Rally organizer tied to Marxist party

[Geldain]

World Workers Party Behind planned May1st rally

Excerpt:

One of the key organizers of the immigration protests and rallies nationwide, including yesterday’s in Washington, is a group whose leaders are tied to the Workers World Party, a Marxist organization that has expressed support for dictators Kim Jong-il of North Korea and Saddam Hussein of Iraq.

Act Now to Stop War and End Racism (ANSWER) Coalition, which also has proposed a nationwide boycott on May 1 to protest congressional efforts at immigration reform and border security, is an offshoot of the International Action Coalition, an anti-capitalism group founded by former Attorney General Ramsey Clark.

In a press release celebrating a March 25 rally in Los Angeles against immigration-law enforcement that drew an estimated 500,000 people, ANSWER said it helped organize "a major contingent in the march" and provided logistical support. The march was co-chaired by Juan Jose Gutierrez, director of Latino Movement USA, who also is a member of ANSWER's Los Angeles steering committee.

From where I sit, it’s no surprise communists and socialist groups are pro-illegal immigration. No surprise at all.

 

[Zerith]

A Communist, trying to help people?! Oh no! QED immigration MUST be wrong!

I dislike the entire “Oh no, Communism!!!” attitude in America.

Socialists and Communists are usually fairly accepting of foreigners and immigration. Your statement saying you’re not surprised shows how little you actually know about Socialists and modern Communists.

And no this is not Stalinism we are talking about. That is dead and gone. Example: In Europe, it has been replaced by “Eurocommunism” - Eg the Italian Communist Refoundation Party. It’s still not effective, or anything to worry about, my point is, is that modern Communist parties are not the Communists of old. Stop living the years of the Cold War, they’re pathetic and useless - nothing to fear, even look back in history… Europe stayed Democratic, unlike America, and didn’t force people not to be Communist, we allowed Communists and Communist Parties to exist - Did we fall to Communism? No, although, the East did, due to Soviet aggression - is that the same? No. So please, stop with this “Communist Boogyman” stuff.

 

[gilliam]

Zerith:

A Communist, trying to help people?! Oh no! QED immigration MUST be wrong!

I dislike the entire “Oh no, Communism!!!” attitude in America.

Socialists and Communists are usually fairly accepting of foreigners and immigration. Your statement saying you’re not surprised shows how little you actually know about Socialists and modern Communists.

And no this is not Stalinism we are talking about. That is dead and gone. Example: In Europe, it has been replaced by “Eurocommunism” - Eg the Italian Communist Refoundation Party. It’s still not effective, or anything to worry about, my point is, is that modern Communist parties are not the Communists of old. Stop living the years of the Cold War, they’re pathetic and useless - nothing to fear, even look back in history… Europe stayed Democratic, unlike America, and didn’t force people not to be Communist, we allowed Communists and Communist Parties to exist - Did we fall to Communism? No, although, the East did, due to Soviet aggression - is that the same? No. So please, stop with this “Communist Boogyman” stuff.

Then why parade around with teeshirts and flags with the picture of a murderer on them?

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/cheflag.jpg

michellemalkin.com/archives/004885.htm

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Zerith:

And no

this is not Stalinism we are talking about. That is dead and gone.

Yes, largely due to Marxism’s intrinsic incoherence and thankfully enormous resistance from the free world. Much of Europe sure tried to commit suicide with disasterous socialist policies, but like many things, they could not even manage that. They survived in spite of themselves.

Example: In Europe, it has been replaced by “Eurocommunism” - Eg the Italian Communist Refoundation Party. It’s still not effective, or anything to worry about, my point is, is that modern Communist parties are not the Communists of old. Stop living the years of the Cold War, they’re pathetic and useless - nothing to fear, even look back in history… Europe stayed Democratic, unlike America, and didn’t force people not to be Communist, we allowed Communists and Communist Parties to exist - Did we fall to Communism? No, although, the East did, due to Soviet aggression - is that the same? No. So please, stop with this “Communist Boogyman” stuff.

