Raising Hands in Prayer and Song

[CzechMan]

Still, 1 Tim. 2:8 is a commandment to men only, on how they need to pray, raising their holy hands without anger or quarreling. For women, this is not commanded.

 

[otjm]

The same way holding a rosary helps you say it?

 

[ricmat]

How about people raising their hands while spinning around? If that helps people pray better, should it be allowed (e.g. at Catholic Mass). Where does it stop?

And if I can define my own Catholic Liturgy, then can I also define my own Catholic Catechism?

 

[ricmat]

https://aws1.discourse-cdn.com/cath...ca94850c7e8004a50292e014d203d6c824941628.jpeg

In the first picture above, it seems to me that the Pope is asking for the Holy Spirit to come to us, and the woman directly to his right is saying “but not me, please.”

 

[ltwin]

How about people raising their hands while spinning around? If that helps people pray better, should it be allowed (e.g. at Catholic Mass).

From my Pentecostal perspective . . . sure. LOL.

Where does it stop?

And if I can define my own Catholic Liturgy, then can I also define my own Catholic Catechism?

I think an argument would be that unlike spinning around, lifting hands has ancient and scriptural precedent.

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

@ricmat
If I lift my hands in prayer or move a bit (spinning around may be a bit much, but yes, I’ve seen it) I’m doing absolutely nothing to the liturgy unless I’m ordained - and I’m not. If I’m distracting someone else near me with this, we’ll, that’s another issue I may or may not need to address, but it still isn’t a change in liturgy.

 

[ricmat]

In response to the above responses:

1. Yes, I was talking about the Mass, and not private devotions.
2. Yes, I’m very concerned about “distractions” - that’s a main peeve of mine.
3. Scriptural precedent - There are many things with scriptural precedent which are not done in the Mass, for example, receiving the body and blood of Christ while reclining on a sofa. But in any case, it is not for individuals at Mass to decide how the Mass is to be conducted.
4. Some things to realize about the Mass:
   The Mass is the continuation of the sacrifice of the cross. Jesus becomes truly present on the altar, still offering his sacrifice to the Father. The Mass is the highest form of prayer, and the highest form of worship. As such, the Church has designed the Mass as a “choreographed” event. Everything the priest says (other than the sermon) is defined. Every movement the priest makes is defined. Everything the laity says, or the moves we make are defined. We are ONE church, and the uniformity of our words and actions prove this.
5. At Mass, we temporarily enter Heaven. This is our opportunity to worship God properly here on Earth. To properly worship, we need to spritually open our ears and eyes, and open our hearts to the Holy Spirit.
6. When people (or the clergy) start to deviate from the prescribed rules (even though it may have scriptural precedent), it becomes very distracting. Like if you were watching and appreciating the beauty of the Nutcracker Ballet, and suddenly 4 of the 12 sugar plum fairies decide to go off and do their own thing, and even then it’s 4 different things, rap for example.
   So who is it that gains the most when the distractions occur? Why is it that cell phones seem to ring right at the Consecration as the priest says in persona Christi “This is my Body.” Satan is an expert of distraction.
7. As a separate item, immediately after receiving communion, we are a holy as we will ever be on this Earth. While kneeling in that silence, our souls are most receptive to hearing God and experiencing God. That’s why people go to remote quiet places for retreats. Oh…except that there is usually that major Mass distraction called “the need to have constant non-stop music/singing/etc.”
8. At the Mass I went to yesterday, just before the final blessing (and therefore before Mass was over), our priest advised us to “let’s give a round of applause to the choir, ushers, sacristan, altar servers, lectors, ministry leaders, etc. etc. …” What a distraction. We go to Mass to glorify God and instead seek to glorify ourselves. Sad, very sad.

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

Everything the laity says, or the moves we make are defined.

That’s not quite accurate. There are some rubrics that direct the laity, but not that many, and they don’t preclude (for instance) a parent tending to their children. There’s no sin if I don’t speak the responses. The laity are not under dictate for rigidity.

 

[ricmat]

I think the laity have been directed to take their children to the crying room (if available), or temporarily outside if necessary. When the parents decide NOT to follow this, then again, there can be major distractions.

There is no sin if you don’t speak the responses. But failing to speak them (or attempt to) deprives you of grace that you could have had, but instead refused. We get some grace for just being there. But much more if we actively participate. And much much more if we are totally engaged in the Mass (without distractions).

Even a deaf person can respond in their thoughts, if not verbally.

 

[babochka]

Yes, I’m very concerned about “distractions” - that’s a main peeve of mine.

So who is it that gains the most when the distractions occur? Why is it that cell phones seem to ring right at the Consecration as the priest says in persona Christi “This is my Body.” Satan is an expert of distraction.

Oh…except that there is usually that major Mass distraction called “the need to have constant non-stop music/singing/etc.”

What a distraction.

