Raising the level of discussion on NFP

[Binary]

Forum, there is a serious problem with the way NFP concerns are handled here. Last night I couldn’t sleep and, hoping to do something productive in advance of my coming wedding, read pretty much every thread with “NFP” in the title made in the last two years.

I saw threads made by men and women who were venting, complaining, and pouring out their hearts. Regardless of the words they used, the underlying message visible to anyone with the sense God gave to a goat was “Help me make sense of this suffering.” Often these people were suffering out of love of Christ, the Church, and their spouses, without being able to articulate why.

The most common themes of the responses they received were:
-You’re only suffering because you’ve been sinful in the past.
-You’re only suffering because x,y, and z are wrong with your marriage.
-Your reasons for avoiding pregnancy are probably insufficient.
-Stop whining, it’s not that hard.
-My problems are worse than yours.
-If you had read Humanae Vitae, you would have no problems.
-You’re just being emotional.
-Ugh, this topic again.

If you see a thread about NFP and consider responding with one of these sentiments, please do everyone a favor and donate your keyboard to a local thrift shop. For many people, the pursuit of chastity is how they most emulate Christ crucified. When you spit on their struggles, you are spitting on the one they’re trying to be like. They come here asking for an ounce of compassion (which some precious few commenters did express) and for the most part they receive judgment.

Suffering is an inherent part of Christian life and of NFP. Let’s be real about that and help each other see the value of and virtue in suffering for love.

 

[sdeco]

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

I also propose we ban the phrase “contraceptive mentality.” It is impossible to use NFP with a “contraceptive mentality.” Couples who have a “contraceptive mentality” just use contraception!!

Also, let’s stop all the talk about the hypothetical couples who use NFP so they can have their BMW and five ipads and fancy vacations. They don’t exist.

 

[Rico_S]

Binary,

I sort of agree with you…there is too often a general lack of empathy for posters struggling with NFP and child spacing. There are too many posters, many of whom are established with high post counts, whose posts smack of arrogance and condescension. I believe they have no idea how put off outsiders are by their posts. While they believe they are doing God’s work—“proclaiming objective truth”–their posts almost assuredly turn people away from the forums (and possibly away from pursuing their religion more seriously). This is most likely not a concern for them, though, b/c all these people with struggles are undoubtedly just looking for an excuse to sin.

On the other, there are some very helpful posters who consistently post good info on this topic.

 

[The_Bucket]

Ugh, this topic again?!

No, but seriously, thanks. And thank you to sdeco too. People who want to be selfish will use contraception. So will people who are scared about their finances or health, don’t know the Church’s teachings or simply can’t wrap their heads around it and accept the advice of a priest who tells them the wrong thing.

The fact that we’re wasting time debating whether someone is using NFP for the “right reasons” is beyond absurd. All of 5-10% of married Catholics in America use NFP or nothing. The rest use contraception. Why are we wasting time debating the use of NFP within a marriage when the Church’s teaching is quite clear? It’s not any of our place to judge anyone else, so the answer is always “we can’t know what qualifies as a serious/just reason for you. That’s up to you and your spouse to decide after a period of prayer and reflection.”

The only thing we can really discuss is effectiveness or various methods. That’s it! The morality is cut and dried people.

Instead of freaking out about a hypothetical “contraceptive mentality” with NFP that it really impossible to put into practice in the real world (I mean, have you actually come across this? Ever? With people who, you know, enjoy sex? I didn’t think so.) maybe we should work on building one another up. Maybe we should be talking about how we dealt with the matter in our own lives and how it strengthened us. Or maybe we can commiserate and acknowledge that yes, it is a struggle. Yes, it is tough. Yes, being a faithful Catholic is hard work and we shouldn’t be sugar-coating it.

We’ve got 95% of the country using contraception and 55% or so thinking abortion is A-OK and we’re spending copious amounts of time debating something our Church has flat out told us not to debate amongst ourselves? What a massive waste of time! Let’s stop it and instead put our efforts into supporting one another, helping newcomers with instruction and spreading the message of the proper use of sexuality to people who actually need it. There are many, many people who do!

 

[JackieMom]

I agree. Enough with the sanctimonious scrupulosity about not having a “grave” enough reason to use NFP.

