Raising interlocked hands during the doxology

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I think you are right. I do not think it has to do with grave matter or mortal sin. But I do think it has to do with an uninstructed, unchatechised laity that are thirsty for some sort of direction and substance.

It would not be that much of an effort to address it. If there was some sort of parish uprising or defiance then we would be talking about sin/ grave matter. But as it is, it could be a pretty simple drama free direction and education by Father…
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MorEphrem said:
Ok so none of you answered what justification is used when raising hands during the doxology…

I personally think it comes from people imitating the priest, some of whom raise their hands to signal the ending of the Our Father and before they lower their hands.
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That’s because there is no justification. We’re not supposed to do it.
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
Absolutely! And one way we can do that is by not making men come into a church where they have to hold hands and lift up hands in some sort of hands across america sign. Teens too.

You look around the church and you see no men in the pews? Well, it could have to do with all the butterflies and flowers liturgy we got going on in some places.

But those are your big battles. And if you started a thread about them and someone came on a poo pooed your battles I would defend you as well.
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Well if a man isn’t man enough to NOT raise his hands…😛

It’s not like little old ladies wrestle these guys to the floor and force them into the orans position:D

That’s why I don’t “get” the complaint. No-one is forcing anyone to hold hands. I can honestly say I have NEVER held hands with a stranger in Mass ever.

I do however hold my childrens’ hands… and not just or only at the Our Father.

But we don’t raise our hands either.

And that’s such an easy thing NOT to do. Just tell your brain… er brain, don’t raise my hands.

As to people who do…

so what? Eventually, if I pray for them hard they’ll be as perfect as me:D:eek:

But I absolutely agree about felt banners, butterflies, and an infantalized and feminized church.
 
triumphguy said:
Well if a man isn’t man enough to NOT raise his hands…😛

It’s not like little old ladies wrestle these guys to the floor and force them into the orans position:D

That’s why I don’t “get” the complaint. No-one is forcing anyone to hold hands. I can honestly say I have NEVER held hands with a stranger in Mass ever.

I do however hold my childrens’ hands… and not just or only at the Our Father.

But we don’t raise our hands either.

And that’s such an easy thing NOT to do. Just tell your brain… er brain, don’t raise my hands.

As to people who do…

so what? Eventually, if I pray for them hard they’ll be as perfect as me:D:eek:

But I absolutely agree about felt banners, butterflies, and an infantalized and feminized church.
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I don’t hold hands, but most of the rest of my parish does. Every once in a while I’ll find myself next to some one (usually an older person) that practically reaches over and grabs my hand or comes very close to doing so. At that point I have two options. I can take that person’s hand, or I can refuse. What are the merits of each choices?

If I refuse, who knows what goes through the person’s mind. They might be offended, taking it personally. They might think I’m some kind of jerk and feel a little angry. Then they go to receive the Eucharist right after with these negative thoughts and emotions still fresh on their minds. Maybe they think I refused because I was sick and worried about spreading it, but then they find themselves behind me in line to receive the blood and another volley of thoughts gets launched.

Of course they might not think anything if I refuse. But the idea that a person’s heart and mind might be impacted negatively, even if only slightly, just as we’re about to receive the Eucharist, all because I wanted to stick to my guns on an issue that most pastors don’t even feel is important enough to bring up… well, I just suck it up and hold hands.

I can always refuse and then approach them after mass and explain why, but that doesn’t prevent the possibility that the person might receive the Eucharist with some sort of negativity fresh on their heart and in their mind due to my refusal.

And if I do hold hands, what then? The reasons why we shouldn’t do it seem as evasive as the reasons why we do.

So yeah, in an instance such as this, I just don’t see the battle as worth it. That being said, I do wish our pastor would address the issue. But I imagine it’s a difficult position to be a spiritual leader, preaching love and community, yet telling people to stop holding hands at church. And when your congregation questions why, there’s not much more to say than you’re not supposed to.
 
Back2Church said:
I don’t hold hands, but most of the rest of my parish does. Every once in a while I’ll find myself next to some one (usually an older person) that practically reaches over and grabs my hand or comes very close to doing so. At that point I have two options. I can take that person’s hand, or I can refuse. What are the merits of each choices?

If I refuse, who knows what goes through the person’s mind. They might be offended, taking it personally. They might think I’m some kind of jerk and feel a little angry. Then they go to receive the Eucharist right after with these negative thoughts and emotions still fresh on their minds. Maybe they think I refused because I was sick and worried about spreading it, but then they find themselves behind me in line to receive the blood and another volley of thoughts gets launched.

