Raising taxes on the rich

  • Thread starter Thread starter valentino
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Oh by the way, I think the housing crisis was also due to tax subsidies for buying a house, which incorrectly skewed the market demand for housing. I’ve got a few opinions about mortgages and the industry though…
I agree with this. For decades, the government promoted housing, and gave homebuyers tax benefits not available to renters. Not only that, but over the decades, most home mortgages ended up being federally insured or federally guaranteed: lenders were guaranteed against loss. When loans can be made without risk of loss, there’s little incentive to watch credit standards very closely. After all, the government wants everybody to own a home! Then the Federal Reserve kept interest rates artificially low, penalizing savers and benefiting borrowers, and artificially raising home prices in the process. Homebuyers bought and refinanced, and refinanced again, sometimes repeatedly, often taking cash out, under the mistaken belief that they had found a can’t-lose investment.
 
On the other hand, the November 2010 elections should have shocked you!

It wasn’t about charm.

It’s about fiscal responsibility.

How else can you explain the success of Chris Christie in New Jersey … a conservative was elected governor in the bluest of blue liberal states.

People do understand issues of taxation and its power to destroy the economy.

To paraphrase Marco Rubio: “which tax is going to increase jobs?”
Golden Boy lost his charm.
 
To some extent that’s true, but not entirely. The TARP “loans” to the solvent banks will be very profitable to the government, so that will be a “socialized” profit, if you will. The losses were borne by the stockholders of the banks that went under. So, in that instance, the losses were “privatized” and the gains were “socialized”.
Hello, nice to meet you :thankyou: – I was one of those stockholders. I was almost totally invested in banks when the crisis hit, and I lost maybe 85% of my money if I remember correctly. It was horrible.

You’re right the government didn’t just simply give them the money, which is why the common stock hasn’t recovered (I guess–I’m really not sure why the common stock recovery is so slow). And the government will eventually profit for getting what is essentially a warrant in the time of company distress. But the losses were socialized in the sense that the risk is now being born by the government. It’s more a matter of the government investing money into a company/industry that had failed.

So there are two possibilities:
  1. The banks recover, the government gets its money back with some profit, and the banks go on to profit without TARP requirements. In this case “everyone wins” but only because the risk was subsidized.
  2. The banks don’t recover. The losses are socialized.
You’re right in that #2 is really unlikely to happen, but I’m not sure #1 is really a case of privatizing the losses. As a stock holder, my losses without TARP would have been higher.
That actually happens a lot, though in less dramatic ways. I know a fellow who operates a protein-processing plant in a very wooded part of the country where there are sawmills. He wants to power his plant with byproducts of the sawmills. The state is telling him he has to install afterburners and scrubbers and all sorts of expensive things to his stacks. Presumably there is a public “gain” to that in the form of cleaner air, whatever. There again, it’s a private “loss” incurred for a public “gain”.
Depends on where your neutral point is. I don’t think the installation of scrubbers cleans previously dirty air in the environment, right? It cleans the air he’s dirtying with his operation. So it’s not really a public gain, it’s neutral for the public. He’s taking a loss so that the public doesn’t take the loss of polluted air. Personally I’m not sure to what degree we do that kind of thing. I’m not saying the environment must be left in an absolute neutral position by industry. I think your friend has some “right” to dirty the air. It’s all about the balance. Maybe in his case it’s a bit restrictive.
All taxes represent a private “loss” for a public “gain” when you get right down to it.
Hmmmm, I’m not sure about that. If you tax only one person, then spend that money on everyone yes. It’s a private loss and public gain. I think tax and spend is more complicated because certain people get taxed certain amounts, and other people benefit from certain benefits.
 
You have to factor in that voters are rationally ignorant. From the perspective of the average voter, acquiring the type of knowledge required to become an informed voter is not worth the effort since one vote one way or the other is meaningless. That’s why people fall back on superficial factors like, “He’s such a charming man.”
Indeed. Maybe that’s where we need to start … how to solve that problem? New technology? I don’t know.
 
