Raising taxes on the rich

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Hi, Monte RCMS,

A long time ago, I remember President Reagan stating as a goal to have one tax form the size of a post card - enough for the IRS to identify who is filing, what we made and the tax owed (yeah - no deductions, exemptions or anything else!!!) Well, the CPAs and Tax Attorneys took one look at that, figured they would quickly be out of work - and successuflly fought against it. Taxes have only gotten more complicated since then,

God bless Ronald Reagan and may he rest in peace.
Posters and readers interested in the OP issue of taxation of the “rich” should read this:

irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i6251.pdf

See if you can make heads or tails out of it.

AND, here is the actual form:

irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f6251.pdf

How “just” is this level of financial reporting for the average working person who earns a decent salary, maybe highly educated, and who is going out of their mind with work schedules and their kids’ stuff and etc. Not hardly rich … truly “rich” people are not like “Joe Lunch Box”, who HAVE to work to pay their bills.
 
Hi, Monte RCMS,

A long time ago, I remember President Reagan stating as a goal to have one tax form the size of a post card - enough for the IRS to identify who is filing, what we made and the tax owed (yeah - no deductions, exemptions or anything else!!!) Well, the CPAs and Tax Attorneys took one look at that, figured they would quickly be out of work - and successuflly fought against it. Taxes have only gotten more complicated since then,

God bless Ronald Reagan and may he rest in peace.
The libs idea of a simplified tax form:

How much did you make?

Send it in.

But seriously, folks, … they could have an alternative flat tax: 1040 FT: a flat 17% versus tons of pages of schedules. And you would have the option of doing it both ways and sending in the form with the lowest tax.
 
But seriously, folks, … they could have an alternative flat tax: 1040 FT: a flat 17% versus tons of pages of schedules. And you would have the option of doing it both ways and sending in the form with the lowest tax.
Where are you getting 17% from? The U.S. would probably default on its loans if we did that. You’d have to make it 30% just to keep it the same as now.
 
Hi, Monte RCMS,

A long time ago, I remember President Reagan stating as a goal to have one tax form the size of a post card - enough for the IRS to identify who is filing, what we made and the tax owed (yeah - no deductions, exemptions or anything else!!!) Well, the CPAs and Tax Attorneys took one look at that, figured they would quickly be out of work - and successuflly fought against it. Taxes have only gotten more complicated since then,

God bless Ronald Reagan and may he rest in peace.
The problem is not with the form. The post card sized form does not solve your problem. The problem is with defining “what we made”–that doesn’t change with a postcard sized form. For the W-2 employee it’s easy but for the business owner it is more tricky. Is it gross sales that you tax? Before or after discounts? Without factoring in what it cost me to generate that revenue? What if my $25 million in sales cost me $26 million to earn this year? I lost $1 million and you’re going to tax me on $25 million in sales? How is that fair? So just what do you mean by “what me made”? What if I paid tax on that income to a foreign country? Filing out the forms is relatively easy–for 90% of the forms–determing income–well not always so easy.

Thanks,
Mark
 
You know, Monte RCMS, if it was just collecting money - that would be one thing… but it is the other information gathering that adds to the burden of filling out government forms.

But government must know all it can about someone,.And that is a whole other topic.

God bless
The libs idea of a simplified tax form:

How much did you make?

Send it in.

But seriously, folks, … they could have an alternative flat tax: 1040 FT: a flat 17% versus tons of pages of schedules. And you would have the option of doing it both ways and sending in the form with the lowest tax.
 
Not so much.
The fair tax is still a drag on consumption. It doesn’t matter which side of the equation you tax, the outcome is the same: reduced purchasing power.

It is also unfair to lower incomes: a greater % of their expenses are non-discretionary, i.e. you can’t stop buying food or gas just because you want to avoid paying taxes. More wealthy people on the other hand could end up paying a significantly smaller portion of their income in taxes as they could decide to save more money, or spend it in other countries.
 
Hi, TTC,

You have hit upon several real problems - and, all of them are real drags on the economy. Right now I am in Louisiana … where everything has a sales tax placed on it. Previously, I was in Texas, where food and medicine are not taxed.

