Raising hands in mass

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debbie m.:
I find something interesting about you Mysty101: ** I read your other posts about kneeling for Communion and you state that people should follow the normative posture in order to be united as a community rather than centring themselves out and doing what they want. ** I’m confused here when you then on this thread imply we should just do what we want for the posture during the Our Father…** Don’t you think that’s a little contradictory?**

His unworthy servant,
Debbie
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OK where did I say
we should just do what we want for the posture during the Our Father?
My main point is that since no posture is prescribed, there is no abuse, so it would be better to channel your energy more productively.
what I said was,
I have never seen a prohibition of the laity praying in the orans position, and even though this was not adopted by the USCCB, the fact that it was considered would indicate that it is allowable
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I have heard that the call for unity is so strong, that unless there is a definite prohibition, we are to follow the community at the Mass we attend.
GIRM
Movements and Posture
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  1. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered.52 Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.
    A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.
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  1. …With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.
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Here’s exactly what you said in the thread about those who kneel for Holy Communion: "As I said, a seminarian told me they used the term “overly pious” for someone who would not act in community— Anything which draws attention to oneself says, “Look at me”, and even if it is allowed, has no place in public community worship, especially in a crowded Sunday Mass."

You’re not being consistent with these same principles on this thread…seems like you’re picking and choosing based on what YOU think is right rather than the Church.

BTW, in regards to the GIRM it only further proves that the faithful should be following the Missal instructions rather their own “private inclination.” And when it speaks of that which is for the good of the people, when taken in context, it is speaking of the good of a common posture from the MISSAL. These postures are not traditions from the Roman Rite, they are new innovations which have never been approved for this Rite.

Anyway, I will post the response which I receive from the Congregation for Divine Worship - and I am most certain it will be against these postures. We will let the Church have the final authority on this.

His unworthy servant,
Debbie
 
Debbie,

How is this responding to our discussion in this thread?
You’re not being consistent with these same principles on this thread…seems like you’re picking and choosing based on what YOU think is right rather than the Church.
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I am quoting the GIRM in both instances—no posture given for the Lord’s Prayer and stand for Communion . How is this inconsistent?
And how does your post show anything about the posture for the Lord’s Prayer?

If you want to discuss what I said in the other thread, post over there. Let’s try to stay on topic here.
 
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Cradle:
Maybe I’m just weird, but it wouldn’t feel right to look up… I usually bow my head and look down when we say the Our Father. Looking up would feel too aggressive or irreverent, for me at least. :o
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I see your point. But our Father is in Heaven. Up there. Not down there. 😃

I noticed it once as Father Collins celebrated Mass on EWTN and was wondering if any other priest or lay person does it.
 
debbie m.:
Well, some of you have helped me to make a decision that I need to get a letter of to Rome requesting explicit instructions for the faithful to NOT hold hands and to NOT assume the priest’s gesture of the orans during the Our Father. …
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Yes, well you just do that, dear. You’ll let us know when you get a response, won’t you? :whacky:
 
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EddieArent:
I see your point. But our Father is in Heaven. Up there. Not down there. 😃

Wait! I was told that God is right there on the Altar!!!
Wow the Cathechism is really slacking these days.
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It’s not poor Catechism. The consecrated Host is not elevated during the Pater Noster, thus you can’t see our Lord unless you’re a priest looking down at the altar. Next time you go around pointing at people, think about the context.
 
Some thoughts on this one:
  1. The holding hands helps spread germs.
  2. We look like Pentecostals
  3. Its distracting to connect with God, not each other is some form of social hour.
  4. Again ,its Protestant-like
Raising hands
  1. It is to me a form of mimicking.
  2. “we are the church” philosophy
  3. THe priest is the one with holy orders, not laity. It is he that consecrates, blesses, etc.
  4. Again, it is a seeping Protestantism from Vatican II. I am not aopposed to Vatican II, though it is known protestant ministers were there trying to push their agendas. Many are highly disappointed we didnt go down to their level. I feel it is an abuse.
  5. Pentacostal I am not.
 
You’ve made the point that its “protestant” about four times. To paraphrase my Mama, if the Proestants didn;t jump off a cliff, would you, just to be different?
 
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EddieArent:
It’s not poor Catechism. The consecrated Host is not elevated during the Pater Noster, thus you can’t see our Lord unless you’re a priest looking down at the altar. Next time you go around pointing at people, think about the context.
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I’m so sorry it took this long to get back to you.

The Body and Blood of Christ is right there on the altar.
You state that you can’t see it at that time, however, you cannot see God in heaven at anytime so why, if you know that God is there with you, would you feel a need to look up?
I’m not trying to point (I did come off as rude, I’m working on it 🙂 )
I’m attempting to get people to see that the orans position at this point in the mass is unwarranted.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
I’m so sorry it took this long to get back to you.

The Body and Blood of Christ is right there on the altar.
You state that you can’t see it at that time, however, you cannot see God in heaven at anytime so why, if you know that God is there with you, would you feel a need to look up?
I’m not trying to point (I did come off as rude, I’m working on it 🙂 )
I’m attempting to get people to see that the orans position at this point in the mass is unwarranted.
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So why does the priest look up?
 