I hope you understood the implication of what I wrote: if shutting down all coal plants means no one gets electricity, I’m not advocating we do that tomorrow. I do think we have a responsibility to prepare a reasonable transition. This link doesn’t really indicate to me that the coal plants weren’t given a chance, or that it will make people lose their electricty, etc. So basically I don’t think this one incident seems all that drastic.

Do I think they should shut it down? I don’t know. I do think that if a coal plant isn’t showing reasonable cooperation with requirements, it’s justified to shut them down provided the external consequences are minimized.
Not sure what that means… if you shut down a bunch of coal fired plants then where are you going to get your electricity from? Roughly 50% of our electricity is from coal-fired boilers.

There are a bunch of references and links.

Start here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=569419&highlight=coal+electricity

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=570106&highlight=coal+electricity

humanevents.com/article.php?id=44461
 
Not sure what that means… if you shut down a bunch of coal fired plants then where are you going to get your electricity from? Roughly 50% of our electricity is from coal-fired boilers.
It means answering your question before you do it 😉 You’re question is exactly right, and needs an answer first. But it doesn’t need a global answer before you shut down the first coal plant. It can be localized.

FWIW there are other questions that probably need to be answered as well, when shutting down a plant affects society in other ways (not just lack of power), and the owner of the plant.

Everything is a balance based on how our world is today and the options we have.
 
Here’s an interesting quote:
The condemnation of the rich is one of the strongest themes found in the gospels. Some Christians have tried to explain this away by claiming the “needle’s eye” for which the camel going through would be easier than for a rich man to enter heaven was actually a gate in Jerusalem. The proclamations against the rich have become so disassociated with conservative religious beliefs that Obama’s “spread the wealth around” comment has largely been connected with the pre-Marxist saying “to each according to his needs” without any acknowledgment that it originates from Acts 4:35, which describes the apostles disowning all possessions and holding all things common “according as he had need.”
As C.S. Lewis himself writes in Mere Christianity, a Christian society would [have] “no manufacture of silly luxuries and then of sillier advertisements to persuade us to buy them. There would be no ‘swank,’ no ‘side,” no putting on airs. To that extent a Christian society would now be what we now call Leftist…. We should feel that its economic life was very socialistic and, in that sense, ‘advanced’, but that its family life and its code of manners were rather old fashioned–perhaps even ceremonious and aristocratic.”
Ayn Rand, who has been so much an inspiration to not just Greenspan but Christians like Reagan, Armey, Delay, Lott, Limbaugh, Coulter, and George Will, mocked Christianity as “the best kindergarten of communism possible” and based her philosophy on the worship of selfishness that many Christians accuse all atheists of. Her influence on Greenspan’s political combination of government intervention-hating Libertarianism and government intervention-loving corporate socialism inspired Christianity Today to call her the “Goddess of the Great Recession.”
bahumuth.bitfreedom.com/the-friesian-correspondence-letter-4c-democrats-believe-islamic-fundamentalism-is-fully-redeemed-by-its-hatred-of-america
 
And another:

… Even supposing economic regulation to be a good idea, the suggestion that the present regime ought to be given still more power, or that such power would not certainly be abused (might campaign supporters find their businesses mysteriously immune from prosecution?), really requires much greater justification than it has thus far been given. Say what you will about Home Depot, but it is not responsible for confiscating 40 percent of my income for purposes I find morally repugnant; neither does it wage aggressive war on Third World nations or oversee an educational system that produces dumbed-down “multicultural” idiots. That anyone would want to give this creature still more power, for any reason, suggests a profound lack of prudence, judgment, and good sense.

