to matter to them.

 

[katherine2]

Gerry Hunter:

Yes, I find that a bit surprising, too.

As it happens, the church I attend does the hand-holding thing, but very politely. I have never had anyone grab my hand. At most, a hand is offerred, and it is either taken or not taken.

Blessings,

Gerry

Same in my parish, Gerry. The practice has been reverent, polite, spontanious and organic. Nothing prohibits it and peopel freely and voluntarily engage in it.

Seems to be the organic development that some conservatives think is otherwise lacking.

 

[debbie_m]

“Proscribe” means “forbid.” Prescribe means to “require” or “recommend.” If the bishops or whomever submitted it for approval, perhaps they were seeking to make these spontaneous gestures required rubrically and the Holy See rejected the idea that the gestures by the laity had to be there. Archbishop Chaput says, in the link kindly provided by someone above, says that the gestures are not required or forbidden. I personally don’t like either gesture much, but as I’m not required to do it, it doesn’t matter to me that others do, as it does seem to matter to them.

Oops! Typo error…thanks for pointing it out. I did mean prescribe. Quite honestly, people can ultimately do what they want but I think there is a bigger lesson here for people - that is honesty that they either follow the prescribed gestures or they don’t because they prefer doing their own thing since they like it better and they just add it in…as though the Church is lacking in Her teaching. I myself prefer to follow the authority of the Church and avoid trying to add my own signature to things that are meant for the Glory of God not Glory of Me.

God bless,
Debbie

 

[katherine2]

debbie m.:

Oops! Typo error…thanks for pointing it out. I did mean prescribe. Quite honestly, people can ultimately do what they want but I think there is a bigger lesson here for people - that is honesty that they either follow the prescribed gestures or they don’t because they prefer doing their own thing since they like it better and they just add it in…as though the Church is lacking in Her teaching. I myself prefer to follow the authority of the Church and avoid trying to add my own signature to things that are meant for the Glory of God not Glory of Me.

God bless,
Debbie

There is no issue here of the authority of the church. Where she is silent, people have liberty. I don’t need a rubric to allow me to hold my great-grandchild on my lap, to put my arm around my daughter, to help a friend who is feeble stand up, or close my eyes at a particularly solemn part of the Mass. I don’t need a rubric to allow me to smile.

 

[debbie_m]

katherine2:

There is no issue here of the authority of the church. Where she is silent, people have liberty. I don’t need a rubric to allow me to hold my great-grandchild on my lap, to put my arm around my daughter, to help a friend who is feeble stand up, or close my eyes at a particularly solemn part of the Mass. I don’t need a rubric to allow me to smile.

You state the obvious in sarcasm, no debate about these natural acts. We are talking about the Sacred Liturgy of the Church if you don’t want to realistically discuss it then sorry… you’re on the wrong forum.

In addition, there IS a given directive in the rubrics and it is for the PRIEST to raise his hands, it never says anywhere LAY PEOPLE KEEP HANDS AT YOUR SIDE, this is obvious, if it states only the priest then it is only the priest…**that’s not silence. In the rubrics when giving directives to both the priest and the faithful it states “ALL.” **Have you ever actually looked these things up to find out? Be honest here, it really doesn’t make any difference to you what the rubrics say or you wouldn’t come up with such a ludicrous argument.

God bless,
Debbie

 

[rcwhiteh]

A couple of observations:

First of all, raising hands in the “Orans” position during the Our Father may be controversial for Roman Catholics, but it’s standard practice for Byzantines - and we’re just as Catholic as you are. If the GIRM doesn’t specifically say you can’t do it, I think you need to look at the larger Catholic community and see if any other sui juris church is doing it; if the answer is yes, then I think you’re probably pretty safe to do it. The important thing is to show proper piety and respect for the Lord.

Secondly (but by the same token), Byzantines don’t tend to hold hands during the Our Father, and I think if you tried to do it, you’d get some very odd looks. You might do it with other members of your immediate family, but reaching for a stranger’s hand is probably verboten. It’s probably an issue of custom.

I have to attend a Roman-rite church because there are no Byzantine churches in our area, so I’m used to the Novus Ordo. I’m not criticizing hand-holding, but I’m not endorsing it, either; we do it every Sunday, and it doesn’t really bother me. (I also grew up Southern Baptist; we did it at church every Sunday there, too.)

All that said, I certainly understand why some Romans want to return to the Tridentine Mass. I like the Byzantine liturgies in large part because the congregation feels led in worship; this is something the Novus Ordo Mass gave up.

In reflection, I think there are a number of liturgical abuses that are a bit more deserving of our ire than a common practice of hand-holding. I suspect this is an Americanism; I doubt anyone in, say, Europe is doing it. (At least I didn’t see anyone doing it at the Marketkirche in Wiesbaden.)

 

[katherine2]

debbie m.:

You state the obvious in sarcasm, no debate about these natural acts. God bless,
Debbie

And holding hands is somehow an UNnatural act?