Raising taxes on the rich

[Monte_RCMS]

In one of its relatively saner moments, The PBS News Hour had on the intellectual giant Sister Souljah en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sister_Souljah to discuss the then economic situation. Her complaint with tax cuts “for the rich” was that they wouldn’t spend it, as though spending was the only way to stimulate the economy. She was obviously an authority out of her field.

There have been consistent criticisms of people who buy yachts and private jet planes.

The response has been the the customers quit buying yachts and private jet planes. Which threw thousands of Americans out of work!

But you are right … wealthy people usual reinvest their money … not horde it and although they buy expensive blingy things, from time to time, most of the money is invested.

But, when I read Obama’s criticism of corporate jets, I decided not to buy one. I saved $50 million that I would have spent on a BBJ. Instead I got the money in cash and used it to stuff my mattress with.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Every single time I read about how much the wealthiest Americans are actually paying in taxes I just get more confused. When I try to study the tax code on the internet to see what’s really going on all I get is a bunch of partisan nonsense.

How much are they actually paying, and how much of a “burden” is it to them really, after all of the loopholes are factored in!? Is there anyone that actually truly understands our ludicrously complicated tax code that can answer me!!? Because I can’t honestly make a judgement on the morality of any particular political system unless I have a basic understanding of it.

Have you actually read the IRS tax code? Not the articles in the media, but the actual code?

For fun, visit www.irs.gov and look up the publications dealing with depreciation.

Or, my favorite, Pub 590 … which is the publication dealing with IRA’s. 100 pages. Just for stuff affecting you and me.

Actually, it’s more than 100 pages and it changes every year.

The tax code is 65,000 pages and you need to know every syllable and punctuation mark, because even misreading ONE COMMA, can mess up your whole day.

AND the IRS continuously audits all those rich people and biggie corporations.

Nobody can get away with anything … not for very long. Even that Enron bunch got caught and went to jail except for one guy who got a heart attack and died.

 

[davidmlamb]

We can tax the rich at a 95% rate, but it still won’t be enough to cover Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, Unemployment Benefits, Food Stamps, and a host of entitlement programs.

I wish there were more rich people. Rich people spend more money, and that creates jobs for all kinds of people.

A rich person creating a job is meaningless unless the jobs they generate yield a living wage for their employees. A lot of things need to change in our society and it should start with tax reform in order to create a just tax system that supports our government and keeps it solvent without compromising public infrastructures and services which supports the general welfare of the public and national defense. The government has a duty to ensure that a free market society serves everyone who is able and willing to work so that wealth flows in a manner that assures just wages and benefits for the working class.

Social Security also needs to be reformed so that only those who need social security are entitled to it. Those whose private or public service retirement pensions afford them a living at 3X the poverty level should only receive a very reduced benefit. In addition, they should have to pay a 1000-5000 dollar annual deductable (depending on their retirment income level) before they can receive Medicare coverage.

Peace,
David

 

[RobbyS]

A rich person creating a job is meaningless unless the jobs they generate yield a living wage for their employees. A lot of things need to change in our society and it should start with tax reform in order to create a just tax system that supports our government and keeps it solvent without compromising public infrastructures and services which supports the general welfare of the public and national defense. The government has a duty to ensure that a free market society serves everyone who is able and willing to work so that wealth flows in a manner that assures just wages and benefits for the working class.

Social Security also needs to be reformed so that only those who need social security are entitled to it. Those whose private or public service retirement pensions afford them a living at 3X the poverty level should only receive a very reduced benefit. In addition, they should have to pay a 1000-5000 dollar annual deductable (depending on their retirment income level) before they can receive Medicare coverage.