We should celebrate a family that is spacing children in a way that works for them without using birth control, not debate whether their reasons are serious enough.

I never understand what people who don’t want to become pregnant are supposed to do when posters suggest their reasons aren’t justifiable. Try for more kids they don’t want to have?

 

[The_Bucket]

This is most likely not a concern for them, though, b/c all these people with struggles are undoubtedly just looking for an excuse to sin.

Absolutely. People who write in and tell us about medical conditions or severe financial stress are not “looking for an excuse to sin.” They are expressing real fears and the fears are usually multi-pronged. Another pregnancy could lead to severe medical complications or put them on welfare or worse. Prolonged abstinence could lead to other sexual sin or the dissolution of the marriage bond as resentment builds up between the spouses. Who knows? We don’t know the state of these marriages.

Sex is an extremely important thing and pooh-poohing that is a really good way to push people into accepting the gospel of the secular world. It makes the Church sound totally out of touch. Here we have the Church teaching that sex between spouses is good, holy and absolutely essential to making marriage indissoluble. And yet on the other hand the Church also has doctrine that seems to make sex very difficult for people living in the real world. It’s a tough nut to crack for many people, most people actually, and casting aspersions on others’ intentions is a terrific way to push those people farther away from Christ.

Look at it from the position of your average Catholic who went to Sunday school, goes to Mass weekly but doesn’t read encyclicals or papal bulls or anything like that. Basically your run of the mill person trying to be a good Catholic but who is either too busy to study or not educated enough or simply does not know about all the great theological work out there. They know that contraception is no good. So they don’t use it. Or maybe they have from time to time in moments of weakness. But not always. They have a passing knowledge of NFP but don’t really use it. So they have a handful of kids 10 years into a marriage. Let’s say four. Now there is major financial stress and the wife has a medical condition that precludes pregnancy. Don’t you think the average Catholic will listen to a doctor who says “You can’t get pregnant right now so take this pill or have this injection; God wouldn’t really want you to sacrifice sex or put your life at risk”? Don’t you think this average Catholic likely has little culpability for her sin? Don’t you think an average Catholic husband who hears that his wife could DIE from another pregnancy has a lowered culpability if he runs out to get a vasectomy out of fear? Don’t you think these average Catholics would look at prolonged abstinence as a great way to torpedo their marriages since sex is so important to their union? After all, that is indeed what the Church teaches: Sex is what separates a martial relationship from other relationships.

It’s up to us to educate our fellow Catholics about how we cannot give into sin out of fear and explain calmly that we all have crosses to bear. And it’s also up to us to not cast judgment on their decisions. We have no idea what their culpability is for these decisions which are frequently made out of fear, stress, etc and not just being selfish. I’m not downplaying the gravity of the sins, but noting that whether something is venial or mortal is not for us to determine. It’s for God and God alone.

 

[The_Bucket]

I never understand what people who don’t want to become pregnant are supposed to do when posters suggest their reasons aren’t justifiable. Try for more kids they don’t want to have?

More than that, I think they’re required to have sex even if they don’t want to.

“Hey honey, it’s my fertile period and no “grave” reason to postpone more kids according to some people on the Internet. So… I guess you need to get over here.”

“But I got all of two hours of sleep last night and I’ve got an early shift tomorrow.”

“I’ve actually got a cold too and feeling miserable, but some people on the Internet said we’re committing mortal sin if we avoid pregnancy. Come on.”

“People on the Internet said this? Must be true. If it’s for the salvation of my soul…”

 

[PaulinVA]

Here are my rules for NFP discussions:

1. Serious/grave reasons are relative to the couple and can’t be evaluated by people on the internet.
2. I use the Sympto-Thermal method, but will not bash the other methods.
3. I rejoice when anyone attempts to use NFP instead of ABC
4. I try to sympathize with people who are struggling with NFP, but at the same time try to point out that abstaining will not kill you.

 

[JackieMom]

More than that, I think they’re required to have sex even if they don’t want to.

“Hey honey, it’s my fertile period and no “grave” reason to postpone more kids according to some people on the Internet. So… I guess you need to get over here.”

“But I got all of two hours of sleep last night and I’ve got an early shift tomorrow.”

“I’ve actually got a cold too and feeling miserable, but some people on the Internet said we’re committing mortal sin if we avoid pregnancy. Come on.”