Yes, well the only reason these people are playing nice is because the HAVE to because their crackpot theories have been discredited and now are reduced to being shrill losers.

 

[Zerith]

gilliam:

Then why parade around with teeshirts and flags with the picture of a murderer on them?

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/cheflag.jpg

michellemalkin.com/archives/004885.htm

Because simply they’re idiots…

I’m saying look at the parties, look at their policies. And if a person wants to run around brandishing T-shirts, banners or photos of a murderer, why, in a democratic nation, should they not be allowed to?

I sincerely doubt those that voted the Italian Communist Refoundation Party (Recieved 7-8% of the votes for the lower house, and roughly 5% for the upper house in Italy’s elections yesterday) vote for the party that praises a murderer (Which, might I add, they do not). And while some may do such a thing, not all Communists, or Communist supporters/voters do that.

That’s like saying all Republicans in the USA are gun-crazy, or religious. Or that the Democrats are all religion hating/bashing Atheists.

 

[Geldain]

Your statement saying you’re not surprised shows how little you actually know about Socialists and modern Communists.

Actually, my statement says nothing of what I know or don’t know about “Socialists and modern Communists.”

Zerith:

So please, stop with this “Communist Boogyman” stuff.

No, thank you. I find communism to be an abomination, a deterrent to human dignity and freedom. I find socialism to be only slightly less abhorrent.

What’s the line, “only 100 million people have died under communist rule, lets give it another chance”.

I don’t think so.

Also, remember ANSWER is a front group for the World Worker’s Party–a communist group which has some horrible, anti-human dignity beliefs.

They support the Tiennamin Square massacre

They support North Korea’s dictator

They also supported Milosovich as well

This is a portion of what I know of modern day communists

So when groups like ANSWER and their founders, the World Worker’s Party are organizing protests in America, odds are high, they are A)not in the best interest of my nation B)not in the best interest of human freedom C) not ultimately in the best interest of human dignity D) never in the best interest of the Catholic Church

 

[Zerith]

Geldain:

Actually, my statement says nothing of what I know or don’t know about “Socialists and modern Communists.”

No, thank you. I find communism to be an abomination, a deterrent to human dignity and freedom. I find socialism to be only slightly less abhorrent.

What’s the line, “only 100 million people have died under communist rule, lets give it another chance”.

I don’t think so.

Did I ask you to support Communism? Stop acting as if I asked you to, stop acting as if I, myself, am a supporter, or even advocator of Communism.

Again, Communism is no longer Stalinism. Stop acting, or believing, that it is. That is utter ignorance. Why not research refounded Communism? Even the Russian Communist party resembles Democratic Socialism.

From where I sit, it’s no surprise communists and socialist groups are pro-illegal immigration.

Actually, that does. Because that statement lets on that you previously did not know their stance, and that in finding out, it did not surprise you. Well, guess what! It’s not a surprise to most, especially those who do not live in a country which says that if you’re a Communist, you’re simply evil no question about it, that they are pro-immigration - Why? Every Socialist and Communist party ARE pro-immigration. Though, yes, America, two parties which recieve practically all the votes, both of which are economically open (Again, I’m not saying I support the alternative, far from it), I wouldn’t expect you to have first hand experience with Socialists or Communists, and of course, the history of “Communist Horror Stories”.

As a religious Conservative who advocates open market economic ideology, I dislike and oppose Socialism and Communism - Am I running around as if they’re the Devil? Am I scared of them? Do I advocate banning them, limiting the political spectrum and expression of peoples’ political beliefs and ideology? Am I ignorant to what they are? What we have in common is our opposition to Socialism and Communism - I suggest you stop living in the '60s and stop being afraid of Communists.

I will not sit here defending an ideology which I personally dislike, I see no point in it.