Peace,
David

Even if we were certain what a “just” system should be, You cannot do this by relying heavily on an earned income tax system. It hits very heavily on the small businessman who is trying to accumulate capital, because it deprives him of cash flow. It punishes the moderately successful businessman and prevent him from becoming truly rich. The truly rich man is one who has accumulated a significant fortune whose annual increase the laws allow him to shelter from taxation in a way he cannot shelter earned income. In other words, the graduated income tax is unjust because , ironically, it protects the truly rich from the competition of those aspiring to become rich. No wonder that the likes of Ted Kennedy, one of the “idle rich,” was willing to raise taxes. They really didn’t touch on his fortune. The truly rich can always find tax dodges that ther lesser rich cannot. Warren Buffet pays a smaller portion of his actual income in taxes than a tax attorney who works for him. This would be true if you jacked up the top rate to 90%. Untilmately, the truly rich can simply take his wealth out of the country to a more friendly environment.

 

[RobbyS]

There have been consistent criticisms of people who buy yachts and private jet planes.

The response has been the the customers quit buying yachts and private jet planes. Which threw thousands of Americans out of work!

But you are right … wealthy people usual reinvest their money … not horde it and although they buy expensive blingy things, from time to time, most of the money is invested.

But, when I read Obama’s criticism of corporate jets, I decided not to buy one. I saved $50 million that I would have spent on a BBJ. Instead I got the money in cash and used it to stuff my mattress with.

Irony coming from Obama, who keeps Air Force I in constant motion. And Nancy Pelosi who used a large government jet to fly her from DC to SF every weekend.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

A rich person creating a job is meaningless unless the jobs they generate yield a living wage for their employees. A lot of things need to change in our society and it should start with tax reform in order to create a just tax system that supports our government and keeps it solvent without compromising public infrastructures and services which supports the general welfare of the public and national defense. The government has a duty to ensure that a free market society serves everyone who is able and willing to work so that wealth flows in a manner that assures just wages and benefits for the working class.

Social Security also needs to be reformed so that only those who need social security are entitled to it. Those whose private or public service retirement pensions afford them a living at 3X the poverty level should only receive a very reduced benefit. In addition, they should have to pay a 1000-5000 dollar annual deductable (depending on their retirment income level) before they can receive Medicare coverage.

Peace,
David

From the very beginning, everyone was told that Social Security is only a supplement to their personal retirement savings.

YOU can have savings, but the tax laws … you know … all those transactions you must report on your Schedule D? … are “difficult” and almost “draconian”. Have you ever actually looked at a Schedule D? … BUT, the government set up some tax-deferred systems … various kinds of IRA’s. They do get taxed, but not every year. But, go ahead and read Pub 590! I dare you. Just call the IRS and ask for Pub 590. It’s 100+ pages and it applies to YOU and it changes every year!

And with respect to a just wage … it is just what we need: a government bureaucrat telling an employer that he isn’t paying his employees enough.

The issue of a living wage only applies if the employee is a serf. An indentured servant.

Because if the employee is YOU, then YOU have an obligation … and in the United States, you have the means via ample educational opportunities and resources … to get trained and then quit your icky job and get a better paying job

You are not STUCK in a bad situation.

You can and many people do improve their situation.

Happens every day.

All the time.

Be a Web master!

Publish a book on LULU!

Sell stuff on eBay!!

But it means you have to get out of your “comfort zone” … get back to school … start knocking on doors … ask around if people know of someone who needs help.

Can’t sit around typing on Catholic Answers Forums all day.

And a lot of really good jobs are not in air conditioned cubicles.

[One of my friends took a job selling used cars … he was broke … living with friends … turned out he was a “natural” … broke every sales record. Everybody loved him. Had tons of customers and referrals. Got a company car, even.] [Commission sales can be great … or terrible … or great, again … it changes all the time … and you are free to seek a better opportunity in a heartbeat … been there, done that, got the T-shirt]

[A lot of my friends got jobs thru temp agencies … one woman well over age 60, registered with ten agencies … five were not so nice; the other five treated her like a queen … she got a job as a typist, but she had such a positive attitude that they would not let her leave when her assignment was over. For a while we though she would end up as president of the company … in the end she got a job as president of another company. No joke.]

[Visit the thread about all the shale jobs … they pay extremely well.]

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Irony coming from Obama, who keeps Air Force I in constant motion. And Nancy Pelosi who used a large government jet to fly her from DC to SF every weekend.