I understand that you are very disturbed by distractions, but they are a part of life. We cannot avoid all distraction during worship. My parish is situated on a busy corner and we are constantly having to deal with the sounds of traffic, particularly the sirens of emergency vehicles. Today I dealt with the distraction of one of the icons on the wall not being level. Yes, it was seriously distracting me. Much more than I should have allowed. Then I noticed that somebody had brought a leaf inside and torn it up and left the pieces all over. (I hope it wasn’t one of my kids. It could have been, but I don’t think it was this time.) Then I noticed that the ribbons on one of the books were fraying. And don’t even get me started on the distractions of my own kids. (Other people’s kids don’t generally distract me.) Anyway, my point is that we have to just learn to refocus when we are momentarily distracted by something beyond our control. We cannot reasonably expect a distraction-free environment, even in Mass. I would even argue that our ability to learn to pray and deal with distractions charitably can be an important part of our own path to holiness.

I think the laity have been directed to take their children to the crying room (if available),

There is no directive from the Church that children are to be taken to the crying room (if available).

 

[straykat]

God is Spirit and those who worship him worship in Spirit and Truth. Some things can be good, but at the end of the day, no Holy Mountains, no special Bloodline, no special words (which is awfully close to pagan thinking with their silly “magick” incantations), no special metals or jewels, no “I know how to really pronounce YHWH and you’re all heretics and worship Baal” (seriously… there are “Sacred Name” Protestants like this), and no physical gestures (hello stupid Masonic secret handshakes) are going to open the keys of heaven. The same goes for foods and special days, as St. Paul warned about plenty in his day. If a prayer style is sincere, it’s not going to hurt…and some things are good aids to teach the young especially… but in truth, it’s neither better or worse. The only physical realities Christ taught us to focus on were himself as the Son and in the Eucharist.

 

[Mathieu]

I see some young people at mass at the Parish I go to who do this as well. I don’t see anything wrong with it.

 

[Lee1]

Is it a Catholic tradition or did it come from another church and wheedle its way into ours?

 

[Mathieu]

I definitely wouldn’t say its a Catholic tradition and I most definitely don’t know the background of these people, so I can’t speak for whether or not they are just used to this from a previous church or what.

 

[Lee1]

I know an Anglican reverend who does this, I may have seen baptists do it on tv, not sure.

I’m probably too conservative to do it in public. Or too introverted perhaps. Though thinking about it I don’t really feel the need to do it, a prayer is enough I think. I do thump my chest three times during mass, but that’s subtlety different,

 

[TheLittleLady]

When we say “and with your spirit” some people lift up their hands.

When we say “we lift them up to the Lord” then “it is right and just” a lot of people lift up their hands.

That is not in the rubrics, it was brought in from Charismatic circles.

 

[ricmat]

We cannot avoid all distraction during worship.

Of course we cannot avoid all distractions during worship. But some distractions (ambulance sirens, etc) cannot be avoided. Some distractions can be prevented through common sense and consideration of others.

We cannot reasonably expect a distraction-free environment, even in Mass. I would even argue that our ability to learn to pray and deal with distractions charitably can be an important part of our own path to holiness.

Yes, of course it can be an important part of our path to holiness. Just as increasing our resistance to temptation is part of that path. Would you recommend that we provide more opportunities for temptation because overcoming it can lead to more holiness?

There is no directive from the Church that children are to be taken to the crying room (if available).

Of course there are such directives. All the parishes I’ve attended have implemented some form of directives e.g. to ushers that when they see some form of commotion, they should move forward and ask those responsible to leave or go to the crying room (if applicable). Do you claim that your parish is somehow prevented from issuing such a directive?

 

[babochka]

Some distractions can be prevented through common sense and consideration of others.

Of course. But we cannot control the behavior of others. Some people are more distractable than others and what distracts you might not even be a blip on the radar for me. The best we can do is learn to deal with inevitable distractions with grace and forgiveness (if such is necessary).

Would you recommend that we provide more opportunities for temptation because overcoming it can lead to more holiness?

No, I think we have to deal with quite enough opportunities for temptation without having to seek them out!

Of course there are such directives. All the parishes I’ve attended have implemented some form of directives e.g. to ushers that when they see some form of commotion, they should move forward and ask those responsible to leave or go to the crying room (if applicable).

Ah, I misunderstood you. I thought you meant that there was some sort of church-wide directive that children belong in the cry room. As far as moving outside or to a cry room when some sort of commotion happens, that is common sense and common courtesy. But even if a person does that, it takes time and the distracting event has already occurred. The damage is already done. It would seem that such a directive is either not present or not enforced in many parishes, given the number of complaints on CAF regarding noisy children.

Do you claim that your parish is somehow prevented from issuing such a directive?

My parish is a bit unusual. We are not prevented, but there really has been no need to issue such directives. We are a very small parish and function as more of an extended family. We have a high level of tolerance for each other’s quirks. I suppose if there were an ongoing problem, our priest would address it with the individuals involved or make suggestions to the parish as a whole. It would not come down as a directive.

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

Do you claim that your parish is somehow prevented from issuing such a directive?

Ours isn’t prevented from issuing a directive, but ours has enough sense that this is no way to treat people. They are allowed to self “police” on these matters.

 

[MiserereMei25]

It’s almost like reaching out for God.