Edit: I’m not surprised that in your post above, after me going against the American norm of hating Communists, that you tried to brand me as one because I did not say or even hint any of these:

A)not in the best interest of my nation B)not in the best interest of human freedom C) not ultimately in the best interest of human dignity D) never in the best interest of the Catholic Church

So why say what I believe, acting as if that’s what I said, and/or believe?

Except, of course, for point C. Freedom? Tell me where and how the Italian Communist Refoundation Party are against freedom. I shall state it YET AGAIN. This is NOT Stalinism! Communism does NOT automatically mean “Authoritarian rule, which bans Democracy”.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Zerith:

As a religious Conservative who advocates open market economic ideology, I dislike and oppose Socialism and Communism -

Good.

Am I running around as if they’re the Devil?

No, but one should note that Marx dabbled with satanism before he was a communist.

Am I scared of them?

Scared of them as people? No. Concerned that they have latched on to a fundamentally immoral world view? Yes.

Do I advocate banning them, limiting the political spectrum and expression of peoples’ political beliefs and ideology? Am I ignorant to what they are?

A democracy in general tolerates people with communist beliefs. You will note that while US Communists have been fired, blackballed, etc., they generally only actually get rounded up for seditous criminal acts, not merely for believing.

What we have in common is our opposition to Socialism and Communism - I suggest you stop living in the '60s and stop being afraid of Communists.

Again, it is not about being afraid necessarily. But bad ideas can have bad consequences, so it is perfectly reasonable to be vigilant.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Also, it is the apologists for communism and socialism that are still living in the 60’s. They continue to maintain the fiction that US Communism was merely good ol’ American grass-roots activism even in the face of irrefutable evidence that the US communist organizations and people were taking money from the Soviets. Until there is some honesty on their part, we have to keep revisiting this issue.

 

[sconea]

Socialists and Communists are usually fairly accepting of foreigners and immigration. Your statement saying you’re not surprised shows how little you actually know about Socialists and modern Communists.

Zerith…could I interest you in a little learning vacation trip to North Korea…or maybe Cuba?

God bless and bon voyage!

 

[Geldain]

Zerith:

Did I ask you to support Communism? Stop acting as if I asked you to, stop acting as if I, myself, am a supporter, or even advocator of Communism.

Never suggested you were.

Again, Communism is no longer Stalinism. Stop acting, or believing, that it is. That is utter ignorance. Why not research refounded Communism?

You have no idea of what I’ve researched or not. The reason I haven’t spoken of refounded communism is because neither ANSWER nor the World Worker’s Party strikes me as refounded communism.

As a religious Conservative who advocates open market economic ideology, I dislike and oppose Socialism and Communism - Am I running around as if they’re the Devil? Am I scared of them? Do I advocate banning them, limiting the political spectrum and expression of peoples’ political beliefs and ideology? Am I ignorant to what they are? What we have in common is our opposition to Socialism and Communism - I suggest you stop living in the '60s and stop being afraid of Communists.

Suggest away. I’ll chose who and what I wish to be afraid of. Also, being aware and informed of the present day communist parties supporting marches in America doesn’t = living in the 60’s. It does = living in 2006.

Edit: I’m not surprised that in your post above, after me going against the American norm of hating Communists, that you tried to brand me as one

Actually, I did no such thing.

Tell me where and how the Italian Communist Refoundation Party are against freedom.

Is this particular party supporting and promoting marches in the US that support illegal immigrants? Unless they are, they are irrelevant to this thread.

I shall state it YET AGAIN. This is NOT Stalinism! Communism does NOT automatically mean “Authoritarian rule, which bans Democracy”.

Repeat it 100 times a day if you are so inclined. It doesn’t change the reality the World Worker’s Party supported/organized the marches yesterday and in the recent past. I’ve linked to their own website where you can read what they support, if you wish.