Those who care to support locally based and smaller-scale agriculture have already been doing so for two decades now by means of community-supported agriculture, which is booming. On a purely voluntary basis, people who wish to support local agriculture pay several hundred dollars at the beginning of the year to provide the farmer with the capital he needs; they then receive locally grown produce for the rest of the year. The organizers of this movement, rather than wasting their time and ours complaining about the need for state intervention, actually did something: they put together a voluntary program that has enjoyed considerable success across the country. Perhaps, if distributists feel as strongly about their position as they claim, this example can provide a model of how their time might be better spent.

mises.org/daily/1062
 
Hi, Copperblade,

I think we are in agreement on a number of areas. 🙂
Yes, it’s quite a problem. I don’t know if we really disagree or not though. Like I might have mentioned, I’m in favor of regulation in lieu of government spending: privatize and regulate. .
The world is far too complex to not have 'reasonable regulations" in place. When we can be poisoned today by chemicals with a total volume of 1 part in 1 billion parts - we had better know what it is we are put into the air and drinking water! The key, of course is the ‘reasonable’ side … just what is appropriate - shutting down all of the oil wells in the Gulf of Mexico because of the BP disaster? theenergycollective.com/nathanaelbaker/55040/bp-seeks-permission-resume-offshore-oil-drilling-gulf-mexico or allowing proven dangerous coal mine sites to continue operation only later to find out there were two sets of books nytimes.com/2011/06/30/us/30mine.html While I, too, am in favor of regulation over government spending - it is not a simpe process.
I want to leverage the invisible hand, not replace it and not let it just run completely freely. But of course I’m assuming relatively good and appropriate regulation, which may be unrealistic. .
I think it can be done - but, it people who actually understand an industry AND those who actually understand public health - and both are looking at real problems. For example, every drug in the world today has side effects … even or should I say, especially, aspirin. We would probably all like a drug to just do its job and provide no unwanted side effects. Now that is unrealistic. But, what kinds of side effects are you willing to live with so that? you can use this drug? That is where we must trust our physicians and pharmacists… and dare I say drug companies to be honest adjustbacktohealth.com/articles/aa187.htm Life is very complex, and like the guys from “Ghostbusters” were fond of saying, “Who you gonna trust?”
I guess I just don’t like “too big to fail” whether it’s the banks or it’s government. I’m willing to do my part, but not all of it, and not without cooperation and fixes for the future. I’m guessing most people feel that way.
You know… I do not like that either! 🙂 The most basic concept of capitalism is that success is rewarded and failure is punished. This did not happen with Lehman Brothers. And, in hind-sight - they really should have gone down the tube! But, to publicly admit a personal weakness … had I been the President, I would have not let that happen (because of the history leading up to Great Depression). In second guessing the Sec of the Tres and the Federal Reserve and the assorted bankers all huddeled around the table just looking at the world wide melt-down that could easily have happened (hey, it ain’t over yet!) I would have folded. So, here we all are on the financial ‘Titanic’ looking at where the life boats should have been - and seeing a more picturesque view of the sea as it gets closer to the place where we have our feet! :eek:
And if you want a more obvious example, just go back a few hundred years. Not even the monarchs in feudal Europe (a true free capitalist system) had the luxury of a modern-day toilet–they just had more than their subjects.
.
Now, I got this from another of your posts … and I think there is an error here! 😃 The feudal system in Europe (9th - 15th Centuries) was no more capitalistic than the man in the moon. Honest - it was truly well named … it was a feudal system. Peasants worked the land and the landLORD was responsible for protecting them - while taxing them with great liberality of their crops and farm produce. No commerce to speak of, little trade and no investments… mainly because there was no capital (a most necessary ingredient) 😃

God bless
 
The world is far too complex to not have 'reasonable regulations" in place. When we can be poisoned today by chemicals with a total volume of 1 part in 1 billion parts - we had better know what it is we are put into the air and drinking water! The key, of course is the ‘reasonable’ side … just what is appropriate - shutting down all of the oil wells in the Gulf of Mexico because of the BP disaster?theenergycollective.com/nathanaelbaker/55040/bp-seeks-permission-resume-offshore-oil-drilling-gulf-mexico or allowing proven dangerous coal mine sites to continue operation only later to find out there were two sets of books nytimes.com/2011/06/30/us/30mine.html While I, too, am in favor of regulation over government spending - it is not a simpe process.