Somebody published her bar tab on that government jet.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

I interrupted my Web surfing to bring you all this:

lucianne.com/thread/?artnum=627367

Original article:

express.co.uk/posts/view/259399/259399

 

[sedonaman]

There have been consistent criticisms of people who buy yachts and private jet planes.

The response has been the the customers quit buying yachts and private jet planes. Which threw thousands of Americans out of work!

I remember that.

But you are right … wealthy people usual reinvest their money … not horde it and although they buy expensive blingy things, from time to time, most of the money is invested.

But, when I read Obama’s criticism of corporate jets, I decided not to buy one. I saved $50 million that I would have spent on a BBJ. Instead I got the money in cash and used it to stuff my mattress with.

LMAO !!!

 

[sedonaman]

townhall.com/political-cartoons/chipbok/2011/04/19/86825

 

[sedonaman]

A rich person creating a job is meaningless unless the jobs they generate yield a living wage for their employees.

If the wage was not a “living” wage, workers wouldn’t take the jobs because, by definition, they would starve to death. Since there are beaucoup jobs that don’t pay what their critics call a “living” wage, one would expect to see people dying in the streets like in Calcutta. Since there aren’t, we have to conclude that workers have made other arrangements, like taking the job while living at home, or sharing an apartment. I worked part time to pay for college; the jobs were not enough to support a family of four [the usual yardstick] but they put me through college. I would not call those jobs “meaningless”. So your conclusion is incorrect.

A lot of things need to change in our society and it should start with tax reform in order to create a just tax system that supports our government and keeps it solvent …

There is a lot you need to learn about government that they didn’t tell you in your poli sci courses. It will never be solvent as long as people keep voting themselves money from the treasury and politicians keep accommodating. Also, see my post 298 where it says

About ten years ago, California was in dire straits, and the federal government offered $3B in bail-out aid. What did Sacramento politicians do? They resurrected over $3B in spending that had been shelved due to the extreme budget shortfall. This is how politicians think. They will always spend more than what is collected in taxes, hence a persistent deficit. So increasing taxes will not solve the problem; it just gives elected officials more to spend and a bigger incentive to borrow more, and for the wealthy to increase lobbying efforts, exacerbating the problem.

 

[davidmlamb]

And with respect to a just wage … it is just what we need: a government bureaucrat telling an employer that he isn’t paying his employees enough.

The issue of a living wage only applies if the employee is a serf. An indentured servant.

Because if the employee is YOU, then YOU have an obligation … and in the United States, you have the means via ample educational opportunities and resources … to get trained and then quit your icky job and get a better paying job

You are not STUCK in a bad situation.

You can and many people do improve their situation.

Happens every day.

All the time.

Be a Web master!

Publish a book on LULU!

Sell stuff on eBay!!

But it means you have to get out of your “comfort zone” … get back to school … start knocking on doors … ask around if people know of someone who needs help.

Can’t sit around typing on Catholic Answers Forums all day.

And a lot of really good jobs are not in air conditioned cubicles.]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but your conclusions are not in line with the teachings of the Church or the gospel. Furthermore, you are making an assumption that I am a person with a ****** job who spends all day blogging on Catholic Answers. I am an engineer and make a pretty decent salary. I went back to college when I was 42 and graduated with my Bachelors degree in Engineering Physics in 2006. I then went on to get my Master’s degree In Materials Engineering at age 49 and then had to face age discrimination in order to get a job which took me 2 years to find. I was robbed of my dignity by a cruel an unjust system supported by the right wing branch of society.

I worked at Walmart at an unjust wage for 5 years and had to supplement my income with food stamps and the VA provided my health care for free. I went from a middle class income of about 46K a year to less then 12K a year (due to a debilitating health situation) until finally getting the position I have now.

In that time God taught me a valuable lesson. He taught me that although my situation was awful, there are others who are worse, who do not have the mental capacity to get an education like I did, and those who do are losing that opportunity when the government cuts the public services that assist them with an education.