“People on the Internet said this? Must be true. If it’s for the salvation of my soul…”

Didn’t have sex during fertile period. Must go to confession!

 

[The_Bucket]

Those are good rules Paul. I try to avoid #4 altogether myself because, well, while abstaining won’t kill you it can and does indeed truly suck and can be detrimental to the marriage if both spouses do not accept the situation and let resentment build up. There’s no sugar-coating that.

I think the longest period of abstinence in my married life is post-delivery. And in my wife’s case, it’s all been c-sections. So that’s what, 6-8 weeks? A pain, but then again I’m generally running ragged anyway juggling the new and already existing children, trying to keep the house clean while my wife recovers, etc. Basically, I know that it’s impossible and I’ve got plenty of other things to do. I’m already tired, I know it’s temporary and life goes on. People who are in situations where the abstinence is basically indefinite are in much, much tougher boats. I don’t think I can provide any good advice for people in those situations so I tend to keep my mouth shut.

If the spouses accept the situation and understand the crosses they are bearing, the marriage can indeed be stronger than ever. But there’s no way to deny that it’s a tough situation. And if one or both spouses get resentful about the crosses, which likely happens frequently because we’re all fallible human beings, then it can be destructive to the marriage. Let’s not fail to acknowledge that.

 

[RoseMary131]

Forum, there is a serious problem with the way NFP concerns are handled here. Last night I couldn’t sleep and, hoping to do something productive in advance of my coming wedding, read pretty much every thread with “NFP” in the title made in the last two years.

Congratulations on your upcoming marriage! I am so excited to see so many couples today beginning their Sacrament with knowledge of NFP. May you two have a beautiful wedding day and a life time of love!

 

[Binary]

…but at the same time try to point out that abstaining will not kill you.

Maybe I didn’t go far enough back in the forum’s history, but I didn’t see posters speaking of their fear of death by abstinence. Have you seen this a lot? If so, please continue to dispense this hard-won wisdom. Nobody should continue to suffer from such an irrational fear.

If you haven’t seen it, perhaps you could point out that in a spiritual sense, chastity WILL kill you. For those to whom it comes with difficulty, chastity is their daily way of dying to themselves so that Christ may more fully live in them.

 

[Joe_5859]

I think this is fair advice to keep in mind for any topic, not just NFP.

I think it’s more difficult for some people than others to really read between the lines and empathize with the mental/emotional/spiritual place that people are posting from. Such is the limitation of this text-based medium.

 

[Binary]

Congratulations on your upcoming marriage! I am so excited to see so many couples today beginning their Sacrament with knowledge of NFP. May you two have a beautiful wedding day and a life time of love!

Thank you so much, RoseMary! It’s very exciting and a little intimidating, but I can’t wait to be her husband.

 

[Joe_5859]

Maybe I didn’t go far enough back in the forum’s history, but I didn’t see posters speaking of their fear of death by abstinence. Have you seen this a lot? If so, please continue to dispense this hard-won wisdom. Nobody should continue to suffer from such an irrational fear.

If you haven’t seen it, perhaps you could point out that in a spiritual sense, chastity WILL kill you. For those to whom it comes with difficulty, chastity is their daily way of dying to themselves so that Christ may more fully live in them.

I don’t think you do your thread any favors by asking people to be more charitable and then resorting to sarcasm.

 

[adrift]

I don’t usually post on threads that I have out grown. I am well past the need of NFP. But I think I used it in a much different way than most.
I had what people would say an irregular menses. I could go 20 to 90 days. It was miserable until NFP. With NFP I found that my menses was not as irregular as I thought. No longer was I surprised I knew. Taking my temperature everyday I knew when I would start a period. I can’t tell you how relieved and happy I was with this knowledge. I also knew each time I got pregnant 14 days after conception. Only once after a miscarriage did we use NFP to avoid pregnancy. NFP to me was joyful.

 

[sw85]

When you say “here,” do you mean CAF in general or the Family Life subforum in particular? I don’t poke my head in here much, but I have in the past dealt with NFP threads over at Moral Theology and I admit to getting quite frustrated with them, to the point that I try to avoid them or, at most, just toss in one drive-by post and then never return. Are there substantial differences between the sort of NFP posts made here and at Moral Theology?