I think it can be done - but, it people who actually understand an industry AND those who actually understand public health - and both are looking at real problems. For example, every drug in the world today has side effects … even or should I say, especially, aspirin. We would probably all like a drug to just do its job and provide no unwanted side effects. Now that is unrealistic. But, what kinds of side effects are you willing to live with so that? you can use this drug? That is where we must trust our physicians and pharmacists… and dare I say drug companies to be honest adjustbacktohealth.com/articles/aa187.htm Life is very complex, and like the guys from “Ghostbusters” were fond of saying, “Who you gonna trust?”
You know… I do not like that either! 🙂 The most basic concept of capitalism is that success is rewarded and failure is punished. This did not happen with Lehman Brothers. And, in hind-sight - they really should have gone down the tube! But, to publicly admit a personal weakness … had I been the President, I would have not let that happen (because of the history leading up to Great Depression). In second guessing the Sec of the Tres and the Federal Reserve and the assorted bankers all huddeled around the table just looking at the world wide melt-down that could easily have happened (hey, it ain’t over yet!) I would have folded. So, here we all are on the financial ‘Titanic’ looking at where the life boats should have been - and seeing a more picturesque view of the sea as it gets closer to the place where we have our feet! :eek:
Yes, I think I agree with you. I don’t think TARP was a bad choice. It was bad that we needed it.

Even if we assume that shutting down all oil drilling was the right thing to do, I think we can at least admit it is a very clumsy way to handle things, and shows that there was something amiss about the system in place. In other words, it really should never have gotten to the point where you felt you had to do that. Just like it should never have gotten to the point where we needed TARP. Hindsight is 20/20.
Now, I got this from another of your posts … and I think there is an error here! 😃 The feudal system in Europe (9th - 15th Centuries) was no more capitalistic than the man in the moon. Honest - it was truly well named … it was a feudal system. Peasants worked the land and the landLORD was responsible for protecting them - while taxing them with great liberality of their crops and farm produce. No commerce to speak of, little trade and no investments… mainly because there was no capital (a most necessary ingredient) 😃
You’re right in the sense that feudalism itself isn’t capitalistic for the peasants 😉 But that’s kind of my point: unrestraint capitalism destroys itself. Like I made a hypothetical example with Walmart before, if the government gets too small, giant corporations become the de-facto government. So it’s true that I don’t think feudalism represents “true capitalism”–it just represents what some people think capitalism should be allowed to do. (After all, the peasants can vote with their feet, right?!) As Chesterson said, “Too much capitalism does not mean too many capitalists, but too few capitalists.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism
 
And another:

… Even supposing economic regulation to be a good idea, the suggestion that the present regime ought to be given still more power, or that such power would not certainly be abused (might campaign supporters find their businesses mysteriously immune from prosecution?), really requires much greater justification than it has thus far been given. Say what you will about Home Depot, but it is not responsible for confiscating 40 percent of my income for purposes I find morally repugnant; neither does it wage aggressive war on Third World nations or oversee an educational system that produces dumbed-down “multicultural” idiots. That anyone would want to give this creature still more power, for any reason, suggests a profound lack of prudence, judgment, and good sense.

Those who care to support locally based and smaller-scale agriculture have already been doing so for two decades now by means of community-supported agriculture, which is booming. On a purely voluntary basis, people who wish to support local agriculture pay several hundred dollars at the beginning of the year to provide the farmer with the capital he needs; they then receive locally grown produce for the rest of the year. The organizers of this movement, rather than wasting their time and ours complaining about the need for state intervention, actually did something: they put together a voluntary program that has enjoyed considerable success across the country. Perhaps, if distributists feel as strongly about their position as they claim, this example can provide a model of how their time might be better spent.

mises.org/daily/1062
Your quoted website looks way more professional than my quoted website… 😦
 
Hello, nice to meet you :thankyou: – I was one of those stockholders. I was almost totally invested in banks when the crisis hit, and I lost maybe 85% of my money if I remember correctly. It was horrible.

You’re right the government didn’t just simply give them the money, which is why the common stock hasn’t recovered (I guess–I’m really not sure why the common stock recovery is so slow). And the government will eventually profit for getting what is essentially a warrant in the time of company distress. But the losses were socialized in the sense that the risk is now being born by the government. It’s more a matter of the government investing money into a company/industry that had failed.