Of course they might not think anything if I refuse. But the idea that a person’s heart and mind might be impacted negatively, even if only slightly, just as we’re about to receive the Eucharist, all because I wanted to stick to my guns on an issue that most pastors don’t even feel is important enough to bring up… well, I just suck it up and hold hands.

I can always refuse and then approach them after mass and explain why, but that doesn’t prevent the possibility that the person might receive the Eucharist with some sort of negativity fresh on their heart and in their mind due to my refusal.

And if I do hold hands, what then? The reasons why we shouldn’t do it seem as evasive as the reasons why we do.

So yeah, in an instance such as this, I just don’t see the battle as worth it. That being said, I do wish our pastor would address the issue. But I imagine it’s a difficult position to be a spiritual leader, preaching love and community, yet telling people to stop holding hands at church. And when your congregation questions why, there’s not much more to say than you’re not supposed to.
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I used to go to a parish that did this. How I handled it was I prayed the Our Father with my hands clasped in a prayerful position with my head bowed and eyes closed. Most people will not bust in on that.
 
MorEphrem said:
I personally think it comes from people imitating the priest, some of whom raise their hands to signal the ending of the Our Father and before they lower their hands.
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I tend to think you’re right about that. And frankly, I don’t think there’s much of an excuse for it. Or for hand-holding or even the orans position for that matter.

And that leads to my :twocents: in this thread:

The usual argument in favor of tolerating such innovations is that the rubrics, or the GIRM (or whatever), say nothing about them. But, both of those are positive documents, meaning that they instruct what should be done at a particular time, not what shouldn’t be done. It takes a negative document for that.

When dealing with a positive document, one has, I think, to read between the lines. For an absurd example, let’s say someone comes to Mass and decides to say the Institution Narrative in a very loud voice. Neither the rubrics nor GIRM says anything about it, but they do say that the Institution Narrative is to be done by the celebrant(s). If it had been meant to be done by the congregation, the document(s) would say so. IOW, it seems to me that if something isn’t specified, it really shouldn’t be done. 😉
 
Since no one has come up with any theological justification or reason why arms are raised during the doxology, its probably safe to assume it was something which evolved by charismatics without any real meaning. They probably thought this gesture looked cool.

If I decided to do sumersaults down the aisle during the doxology, maybe people would follow my lead. It may take a few years to catch on, but even though its not specifically mentioned in the GIRM, its an expressive gesture that shouldn’t be denied me! 😉
 
malphono said:
I tend to think you’re right about that. And frankly, I don’t think there’s much of an excuse for it. Or for hand-holding or even the orans position for that matter.

And that leads to my :twocents: in this thread:

The usual argument in favor of tolerating such innovations is that the rubrics, or the GIRM (or whatever), say nothing about them. But, both of those are positive documents, meaning that they instruct what should be done at a particular time, not what shouldn’t be done. It takes a negative document for that.

When dealing with a positive document, one has, I think, to read between the lines. For an absurd example, let’s say someone comes to Mass and decides to say the Institution Narrative in a very loud voice. Neither the rubrics nor GIRM says anything about it, but they do say that the Institution Narrative is to be done by the celebrant(s). If it had been meant to be done by the congregation, the document(s) would say so. IOW, it seems to me that if something isn’t specified, it really shouldn’t be done. 😉
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At one of the parishes I once frequented, the congregation took it upon themselves to recite the “Through Him, with Him” prayer with the priest. I don’t know whom they wanted to impress but the bishop put a stop to that practice immediately.
 
ProVobis said:
At one of the parishes I once frequented, the congregation took it upon themselves to recite the “Through Him, with Him” prayer with the priest. I don’t know whom they wanted to impress but the bishop put a stop to that practice immediately.
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We used to do this as well at “life teen” Masses back in the 90s. It was stopped but not at the action of the Bishop.
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
I used to go to a parish that did this. How I handled it was I prayed the Our Father with my hands clasped in a prayerful position with my head bowed and eyes closed. Most people will not bust in on that.
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I do it that way too while silently praying the Pater Noster in Latin.
 
