Raising interlocked hands during the doxology

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ProVobis said:
At one of the parishes I once frequented, the congregation took it upon themselves to recite the “Through Him, with Him” prayer with the priest. I don’t know whom they wanted to impress but the bishop put a stop to that practice immediately.
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Great example. 🙂 And kudos to the bishop for taking some action. 👍
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
You and Triumphguy brought the same point to bear. And it is a valid point. There are many many important issues. Both replies were posted in response to the topic of the thread. You are criticizing not only those who do have valid opinions on this but also the OP for having the gall to post such trivial drivel.

Now I am new to these forums but I learn new stuff each day and today I found a tool that lets you search by what threads were started by a poster.
You have started 10 threads.
They have variety. From something someone posted on FB. To A person who needs prayers. To (and this is my point) The way people dress at Mass. By far and I mean by far the most responses you got was on the thread about how people do not dress properly at Mass.
Now I can only assume that the much more important issues to you are dress at Mass and going to a cornbread festival…

I am not trying to attack you only to say that, to my earlier point, many people talk about more important issues but then rarely fight the important issues. Then they attack someone who is fighting an issue they deem unimportant.
So, I look forward to more threads, started by you, about the important issues you wish to speak about.

Triumpguy.

You actually gave two things you thought were more important and I agree that the things you gave are indeed important and big manly fish to fry! I also pointed out that this issue may be part of your issues as well. You have started many more threads than the above poster. And actually many of them were quite substantive. I will actually go back and read some of them. But so far as I can tell, not one thread on Bringing men into Church, or helping the Youth.

So. I believe that as we pray so shall we believe. And I think sometimes, the devil is in the details and the small issues are actually battles worth fighting about. Or at the very least letting someone complain about.😉
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You’ve got 7000 of my posts to trawl through - I’m certain you will find some.👍
 
blaskoman said:
Since no one has come up with any theological justification or reason why arms are raised during the doxology, its probably safe to assume it was something which evolved by charismatics without any real meaning. They probably thought this gesture looked cool.

If I decided to do sumersaults down the aisle during the doxology, maybe people would follow my lead. It may take a few years to catch on, but even though its not specifically mentioned in the GIRM, its an expressive gesture that shouldn’t be denied me! 😉
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Now then… the reason why that wouldn’t catch on is that it would not be a natural response to a gesture of the priest presiding.

For some reason the orans position is.

That’s why people do it instinctively.

And if I saw you somersaulting down the aisle I’d probably rugby-tackle you… but if you raised you hands I’d just let it go.
 
Aha! So there is, apparently, a negative document on this. :cool: I thought I seen this posted once before but wasn’t sure. In any case, I am pleased to see it again. The link didn’t work for me, but have you an idea of the name and provenance of it? Nice piece of information to have for future reference, and I’d like to have the “source” if you know what I mean. 😉
 
blaskoman said:
A casual observer may say that this portion of the prayer could be the high point of the Mass or at least more important than the Our Father!
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What about the elevations of the consecrated host and the consecrated wine?
 
triumphguy said:
You’ve got 7000 of my posts to trawl through - I’m certain you will find some.👍
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No, I was referring to your threads that you started. If you go to profile>Statistics> Show all threads started by poster.

These are threads that you started. Not just ones that you posted on.

And I might also point out that this thread is on a sub forum for liturgy. What do you expect!
 
ProVobis said:
At one of the parishes I once frequented, the congregation took it upon themselves to recite the “Through Him, with Him” prayer with the priest. I don’t know whom they wanted to impress but the bishop put a stop to that practice immediately.
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Let’s hope he never visits an Eastern Catholic Church for the Divine Liturgy, where the congregation actually SINGS the entire thing (including the doxology)! 😉
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
No, I was referring to your threads that you started. If you go to profile>Statistics> Show all threads started by poster.

These are threads that you started. Not just ones that you posted on.

And I might also point out that this thread is on a sub forum for liturgy. What do you expect!
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Well I’m glad your the self-selected arbiter of individuals posting history.👍

Fill your boots.
 
To the OP–I am so sorry I trivialized an issue that obviously bothers you. I was very condescending to you. To HoosierDaddy, thank you for pointing out my less-than-nice attitude.
 
Not sure if this has been brought up, but the Vatican did come out and condemn this and other postures which mimic those which are proper to the priest. The document is the Instruction for Collaboration, seciton 6, paragraph 2.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/laity/documents/rc_con_interdic_doc_15081997_en.html

§ 2. To promote the proper identity (of various roles) in this area, those abuses which are contrary to the provisions of canon 907 are to be eradicated. In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers — e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology — or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to “quasi preside” at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity.

This orans position during the Our Father is also not permitted to be used by any Deacon during the Mass, so if a Deacon isn’t allowed how can we the laity be permitted? Also, notice that even concelebrating priests do not pray the Our Father in the orans position.
 
Holding your hand up as far as the shoulders is a traditional posture of prayer.
Hold you hand up higher, past your shoulders is a traditional posture of self-expression.
I don’t know if there is a theological reason, but that is the psychological reason for this posture.
 
neophyte said:
I don’t know, because the rubrics don’t envision hand holding during the Our Father. It’s a liturgical novelty that seems to suggest the false notion that our unity lies not in our union with Christ, but rather in our union with each other.

So you’ll have to ask whoever it was that invented it, if you can find them. I doubt that you’ll find a truly coherent answer.
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I think it may have been invented by The Waltons
 
blaskoman said:
If holding hands during the Our Father is meant to express unity, what are we to make of raising of the hands during the doxology? (What I like to call the “blast off” phase). Does this gesture represent our unity lifted up to God? A casual observer may say that this portion of the prayer could be the high point of the Mass or at least more important than the Our Father! After all, raising ones arms is quite significant.
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To be honest, the hand-holding thing and the addition of the words “For thine is the kingdom, etc …” are 2 of the post V2 changes that annoy me–and yes, I am quite aware that V2 didn’t make the change, but that is still the time frame in which the changes happened. I find it to be a hassle. In our church, some people reach behind them, in front of them and all over, to hold hands—rather like some kind of Catholic congo-line! I find that this breaks my thought process so I choose not to participate for the most part. I will sometimes hold my husband’s hand quietly and we do not lift our hands. Other times I simply fold my hands, lower my eyes and pray. I have never found it to be a problem—as I make the first “move”, if you will.
 
Our Priests(2) at my Parish call for this action. It is expected of one and all to hold hands during the Pater Noster and elevate our arms skyward during the Doxology. As has been hashed out many times on this sub forum, these are the problems within the O.F. that lead some to desire the more controlled Rubrics of the E.F. Not a fault of the O.F., just the Priests.
 
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