So there are two possibilities:
  1. The banks recover, the government gets its money back with some profit, and the banks go on to profit without TARP requirements. In this case “everyone wins” but only because the risk was subsidized.
  2. The banks don’t recover. The losses are socialized.
You’re right in that #2 is really unlikely to happen, but I’m not sure #1 is really a case of privatizing the losses. As a stock holder, my losses without TARP would have been higher.

Depends on where your neutral point is. I don’t think the installation of scrubbers cleans previously dirty air in the environment, right? It cleans the air he’s dirtying with his operation. So it’s not really a public gain, it’s neutral for the public. He’s taking a loss so that the public doesn’t take the loss of polluted air. Personally I’m not sure to what degree we do that kind of thing. I’m not saying the environment must be left in an absolute neutral position by industry. I think your friend has some “right” to dirty the air. It’s all about the balance. Maybe in his case it’s a bit restrictive.

Hmmmm, I’m not sure about that. If you tax only one person, then spend that money on everyone yes. It’s a private loss and public gain. I think tax and spend is more complicated because certain people get taxed certain amounts, and other people benefit from certain benefits.
Sorry about your losses. Were they on paper only, or did any of them actually tank? If the former, (which it sounds like) one needs to remember that one hasn’t gained or lost until one sells. When will banks fully recover their value? I don’t know, but I expect it will be a long time. Banks can’t make money if people won’t borrow, and right now, people just won’t. Banks’ best business is in the business sector, and business borrowing is particularly flat right now.

Nevertheless, I’m optimistic about some banks’ future prospects, particularly some of those that have, through acquiring failed institutions, widened their “footprint” into particularly good, relatively underserved “retail banking” areas, and are still strong.

For those, at least, the risk to the government is not much greater than the government’s risk it creates for itself in other ways.

One could go on forever about what is public gain and what isn’t. Is efficient resource use plus expenditures on being perhaps “over clean” a public gain? In a bureaucratic sort of way it is, or according to some environmentally-minded, it might be so considered. TIF financing might be another example of (hopefully temporary) private loss creating a public gain, because they often result in infrastructure improvements that go well beyond the conceivable use of the private concern financing the improvements.

I am a poor one to discuss the utility of taxes with, because I am convinced the government wastes vast resources, and truly hate it that it does.
 
It means answering your question before you do it 😉 You’re question is exactly right, and needs an answer first. But it doesn’t need a global answer before you shut down the first coal plant. It can be localized.

FWIW there are other questions that probably need to be answered as well, when shutting down a plant affects society in other ways (not just lack of power), and the owner of the plant.

Everything is a balance based on how our world is today and the options we have.
If you read my links, then you would know that the EPA is shutting things down with full knowledge that there are no alternatives available.

Remember what Mr. Obama said, “the cost of electricity will necessarily skyrocket”.
 
Sorry about your losses. Were they on paper only, or did any of them actually tank? If the former, (which it sounds like) one needs to remember that one hasn’t gained or lost until one sells.
Thanks. It turned out ok. I was doing all my investing in the market out of a Roth IRA, which I had been the primary place I was putting savings for the previous few years and was a lot of money to me. I did that because I didn’t want to deal with the tax forms every year from having to deal with stocks, but it also helped limit myself on how much money I “gambled” in the market.