Everyone has the moral obligation to improve their life to the best of their abilities. But not all abilities are equal while all human beings have equal human dignity that must be fought for and upheld by a just society. Because this is the case, every employer has a moral obligation to pay a just wage. Every wealthy person has both a private and a public moral obligation to support the common good with their wealth. Too much is given much more is required. Not single piece of wealth or property owned by the rich, the poor, or the middle class belongs to them exclusively, we are only stewards left in charge with God’s wealth and at the end of our lives we will give an account to God for that stewardship.

The rich have been entrusted with the greater wealth to employ others in such a way that their employees can support themselves and their families. That is what President Obama meant by “spreading the wealth around.” Improving ones lot in life is the accumulation of wealth and once they have reached a “safe place” they then have been entrusted with a greater moral obligation to both public and private contributions. I now pay much more in taxes then I earned during my years in poverty yet I am thankful to God for what I get to keep and recognize that my taxes as well as my charitable contributions (tithes and offerings) support the common good.

If we are faithful Catholics then we are faithful stewards of what we have been entrusted with. If we are faithful Catholics then we do not only consider our needs, but first consider the needs of the community we live in. We are to love our neighbor as we love ourselves for if we cannot love our neighbor who we can see, then we cannot love God who we cannot see. Whatever you do to others and how we treat others we are doing the same to God. We would never pay Jesus the carpenter the least amount of a salary we can get away with so we could keep more of our wealth. We would never say to Jesus, “Hey go back to college and improve your situation.” Yet that is exactly what so many Catholic employers do. So I will end this message with the words of Jesus:

“No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

Who are you serving?

Peace,

David

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Here is what I have learned … that among other things we have NO RIGHT to judge others.

I have known people on the Forbes 400 list. Billionaires.

And I got to know them well enough to know that many are selfless.

Yes, they have corporate jets. Nice ones. But those jets become “time machines” … these are very talented and gifted people. And yes, the planes are “bling”, but they allow these gifted people to visit three cities in one day.

These are talented people and they get things done.

Things that you or I can not do. These are not “normal” people.

These people give away more time, talent and treasure than a thousand other people.

I remember one project that just got all screwed up … and when one of these CEO guys found out about it, he made one phone call and had some whiz bang travel to the troubled project and the guy fixed it!

No yelling, no screaming, no acting out.

He just made ONE phone call and got the problem fixed.

These are amazing people.

And they deserve all their perqs.

During World War II, there was a problem. The Holy Father, Pope Pius XII, had brought hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees into the Vatican City where they were safe from the Nazi’s who wanted to round them up and send them to extermination camps.

What was the problem? The Holy Father didn’t have the money to feed them. There were thousands of them.

What was the outcome? Cardinal Spellman, of New York City, called a few of his friends, and then began frequent trips to the Vatican under a diplomatic passport. In his luggage was millions of dollars in CASH … which he gave to the Holy Father who had his housekeeper spend to buy food.

[Those refugees were given forged passports and forged papers … which the Germans unaccountably honored … and those Jewish refugees were given safe passage out of the country … to this day, no one will speak about where they went … my guess is Spain.]

So, those rich people don’t throw all of their money around.

They use it to benefit a lot of us poor people.

And they ask nothing in return.

And, by the way, the man’s name who was the “chief forger” was Roncali.

Ever hear of him?

He shows up later on.

 

[davidmlamb]

Here is what I have learned … that among other things we have NO RIGHT to judge others.

I have known people on the Forbes 400 list. Billionaires.

And I got to know them well enough to know that many are selfless.

Yes, they have corporate jets. Nice ones. But those jets become “time machines” … these are very talented and gifted people. And yes, the planes are “bling”, but they allow these gifted people to visit three cities in one day.

These are talented people and they get things done.

Things that you or I can not do. These are not “normal” people.

These people give away more time, talent and treasure than a thousand other people.

I remember one project that just got all screwed up … and when one of these CEO guys found out about it, he made one phone call and had some whiz bang travel to the troubled project and the guy fixed it!

No yelling, no screaming, no acting out.

He just made ONE phone call and got the problem fixed.

These are amazing people.

And they deserve all their perqs.