 

[Zerith]

Scott Waddell:

Also, it is the apologists for communism and socialism that are still living in the 60’s. They continue to maintain the fiction that US Communism was merely good ol’ American grass-roots activism even in the face of irrefutable evidence that the US communist organizations and people were taking money from the Soviets. Until there is some honesty on their part, we have to keep revisiting this issue.

Hmm, let me get this straight…

Summarisation:
“Communism isn’t the same as it was in the 1960s Communism has changed, albeit I still don’t like it. Communism is not Stalinism, it is no longer Authoritarian. They aren’t taking money from Soviets, as of course they no longer exist. No, I’m not defending the Communists of the 1960s, nor am I myself a Communist, nor a Communist apologist, only informing you that your beliefs are somewhat archaic, ignorant and out dated”.

“COMMUNIST! Communism sucks! Full stop!” :ehh:

Which one is more related to the 1960s?

Meh, I’m off to cook myself some food…

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Zerith:

Hmm, let me get this straight…

Summarisation:
“Communism isn’t the same as it was in the 1960s Communism has changed, albeit I still don’t like it. Communism is not Stalinism, it is no longer Authoritarian. They aren’t taking money from Soviets, as of course they no longer exist. No, I’m not defending the Communists of the 1960s, nor am I myself a Communist, nor a Communist apologist, only informing you that your beliefs are somewhat archaic, ignorant and out dated”.

“COMMUNIST! Communism sucks! Full stop!” :ehh:

Which one is more related to the 1960s?

Meh, I’m off to cook myself some food…

If the best you can do is make a snide, gross caricature of my points as opposed to interacting with them as if you were discussing with a fellow human worthy of respect, I guess I will stop as well.

 

[MikeWM]

sconea:

Zerith…could I interest you in a little learning vacation trip to North Korea…or maybe Cuba?

God bless and bon voyage!

I’d be happy to take a vacation to Cuba - lot’s of people from the UK do and thoroughly enjoy it. North Korea is obviously a different matter.

Mike

 

[MikeWM]

Geldain:

What’s the line, “only 100 million people have died under communist rule, lets give it another chance”.

The global capitalist system is beating that hands down. Remember Make Poverty History last summer? 10 million children a YEAR are dying of avoidable poverty.

Mike

 

[sconea]

Well let me substitute China for Cuba to make my point better understood…and where can you attend a Catholic mass in Cuba? I’m unfamiliar with the status of the Church there now. Can one attend a Catholic Mass there? Thanks

 

[MikeWM]

sconea:

Well let me substitute China for Cuba to make my point better understood…

Then you are veering off your point. China isn’t communist at all. It’s authoritarian capitalist. Just because they call it communist for historical reasons doesn’t make it so.

and where can you attend a Catholic mass in Cuba? I’m unfamiliar with the status of the Church there now. Can one attend a Catholic Mass there? Thanks

I assume so. The Pope went there a few years ago, after all.

Mike

 

[Scott_Waddell]

MikeWM:

The global capitalist system is beating that hands down. Remember Make Poverty History last summer? 10 million children a YEAR are dying of avoidable poverty.

Mike

errr…evidence that can directly link their deaths to capitalism and that capitalists deliberately are trying to cause them?

 

[MikeWM]

Scott Waddell:

errr…evidence that can directly link their deaths to capitalism

avoidable poverty. The key word is ‘avoidable’. That means we can avoid it somehow.

and that capitalists deliberately are trying to cause them?

‘I confess… that I have sinned, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do’

There is no need for these people to be dying. The global system is letting it happen. And the global system is capitalism.

Mike

 

[Scott_Waddell]

avoidable poverty. The key word is ‘avoidable’. That means we can avoid it somehow.

‘I confess… that I have sinned, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do’

There is no need for these people to be dying. The global system is letting it happen. And the global system is capitalism.

Mike

No, these people are not starving for lack, but that they are being deliberatley starved by rogue governments who use hunger as a weapon. I suppose we could alleviate the starving not by a boatload of food, but by a boatload of Marines. Acceptable?