Some have tried a consumption only tax - you can tax food and drugs if you wish ,… or, let it slide… but, taxing cars and boats and golf carts - hey, these will get a lot of attention. The idea of not giving a penalty to those who save money is totally lost on the Washington bureaucrats - it is consume, consume and consume some more - but, no federal tax on such consumption. I honeslty would abolish the income tax as totally devoid of any social benefit - and go to a strictly consumption tax. The only reason why there is money is to spend and that is just where it will be taxed.,

God bless
Not so much.
The fair tax is still a drag on consumption. It doesn’t matter which side of the equation you tax, the outcome is the same: reduced purchasing power.

It is also unfair to lower incomes: a greater % of their expenses are non-discretionary, i.e. you can’t stop buying food or gas just because you want to avoid paying taxes. More wealthy people on the other hand could end up paying a significantly smaller portion of their income in taxes as they could decide to save more money, or spend it in other countries.
 
You know, Monte RCMS, if it was just collecting money - that would be one thing… but it is the other information gathering that adds to the burden of filling out government forms.

But government must know all it can about someone,.And that is a whole other topic.

God bless
And with e-filing it is even worse. They require e-filing and then you can’t get the returns e-filed without a lot of additional information that would not be required if you were paper filing the return. It is very irritating.

Peace,
Mark
 
Thanks for posting that Monte. I agree that it is inappropriate for the tax code not to be inherently adjusted for inflation in general. Maybe it’s job security for the legislators?
One of the many issues is that a LOT of people have uneven income … up one year and down the next. Not everybody gets a check every two weeks and it is the same until they get an adjustment.

If you are self-employed or work on commission or have some form of incentive based compensation, then your money flow in unpredictable. Or if you get your work through a temp agency … even if you have the same job for ten years. Or if you are an independent contractor working for Boeing. Or Microsoft.

People who make tax policy don’t understand the idea of anything other than a regular paycheck collected from a regular employer on a regular basis.

They have their cubicle and their same paycheck and their pension and their medical and their two weeks or four weeks vacation, and assume everyone else gets the same sort of compensation.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

But the tax code is DESIGNED to penalize everyone except the person in the cubicle.
 
The problem is not with the form. The post card sized form does not solve your problem. The problem is with defining “what we made”–that doesn’t change with a postcard sized form. For the W-2 employee it’s easy but for the business owner it is more tricky. Is it gross sales that you tax? Before or after discounts? Without factoring in what it cost me to generate that revenue? What if my $25 million in sales cost me $26 million to earn this year? I lost $1 million and you’re going to tax me on $25 million in sales? How is that fair? So just what do you mean by “what me made”? What if I paid tax on that income to a foreign country? Filing out the forms is relatively easy–for 90% of the forms–determing income–well not always so easy.

Thanks,
Mark
Read up:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_tax
 
Monte,

I am read up. Do you work with businesses and individuals on their taxes? Or is you knowledge of the tax system based on wikipedia and anti-tax media outlets and anedots from people you know?
There is nothing new in this article and it doesn’t address my question–it even points it out as an issue. I see nothing here that hasn’t been discussed for at least the past 20 years.

How do you define taxable income? That’s where the complexity is–unless you are advocating a gross receipts tax–which has it’s own unfairness problems.

What kind of flat tax are you advocating for? The Forbes plan has been around for years–and it has its own problems and issues.

The federal tax code is complex and can be costly to comply with–as your business grows and expands–especially if it grows overseas. Or as your investments become complex. But for the vast majority of americans their tax returns are rather simple to complete and involve little to no complexity.

More costly to businesses than complying with the federal tax code–is complying with all the various and ever changing state and local taxes. It’s harder to get information on them, their instructions and guidance are terrible and today you are not subject to the tax, but tomorrow you may well be. Uniform state tax law–would be a huge help to small businesses–especially in the internet age–where with the changing of what gives you nexus–more and more businesses are going to find themselves subject to other state taxes.

Tax simplification would be good but people always say just tax income at x% without really having a clue what “income” is. And given the size of the federal government today–your not going back to a federal goverment supported by tariffs anytime soon. You want to shrink the federal goverment–you better put in a 100 year plan now–it took us that long to get to this point and its going to take that long to wean ourselves from the various social safety nets if that is indeed what people want to do–and I don’t see broad support for this–when it comes down to it.

Peace,
Mark
 
One of the many issues is that a LOT of people have uneven income … up one year and down the next. Not everybody gets a check every two weeks and it is the same until they get an adjustment.