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katherine2:
So why does the priest look up?
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Our priests are not looking up. Our priests are looking at their flock.
Why are your priests looking up?
 
I agree with the folks who find the practice of hand-holding at the Our Father objectionable, but…

I had the most amazing experience with hand-holding during the Our Father at the very first Mass I ever attended. I was a Protestant discerning this call to the Church. One of the Medjugorje visionaries visited my town, and the meeting was held in a big indoor sports facility. I went, without a clue what would happen there.

Being totally unfamiliar with Catholic behavior, I found a seat high in the stadium, far enough away from others that I could observe without being observed. After the rosary, there was a Mass, and I had no idea what to say or do at any point. During the Our Father, I dutifully followed others nearby and raised my hands at my side. From behind me, a man came up and clasped my hand.

It was an electrifying experience! Through that hand, I felt the warmth of the whole Church. I felt loved, accepted, welcomed…I knew it was OK that I, a stranger and protester, was in their midst. It seems like a small thing, but that hand propelled me to continue the pursuit of that call to the Church, until my union with it was complete.
 
I have some blessed oil. You can use blessed oil. You just have to tell someone, that the distribution of the blessed oil does not count as a sacrement…

But the along with the distribution of the blessed oil is a prayer from the bible. Go forth annointing with blessed oil in Jesus name…

We have bad priests and all kinds of problems. So its up to all of us to be faithful disciples of Christ and help tow the load…

If people want to put their hands up and holds hands, I dont care. There are worse, more disruptful and disgraceful things that go on in church, like talking all during mass that someone else pointed out. I am almost tempted sometimes to hit someone during mass. I am very laid back. I dont care if the priest brings animals into church, or parishners, a small dog under the jacket. Who cares. we all have to be good tolerant stewards of CHrist. We have much bigger problems with gays in CHurch that transcends into wicked probelms as we have seen with the closing of the diocese in Miami and Boston. We have Satan making busy of people with ridculous programs where nothing gets done. So really. Who gives a flying Habit?
 
I think that people making priestly gestures, or holding hands, detracts from the solemnity of the mass. I changed parishes a few years back because I was concerned about several matters, not the least of which was the apparent lack of respect for the blessed sacrament & a fast and loose approach to the liturgy and rubrics.

Seems to me that parishes where people hold hands and act like priests (in their gestures) have been the same parishes where you see a slew of problems. Especially noteworthy, and typical, among these are examples of disregard for the blessed sacrament.

Can’t say with authority that there is a cause/effect relationship, but it seems in my experience that where you have a disciplined mass, you also will find an obedient priest and laity.

Also… (this is certainly an over-simplification but it is absolutely the case in the Galveston-Houston archdiocese)… the further the tabernacle is from front & center is a pretty good indicator of how far the parish is from Rome.
 
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Reddi2go:
I think that people making priestly gestures, or holding hands, detracts from the solemnity of the mass. I changed parishes a few years back because I was concerned about several matters, not the least of which was the apparent lack of respect for the blessed sacrament & a fast and loose approach to the liturgy and rubrics.

Seems to me that parishes where people hold hands and act like priests (in their gestures) have been the same parishes where you see a slew of problems. Especially noteworthy, and typical, among these are examples of disregard for the blessed sacrament.

Can’t say with authority that there is a cause/effect relationship, but it seems in my experience that where you have a disciplined mass, you also will find an obedient priest and laity.

Also… (this is certainly an over-simplification but it is absolutely the case in the Galveston-Houston archdiocese)… the further the tabernacle is from front & center is a pretty good indicator of how far the parish is from Rome.
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You are right—it is a fine line, and sometimes difficult to see the exact point it is crossed. We don’t want to be too rigid, but we certainly must be authentic. Using Blessed oil can certainly be misinterpreted more easily than some hand gestures at Mass. The sick person may think he is anointed and not seek the sacrament from a Priest. Also the laity are not to make the sign of the Cross over someone or sacred object as in the blessing gesture of the Priest.

I do try to keep up on the documents, but do not stress over what the congregation does, unless it is a serious abuse. I speak to the Pastor if I see something questionable.

I feel it was good for you to change, if you were unhappy. Everyone is different, but hopefully we can all find a Parish to fulfill our needs.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Our priests are not looking up. Our priests are looking at their flock.
Why are your priests looking up?
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They aren’t. Nor are our lay people has they pray in the posture the Blessed Mother prayed in.
 
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Mysty101:
The laity are instructed not to simulate actions of the Priest, but this is in regard to the functions solely limited to a Priest (sacraments, blessings and of course consecration) The laity is not to make the sign of the cross over someone as a Priest does in blessing. There has been much controversy with lay people using blessed oil (a sacramental, not the oil of the sick), because it could be interpreted as simulating the anointing of the sick, but it was never expressly forbidden.

I have never seen a prohibition of the laity praying in the orans position, and even though this was not adopted by the USCCB, the fact that it was considered would indicate that it is allowable.
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Wow, I’ve never seen a prohibition of the laity for cartwheels either. Maybe my old parish will start it and then it can become the Norm!
 
While all of your participation on the Forums is much appreciated, the charity level of this discussion appears to be lacking. If the charity level does not improve, this thread will have to be locked. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.
 
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