During World War II, there was a problem. The Holy Father, Pope Pius XII, had brought hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees into the Vatican City where they were safe from the Nazi’s who wanted to round them up and send them to extermination camps.

What was the problem? The Holy Father didn’t have the money to feed them. There were thousands of them.

What was the outcome? Cardinal Spellman, of New York City, called a few of his friends, and then began frequent trips to the Vatican under a diplomatic passport. In his luggage was millions of dollars in CASH … which he gave to the Holy Father who had his housekeeper spend to buy food.

[Those refugees were given forged passports and forged papers … which the Germans unaccountably honored … and those Jewish refugees were given safe passage out of the country … to this day, no one will speak about where they went … my guess is Spain.]

So, those rich people don’t throw all of their money around.

They use it to benefit a lot of us poor people.

And they ask nothing in return.

And, by the way, the man’s name who was the “chief forger” was Roncali.

Ever hear of him?

He shows up later on.

Im not sure if this was in response to my former post but let me respond by saying that my post was not to say that the rich have not historically acted justly. Oskar Schindler for example was a very wealthy man yet surrendered all his wealth to save 11,000 Jews.

If you are a Catholic employer and act justly with your employees then you have been a faithful servant and have nothing to correct. But if you have fallen into the trap we are warned about in such passages as 1 Timothy 6:3-11 then what I wrote should serve as a point of examining your conscience. I am neither liberal or conservative, I am Catholic, and everything I have said is supported by the Church and the scriptures. It is not I who judges you it is God, I am just the messenger.

There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death. Proverbs 12:15

Peace,
David

 

[JimG]

My first job was working in newspaper mailroom at 75 cents/hr. It wasn’t a living wage, but it was a job. It was good experience, and it was a start. At age 15, (I lied about my age), I didn’t need a living wage. If I’d held out for a “living wage” I would always have been one step behind the actual job market. And if the newspaper had paid all the kids in the mail room a living wage, their price would have gone up and circulation dropped, so I might have gotten fired anyway.

(I had to lie about my age because my brother who was hired the year before had told them that he was 16 when he was actually 15. They knew we weren’t twins.)

 

[davidmlamb]

My first job was working in newspaper mailroom at 75 cents/hr. It wasn’t a living wage, but it was a job. It was good experience, and it was a start. At age 15, (I lied about my age), I didn’t need a living wage. If I’d held out for a “living wage” I would always have been one step behind the actual job market. And if the newspaper had paid all the kids in the mail room a living wage, their price would have gone up and circulation dropped, so I might have gotten fired anyway.

(I had to lie about my age because my brother who was hired the year before had told them that he was 16 when he was actually 15. They knew we weren’t twins.)

And during the time you were making 75 cents an hour I bet your dad worked a union job for 30 or 40 years which supported your entire family and gave him a nice pension. Those business ethics have long ago went out the window and in those days the highest tax brackets were more then twice what they are now and our public institutions and public services were effective and great. We built great infrastructures and put men on the moon. Our current economic woes would have never materialized had we not abandoned the teachings of the Church. Again who are you serving, God or wealth?

Peace,
David

 

[JimG]

And during the time you were making 75 cents an hour I bet your dad worked a union job for 30 or 40 years which supported your entire family and gave him a nice pension. Those business ethics have long ago went out the window and in those days the highest tax brackets were more then twice what they are now and our public institutions and public services were effective and great. We built great infrastructures and put men on the moon. Our current economic woes would have never materialized had we not abandoned the teachings of the Church. Again who are you serving, God or wealth?

Peace,
David

Now, that’s going way back. My dad started at 25 cents / hr at a box manufacturer, which went through a number of transformations and acquisitions and mergers over the years.

He’d been there a long time before the plant was ever unionized. When it was unionized, he became a shop steward and even published the union newsletter on a mimeograph machine in the basement. Much later, the company agreed to provide a pension program, which, looked at today, was pretty minimal. But the workers thought it was good because it required no employee contribution. But it also was a small fixed benefit with no COLA’s ever.