I did sell the common shares, but being a retirement account I couldn’t even take off the losses on my taxes unless I withdrew the account and suffered the early withdraw penalty. I almost did that because it seemed like a benefit at the time, but I guess it’s lucky I didn’t. I was able to make some good purchases though, and rode all the way back up to my initial investment, but it took 2 years. When I look at the numbers, I didn’t do significantly better than the market, but definitely better than holding on to those bank common stocks.
When will banks fully recover their value? I don’t know, but I expect it will be a long time. Banks can’t make money if people won’t borrow, and right now, people just won’t. Banks’ best business is in the business sector, and business borrowing is particularly flat right now.
Nevertheless, I’m optimistic about some banks’ future prospects, particularly some of those that have, through acquiring failed institutions, widened their “footprint” into particularly good, relatively underserved “retail banking” areas, and are still strong.
For those, at least, the risk to the government is not much greater than the government’s risk it creates for itself in other ways.
One could go on forever about what is public gain and what isn’t. Is efficient resource use plus expenditures on being perhaps “over clean” a public gain? In a bureaucratic sort of way it is, or according to some environmentally-minded, it might be so considered. TIF financing might be another example of (hopefully temporary) private loss creating a public gain, because they often result in infrastructure improvements that go well beyond the conceivable use of the private concern financing the improvements.
I am a poor one to discuss the utility of taxes with, because I am convinced the government wastes vast resources, and truly hate it that it does.
Where do you think most of the government waste is? I think you might be right, but I suspect the DoD for most of it, and no one wants to deal with that.
 
Church-run school suffers intimidation

A Church-run school in Madhya Pradesh is being intimidated by the student wing of the Bharatiya Janata Party (People’s Party) for denying admission to a student, its administrators say.

School manager, Father John Victor, said yesterday that Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP) activists are trying to force St. Jude’s Higher Secondary School to admit a Grade 5 student.
ucanews.com/2011/07/08/church-run-school-suffers-intimidation/

all must read this…
 
We know that the tax rate system has benifited the rich making them able to gain such wealth.Is it there lobbying to republican members…
just read this news…the world is changing…ucanews.com/2011/07/08/more-temples-than-churches-in-taiwan/
Yes,they have benefitted from the system.the socialistic system of Obama and all previous democrats have made that possible.Yes,there are rep.lobbyists who want the rich to become even wealthier.But they aren’t the bright ones.Just keep letting dem.run their system and the rich will get wealthier regardlesss of the lobbyists.The lobbyists are just more greedy and think the rich aren’t get wealthier fast enough.The democrats let this tax system which we have today stay in place and have always okayed it in the past.
 
Hi, Davidmlamb,

I am working my way through your suggested readings - and I must say in all candor, the Chruch’s teach have had to pass through the filter of your socialist lens

I must confess I had not read this section in the CCC and read your items and a few more… 🙂 Now, I have not gotten to the encyclicals - so, if you would kindly recommend the one you think best demonstrates the position you hold - I will get right to it. Thanks.

Concerning the CCC sections you have provided. At the very least, your stated position is really not as clearly or as forcefully made by the CCC as you have presented. Here is an extensive quote from these items in the CCC. I have taken the liberty to underline the significant items to your position.

“…and you can read them in the Catechism especially CCC 2402-2434 and CCC 1897-1912.”

1908 Second, the common good requires the social well-being and development of the group itself. Development is the epitome of all social duties.** Certainly, it is the proper function of authority to arbitrate, in the name of the common good, between various particular interests; but it should make accessible to each what is needed to lead a truly human life: food, clothing, health, work, education and culture, suitable information, the right to establish a family,** and so on.28

1925 The common good consists of three essential elements: respect for and promotion of the fundamental rights of the person; prosperity, or the development of the spiritual and temporal goods of society; the peace and security of the group and of its members.

1927 **It is the role of the state to defend and promote the common good of civil society. **The common good of the whole human family calls for an organization of society on the international level.

2405 Goods of production - material or immaterial - such as land, factories, practical or artistic skills, oblige their possessors to employ them in ways that will benefit the greatest number. Those who hold goods for use and consumption should use them with moderation, reserving the better part for guests, for the sick and the poor.

2424 A theory that makes profit the exclusive norm and ultimate end of economic activity is morally unacceptable. The disordered desire for money cannot but produce perverse effects. It is one of the causes of the many conflicts which disturb the social order.204

2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.207 Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for "there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market."208 Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.