If you are self-employed or work on commission or have some form of incentive based compensation, then your money flow in unpredictable. Or if you get your work through a temp agency … even if you have the same job for ten years. Or if you are an independent contractor working for Boeing. Or Microsoft.

People who make tax policy don’t understand the idea of anything other than a regular paycheck collected from a regular employer on a regular basis.

They have their cubicle and their same paycheck and their pension and their medical and their two weeks or four weeks vacation, and assume everyone else gets the same sort of compensation.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

But the tax code is DESIGNED to penalize everyone except the person in the cubicle.
Would you care to elaborate on this with specific examples–to support the claim. I think you could make a case in the other direction–showing how the guy in the cubicle collecting his paycheck is penalized by the tax code–because he cannot get benefit from or take deductions allowed to the independent contractor.

Thanks,
Mark
 
Why do the republican resist raising taxes on the rich?Its been proven that it won’t produce more jobs to cut their taxes and they can’t say that its unfair because they already pay most of the taxes.When you compare how much they pay %wise compared to the amount of the wealth they control its surely obvious that they don’t pay enough.We know that the tax rate system has benifited the rich making them able to gain such wealth.Is it there lobbying to republican members(the spend much money in their support and actually get them elected through many means)the reasons the members are against it?
Well you can see the people that copy and paste comments and know nothing about the subject, The rich accoount for 20% of the wealth but already pay 44 % of the taxes. We need to get those people that are used to entitlements to start paying taxes. The rich got rich by using their talents and resources and did not wait for Government handouts For this they should be punished? These are the people that do provide jobs and again they must be punished to satisfy those people who expect and accept that the Government owes them a living
 
Why do the republican resist raising taxes on the rich?Its been proven that it won’t produce more jobs to cut their taxes and they can’t say that its unfair because they already pay most of the taxes.When you compare how much they pay %wise compared to the amount of the wealth they control its surely obvious that they don’t pay enough.We know that the tax rate system has benifited the rich making them able to gain such wealth.Is it there lobbying to republican members(the spend much money in their support and actually get them elected through many means)the reasons the members are against it?
You’re confusing “having money” with “the motivation to earn money.” If you raise taxes, the motivation by individuals to earn money will decrease, thereby decreasing tax revenues which benefit social programs. If the boss gave you a ten percent pay cut and told you that you better work just as hard and do just as good a job, would you feel like working equally hard, or slacking off since your take home pay is now lower, and your motivation and hope has been decreased??? In this example, the tax increase was “the boss.” Does that make sense? The govt. has known for 80 years that once taxes go above 36%, that’s the psychological break even point where people stop working.

How often do people forget the Beatles #1 hit “Can’t buy me love?” The US is suffering from a moral bankruptcy, not a shortage of money. Where’s the social justice in forcibly taking money from those who earned it in order to give it to those who did not so they could buy more liberal entertainment, bling and drugs? There would be more justice in allowing those who earned it to spend the money they earned.

If you want to Free people to allow them to create their own success, then isolate them from the more liberal entertainment, bling and drugs which ruins families and true love relationships. Then people can climb the ladder of success with less temptations, distractions and road blocks.
 
Well you can see the people that copy and paste comments and know nothing about the subject, The rich accoount for 20% of the wealth but already pay 44 % of the taxes.
And that’s only the beginning of it. Most people focus on federal income taxes, which is a fallacy. There are plenty of other taxes that the “regular folks” never see. Example: what percentage of the poor and middle class pay yacht tax? The answer: 0%. There are all sorts of other taxes that have cut-offs, which basically means only the wealthy are paying them; e.g., inheritance tax, mansion tax, etc.
 
i think it wrong to raise taxes on the rich.the bigger question is are the poor getting adequate compensation for labor,are their jobs available for all people,and all people have their basic needs met.its not fair to overtax any class of people.If the rich pay their fair share they shouldn’t be taxed more.if the system is unfair to the poor the government should help them.But ideally all citizens should be mindful of the poor and see that their needs are met.
 