In his later working years, he became disillusioned with his union because it seemed to him that so many people simply used the grievance process for continual minor complaints which didn’t mean anything.

As to serving God or wealth, I have no idea what you mean. He never got well off enough to “serve wealth.” He ended up getting more out of social security than he ever paid in, and was just old enough to get Medicare when it was first passed. So when it comes to government social programs he made out pretty well, but that can’t continue now because the pool of contributors is shrinking. And it wasn’t something he lobbied for.

In any case I doubt that the Church has a formula for calculating wages. If it did, it probably wouldn’t work. I can’t see that an army of Catholic accountants and economists poring over social encyclicals and setting their notion of “just wages” for the government would be anything but disruptive.

And it isn’t that corporations and small business love free markets. No, they would much rather have no competition whatever. But fee markets work better than any government imposed system.

What’s with the dichotomy of serving God or wealth? Do the social teachings of the Church tell us to never save anything for retirement, or to count on public benefits for our livelihood? Or to pass off all our accumulated debt to our children and grandchildren?

If a worker manages to save enough to provide for his or her own retirement, would that be “serving wealth?” Would it be more moral to demand that the government provide?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Why do the republican resist raising taxes on the rich?Its been proven that it won’t produce more jobs to cut their taxes and they can’t say that its unfair because they already pay most of the taxes.When you compare how much they pay %wise compared to the amount of the wealth they control its surely obvious that they don’t pay enough.We know that the tax rate system has benifited the rich making them able to gain such wealth.Is it there lobbying to republican members(the spend much money in their support and actually get them elected through many means)the reasons the members are against it?

Before we go “taxing the rich”, our government needs to clean up its own economic house. WE don’t have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem. We spend money on entitlements (it is improper to call the “social safety nets” because they aren’t, they are lifelong entitlement programs) that we are borrowing on future generations. We are in effect, stealing money from the future for our lives now. What our government is doing is tantamount to taking out a credit card under your child’s SSN and using it to pay bills and buy groceries but leaving the bill for him to pay when he gets old enough. You have stollen his money. Theft is against the Commandments. It is a mortal sin and doing this type of 'social justice", by stealing from the future to pay for programs now is no different, morally, than supporting abortion on demand.

If you want to enact “social justice” (whatever that means), then make sure that it is paid for with TODAY’s tax receipts, not on borrowed money. Don’t tell me about justice if you are doing on the backs of people who haven’t even been born yet.

 

[sedonaman]

And during the time you were making 75 cents an hour I bet your dad worked a union job for 30 or 40 years which supported your entire family and gave him a nice pension. …

Good point. Have you noticed that the work-week has now become 80 hours? IOW, both husband and wife have to work for the same standard of living only one wage-earner could provide a generation ago. The proponents of a “living wage” start with the statement that a minimum wage-earner cannot support a family of four on just that one wage, and they build their whole argument around that. Well, hello-oh! Are two-wage-earner families supposed to work and pay taxes so the lower economic levels can enjoy a 40-hour work-week?

 

[RobbyS]

And during the time you were making 75 cents an hour I bet your dad worked a union job for 30 or 40 years which supported your entire family and gave him a nice pension. Those business ethics have long ago went out the window and in those days the highest tax brackets were more then twice what they are now and our public institutions and public services were effective and great. We built great infrastructures and put men on the moon. Our current economic woes would have never materialized had we not abandoned the teachings of the Church. Again who are you serving, God or wealth?

Peace,
David

Well, in those days the public schools in NYC were among the best in the country. Today they are a sinkhole despite the fact that spending on them is much higher even allowing for inflation. So it is not the lack of public funding that is the problem. Incidentally in the '50s, local and state taxes were pretty low. The main cause of the failure of the schools was that they were supposed to address the main socail problem of our society, racism, and somehow overcome it and could not. They could not because of the collapse of the black family in the cities, something that Pat Moynihan warned us about in 1965. This has led to the present collapse of the morale of the black people and their desperate need to blame their woes on the whites. Fact is a single woman with children is almost always poor and her sons are very likely to turn to crime and end up in jail.