2429** Everyone has the right of economic initiative; everyone should make legitimate use of his talents to contribute to the abundance that will benefit all and to harvest the just fruits of his labor.** He should seek to observe regulations issued by legitimate authority for the sake of the common good

2431 The responsibility of the state. “Economic activity, especially the activity of a market economy, cannot be conducted in an institutional, juridical, or political vacuum. **On the contrary, it presupposes sure guarantees of individual freedom and private property, as well as a stable currency and efficient public services. Hence the principal task of the state is to guarantee this security, so that those who work and produce can enjoy the fruits of their labors and thus feel encouraged to work efficiently and honestly. . . . Another task of the state is that of overseeing and directing the exercise of human rights in the economic sector. However, primary responsibility in this area belongs not to the state but to individuals and to the various groups and associations which make up society.”**217

2432 Those responsible for business enterprises are responsible to society for the economic and ecological effects of their operations.218 They have an obligation to consider the good of persons and not only the increase of profits. **Profits are necessary, however. They make possible the investments that ensure the future of a business and they guarantee employment. **

2435 Recourse to a strike is morally legitimate when it cannot be avoided, or at least when it is necessary to obtain a proportionate benefit.** It becomes morally unacceptable when accompanied by violence, or when objectives are included that are not directly linked to working conditions or are contrary to the common good.**

There is a lot here - but, no one in the Magisterium is waving the flag or Socialism in order to get every aspect of the economy - and human life itself ‘equal’. And, I think their glowing condemnation is something to consider.

God bless
Tom, you’re the one who has called me a socialist. I have never claimed to be a socialist and neither do I consider myself to be a socialist. I am a Catholic, and everything I have stated is Catholic, which you proved quite nicely in red letters.

Peace,
Dave
 
Hi, Copperblade,

I think we are in agreement on a number of areas. 🙂

The world is far too complex to not have 'reasonable regulations" in place. When we can be poisoned today by chemicals with a total volume of 1 part in 1 billion parts - we had better know what it is we are put into the air and drinking water! The key, of course is the ‘reasonable’ side … just what is appropriate - shutting down all of the oil wells in the Gulf of Mexico because of the BP disaster? theenergycollective.com/nathanaelbaker/55040/bp-seeks-permission-resume-offshore-oil-drilling-gulf-mexico or allowing proven dangerous coal mine sites to continue operation only later to find out there were two sets of books nytimes.com/2011/06/30/us/30mine.html While I, too, am in favor of regulation over government spending - it is not a simpe process.

I think it can be done - but, it people who actually understand an industry AND those who actually understand public health - and both are looking at real problems. For example, every drug in the world today has side effects … even or should I say, especially, aspirin. We would probably all like a drug to just do its job and provide no unwanted side effects. Now that is unrealistic. But, what kinds of side effects are you willing to live with so that? you can use this drug? That is where we must trust our physicians and pharmacists… and dare I say drug companies to be honest adjustbacktohealth.com/articles/aa187.htm Life is very complex, and like the guys from “Ghostbusters” were fond of saying, “Who you gonna trust?”

You know… I do not like that either! 🙂 The most basic concept of capitalism is that success is rewarded and failure is punished. This did not happen with Lehman Brothers. And, in hind-sight - they really should have gone down the tube! But, to publicly admit a personal weakness … had I been the President, I would have not let that happen (because of the history leading up to Great Depression). In second guessing the Sec of the Tres and the Federal Reserve and the assorted bankers all huddeled around the table just looking at the world wide melt-down that could easily have happened (hey, it ain’t over yet!) I would have folded. So, here we all are on the financial ‘Titanic’ looking at where the life boats should have been - and seeing a more picturesque view of the sea as it gets closer to the place where we have our feet! :eek:

Now, I got this from another of your posts … and I think there is an error here! 😃 The feudal system in Europe (9th - 15th Centuries) was no more capitalistic than the man in the moon. Honest - it was truly well named … it was a feudal system. Peasants worked the land and the landLORD was responsible for protecting them - while taxing them with great liberality of their crops and farm produce. No commerce to speak of, little trade and no investments… mainly because there was no capital (a most necessary ingredient) 😃

God bless
Is what gets my goat is that as sorry as the bail out was the banks spent so much of the money giving huge bonuses to the presidents who were responsible in part for the bail out being necessary.They rewarded them for their mistakes and used our money to do it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top