 

[Binary]

I don’t think you do your thread any favors by asking people to be more charitable and then resorting to sarcasm.

You are absolutely right. That was very hypocritical of me.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

I think this is fair advice to keep in mind for any topic, not just NFP.

I think it’s more difficult for some people than others to really read between the lines and empathize with the mental/emotional/spiritual place that people are posting from. Such is the limitation of this text-based medium.

This thread reminds me a little of an article I read, and I took this comment from that article:

I think I understand your goal here, but I feel like in trying to reach that goal, the Truth is becoming murky, and it doesn’t have to be that way! We are all called to be saints, and that means we have to strive for what is best, not just ok, and, we do have to spread the Truth as well (with love and charity, not arrogance)!

Different people are at different levels of knowledge of the Truth. It is possible that one person who understands less of the teachings, but is following them the best they can, is striving harder for sanctity, working harder and getting closer to God than one who does understand the teachings, has been given more, but is arrogant and not helping others.

Everything we have has been given to us by God, and more we have been given, the more is expected of us. I understand your wanting to defend the people that are doing their best to follow the Church’s teachings, especially in the area of sexuality where it is so counter-cultural, and many people lack any sort of support, or are even mocked, by family and friends. Even if some of these are using NFP for selfish reasons, this is the first step, one we should support them in this step, and who knows, later on they may learn more and move on to being more generous. I understand this and I agree, yet it can’t be done at the cost of the Truth.

We cannot presume to know a couple’s situation from the outside. Only God knows their hearts, their situation, etc etc, which is more reason to not hide the Truth so they can discern based on the Truth. We need to share the Truth: without arrogance, without making up teachings, in Love, and Charity, praying for the right moment to say the right thing, at times maybe just doing one’s best to set a good example. Watering down the teachings, or worse, changing them does not help anyone.

What happens to those reading this that are past the point of choosing between NFP and contraception, and are now at the point of discerning whether to receive more children at this time or not? Society is already bombarding these people with messages about how children are burdens, how it is crazy and irresponsible to have more than 2-3. How does hiding the Truth about how we need to be generous, we need to have good reasons to avoid, help these people at this point? Having more than the average 2-3 is not easy nowadays (heck having any at all can be hard), how about support for these people? In the Truth, there is support for everyone. If you need to avoid, you can, and you can use NFP, and have sex when you are infertile, and take part of God’s beautiful design this way. If you don’t need to avoid, then maybe God has plans to bless you with more children, be open to them, and take part of God’s beautiful design in this way. A couple needs to educate their conscience (difficult to do with murky Truths) and pray to discern what they think God wants of them, and they may find they need to avoid for the time being, or that they should welcome another child if He chooses to send them another one. God loves us and wants what is best for us. Be Not Afraid. God’s design is beautiful, NFP is beautiful, sex is beautiful, the gift of life is beautiful. There is no need for half truths, with the full Truth we can be at peace when following our Church’s teachings, seeking His will, not the opinions of those with power struggles nor of those trying to water down the teachings.

 

[The_Bucket]

And when you think about it in a historical context, the Church has always been counter-cultural in its thinking about sex and marriage. It’s not just today with promiscuity running rampant. In fact, it’s been so counter-cultural that many times the doctrine of the Church did not mesh with what many in the hierarchy taught or what normal practices were by the faithful for quite some time.

There’s been much ink spilled by theologians, even saintly ones, of centuries past about sex being a “necessary evil” for the procreation of children. St. Paul was a bit off in his calling the celibate life more virtuous than the married life. In the Middle Ages there was little spoken about the sanctity of marriage; it wasn’t even a sacrament until relatively (a few hundred years) recently. Plenty of nuns and priests of the late 19th and early 20th centuries were wrong to use fear to try and keep people in line as it pertained to premarital sex; nothing in our doctrine about doing that.

And recall that Christ’s teaching about marriage flew directly in the face of Mosaic Law which permitted divorce… but only if the husband requested it. Wives had no recourse. Christ flat-out told His fellow Jews that they were all wrong and that marriage was indissoluble.

So yes, the Church’s teaching on marriage is so radical and so counter-cultural that it’s taken to the present age for Her to be able to fully explain it to the world! Of course then even those trying to be faithful would be confused about Her teaching when She did not do the best job in the last couple of millenia to explain it!