To respond to some on this website regarding penalizing the rich. The rich are not being penalized by taxes. They are in fact benefiting from them. Our highways, infrastructure, public education system, police and fire departments, court systems, military. These for the most part do not benefit the poor as much as the rich. The poor aren’t likely to be robbed if they have little or nothing worth owning. They don’t usually use the court system to redress their grievances. They are homeless so the fire department wouldn’t be saving their home in case of a fire. Without a car to get to a menial job or no job they don’t have as much need of highways as the middle class and rich. The governments job is to create a level playing field for all of it’s citizens not the few and well off. Right now most major corporations have made over a trillion dollars in profits but are refusing to invest in jobs because of the weak economy? The lack of jobs is causing the weak economy! Jesus said if you have two coats give one to the poor. He said blessed are the poor for they shall be rich in spirit. He didn’t have a lot to say about the rich.
thechef3456
 
Why do the republican resist raising taxes on the rich? Its been proven that it won’t produce more jobs to cut their taxes and they can’t say that its unfair because they already pay most of the taxes. When you compare how much they pay %wise compared to the amount of the wealth they control its surely obvious that they don’t pay enough. We know that the tax rate system has benefitted the rich making them able to gain such wealth. Is it there lobbying to republican members(the spend much money in their support and actually get them elected through many means)the reasons the members are against it?
First, you have to define “the rich”. I am convinced that the average person considers himself poor and those earning more than he to be “rich’. So we have to decide just what constitutes “rich”.

Øbama campaigned on “getting the rich to pay more of their fair share.” This is not original, for Bill Clinton use the exact words to get congress to raise taxes “on those earning $300,000 or more." Clinton’s press secretary, Dee Dee Meyers was cornered in a press conference and force to admit that the increase would reach down as far as the $30,000 level, slightly above median and one-tenth what Clinton claimed.

Then consider this. Rich people are rich because they have more money than they need to live on at an average level of comfort. What do they do with the excess that is not taxed away? They invest it in the economy. This is the capital that makes capitalism work. If you tax more of that capital away, less is invested into the economy, hence, fewer jobs. If you have some excess money, you can do only two things with it: invest it or spend it. The government can only spend it, therefore, government spending is consumption unless it is for some form of infrastructure improvement like roads. Having worked in the government for many years, I can assure you that there is a lot of waste, for individuals will always take care of their own assets better than the government will.

About ten years ago, California was in dire straits, and the federal government offered $3B in bail-out aid. What did Sacramento politicians do? They resurrected over $3B in spending that had been shelved due to the extreme budget shortfall. This is how politicians think. They will always spend more than what is collected in taxes, hence a persistent deficit. So increasing taxes will not solve the problem; it just gives elected officials more to spend and a bigger incentive to borrow more, and for the wealthy to increase lobbying efforts, exacerbating the problem.

One reason that Republicans resist raising taxes on the rich is the “feedback effect”, AKA, unintended consequences that need to be considered. Rich people are powerful because they are rich. If you were super-wealthy you would have a different outlook on taxes from the “they’ve-got-so-much-so-let’s-make-them-pay-more” outlook you currently have, and you would likely use some of your wealth to limit your taxes. Enter lobbyists. Lobbying is such a lucrative business that they can afford to pay college students $30 an hour to hold a place in line for them to get into congressional hearings. The job of the lobbyist is to get congress to vote his clients’ activities favored treatment by the tax code. That’s why the code is so long. It also limits the ability of new entrepreneurs to provide competition with big corporations. Some years ago, when Microsoft started to make big bucks but was not lobbying, it was hit with an anti-trust lawsuit by the government. Gates learned his lesson, and the next year he spent money on lobbying. High tax rates therefore are also an incentive to lobby, and lobbying provides the politician with campaign contributions. So, for both of them, it is a win-win situation. If, on the other hand, there was a flat tax of, say, 10% of the top line [a big number] instead of, say 90% of the bottom line [a small number close to zero], there would be no incentive to lobby because a company wouldn’t be able to reduce its taxes.

About 20 years ago, the* Wall Street Journal *carried an article [wish I’d kept] about a survey done on ordinary people about how they felt about taxes. The average person, it turns out, is willing to try to hurt “the rich” even to the extent that he hurts himself in the process. Clearly, we need to do more to educate people on how the economy works.

Under the current progressive income tax system, “the rich” [those above median] pay essentially 100% of the tax burden. That means “the poor” [those below median] get a free ride. Is this right? I think not for several reasons. If everyone had to pay something, the poor would learn that it takes money to run a government and that they have the ability to give of themselves too.
 
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