neophyte said:
I don’t know, because the rubrics don’t envision hand holding during the Our Father. It’s a liturgical novelty that seems to suggest the false notion that our unity lies not in our union with Christ, but rather in our union with each other.
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While the gesture is not called for and seems silly (the raising of the hands) to me – your suggestion that it suggests a notion that our unity lies not in our union with Christ, but rather in our union with each other–seems, to me, just as crazy. Why is it either or? Isn’t our union with each other simply a reflection or our union with Christ? Indeed can we truly be united to Christ if we are not united with our bretheren in Christ? Why is it that we want to spin things that we don’t like in a negative way? Yes, holding hands during the Our Father is not called for. Yes I would prefer people didn’t do it. But because of that–I am not going to cast insults at them or their action but simply point out that it is not called for. And yes–if someone offers me their hand at Mass I am not going to turn my nose up and refuse to take their hand-- as that would seem, to me, to be uncharitable–as it doesn’t seem to be a matter of sin that I am abetting.

The peace of Christ,
Mark
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
I used to go to a parish that did this. How I handled it was I prayed the Our Father with my hands clasped in a prayerful position with my head bowed and eyes closed. Most people will not bust in on that.
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My 15 year old son with down syndrome hates shaking hands and this is exactly what he does during the sign of peace. It works for him… and he figured it out all by himself (NO I’m NOT casting aspersions on anyone, I’m just proud that he figured out a social interaction problem by himself)
 
Back2Church said:
The great thing about these forums is that we don’t have a limit on how many different issues we are allowed to discuss, so we don’t have to pick and choose. We can discuss them all! 😉
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Except we keep coming back to this one in mock horror and indignation.

I really don’t see as many threads about engaging the youth, or fostering vocations in the family, or bringing the men back.
 
Hoo(name removed by moderator)mie said:
Hear! Hear! Because, really, don’t we have much more important issues to worry about?
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You and Triumphguy brought the same point to bear. And it is a valid point. There are many many important issues. Both replies were posted in response to the topic of the thread. You are criticizing not only those who do have valid opinions on this but also the OP for having the gall to post such trivial drivel.

Now I am new to these forums but I learn new stuff each day and today I found a tool that lets you search by what threads were started by a poster.
You have started 10 threads.
They have variety. From something someone posted on FB. To A person who needs prayers. To (and this is my point) The way people dress at Mass. By far and I mean by far the most responses you got was on the thread about how people do not dress properly at Mass.
Now I can only assume that the much more important issues to you are dress at Mass and going to a cornbread festival…

I am not trying to attack you only to say that, to my earlier point, many people talk about more important issues but then rarely fight the important issues. Then they attack someone who is fighting an issue they deem unimportant.
So, I look forward to more threads, started by you, about the important issues you wish to speak about.

Triumpguy.

You actually gave two things you thought were more important and I agree that the things you gave are indeed important and big manly fish to fry! I also pointed out that this issue may be part of your issues as well. You have started many more threads than the above poster. And actually many of them were quite substantive. I will actually go back and read some of them. But so far as I can tell, not one thread on Bringing men into Church, or helping the Youth.

So. I believe that as we pray so shall we believe. And I think sometimes, the devil is in the details and the small issues are actually battles worth fighting about. Or at the very least letting someone complain about.😉
 
triumphguy said:
Except we keep coming back to this one in mock horror and indignation.

I really don’t see as many threads about engaging the youth, or fostering vocations in the family, or bringing the men back.
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Feel free to start some! I will definitely post on them! Because I think those are battle that should be fought as well!

I probably have more to say about those subjects than this one. I look forward to your threads!
 
triumphguy said:
My 15 year old son with down syndrome hates shaking hands and this is exactly what he does during the sign of peace. It works for him… and he figured it out all by himself (NO I’m NOT casting aspersions on anyone, I’m just proud that he figured out a social interaction problem by himself)
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A pretty simple solution!👍

It is weird how at Mass some people can take liberties that they never would at a bus stop. Go ahead and try to hold my wife’s hand at a grocery store and see how long your arm is in a cast!
 
blaskoman said:
Since no one has come up with any theological justification or reason why arms are raised during the doxology,
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And it seems to me that’s because there is none … 😉
blaskoman said:
its probably safe to assume it was something which evolved by charismatics without any real meaning. They probably thought this gesture looked cool.
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🙂
blaskoman said:
If I decided to do sumersaults down the aisle during the doxology, maybe people would follow my lead. It may take a few years to catch on, but even though its not specifically mentioned in the GIRM, its an expressive gesture that shouldn’t be denied me! 😉
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I kind of wish I’d thought of that as an example. 🙂
 
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