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ralphy
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What does that word mean. Ralph
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Randy_Carson
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Actually, it is the full gospel which you have not heard because you only have the Bible and have lost touch with Sacred Tradition. But your question is flawed.
Answering the Question, “Where is that in the Bible?”
The Evangelical starts with the assumption that scripture existed first and that tradition was slowly and incrementally added to it as time progressed. However, the original deposit of faith was given to the Apostles years before Scripture was ever penned. The Church was founded on this truth from Christ. Some of this deposit was then written in Scripture, some was scrupulously passed from bishop to bishop as oral tradition, and some was later clarified as dogma by the agreement of the bishops in the councils of the Church.
These sources, of course, should be expected not to contradict each other. If the Church teaches something as true, it is justifiable to check that it is not contradicted by Scripture. But if the Church teaches something and the Bible is silent or ambiguous, that does not mean the teaching is any less truly a part of the original deposit of faith given the Apostles. The focus must shift from what is biblical to what is true. The first is always contained in the second, but all of the second is not necessarily contained in the first.
When an Evangelical asks, “Where is that doctrine in the Bible?”, the correct response is “First show me from Scripture why you believe all Christian doctrines must be in the Bible.” It can be frustrating for Evangelicals to confront this issue, but it is important for them to understand the lack of biblical basis for their question. Truth is at issue here.
Adapted from Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic by David B. Currie, pp.61-62.
Since your insistence that everything must be proved from the Bible has no Biblical basis, we are under no obligation to be bound by your terms. However, because of your weakness, we will try as often as possible to point out those verses that support Catholic teaching either explicitly or implicitly.
Hope this helps. :tiphat:
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ralphy
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First of all, one must realize that one is a sinner and sin cannot enter heaven. That is why Christ died and shed his blood, so we now have a way to get to heaven. We must turn to Christ, repent of our sins, trust only in Him and His finished work at Calvary and ask Him to come into our heart and to save us. When we accept Him as our personal Savior we are covered by His blood, at that time the Holy Spirit comes in to dwell to lead and guide us as to what we should say and what we should do. Ralphread the question ralphy…“how does mankind’s salvation come about?” now you change your tune and say it comes about by a purely phsical act.
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ralphy
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What do you do with the statement that God said in His word “the word will judge you in the last day”? Ralph
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fbl9
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this shows just how much you know about Jesus…did you not read the opening of the Gospel written by St.John…in the begining there was the word and the word now made flesh.
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ralphy
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What has that got to do with my question? Ralph
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fbl9
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are you saying that on the last day a book will descend from heaven and judge the peoples,…and i thought i was messed up from the non catholics you seem to be even worse then i was.
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Catholicc
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Exegesis vs Eisogesis:
Exogesis comes from the same word as exit and means to take something out. To exegete a Scripture we need to go into it with the question what is God’s saying here and take out what God says. Eisogesis is starting with a doctrine or idea and going into the Bible to find proof for it. With over 34,000 verses in the Bible you can find proof for anything.
You are coming at Eph 2:8-9 with a pre-conceived idea of how we are “saved” and superimposing your idea onto the text.
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Tomster
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Well Ralphy, I think the Catholics on this thread have done an outstanding job trying to show you what the true meaning of Incarnational theology is. Your Jesus and me and the Bible alone theory has been shown up to be gravely defective just like the defective KJV version of the Bible you use.
As I have said earlier, you must take the template off of your Bible and quit trying to fit your own interpretations into it. You are not infallible.
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paul_c
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Ralph, Jesus is the word of God. He was made flesh. and he will judge the world.
Check out Matthew 35 31-46 to validate this.
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Catholicc
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- Apparently you never walked into any religious book store, where there are always shelves full of Catholic Bibles for sale. They wouldn’t be printing them by the truckload if someone wasn’t buying them.
- I doubt if a boy at your age at that time was even trying to find out if every Catholic family at your parish had a Bible at home.
(I remember buying my mom a big Bible for Christmas when I was a kid, in the 60’s.
And I was smart enough to buy a Catholic one and not a truncated protestant one.)
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paul_c
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Ralph, thanks for sharing your background. Previously you said you had convderted from Catholicism in 1977 so you must be about 75 years old now. That is the approximate age of my parents (I am 49) so I can relate to your experience through them. They never really read the bible either. For them, there really was not a need, they felt they got what they needed through the readings and homilies at mass. But that doesn’tt mean it was denied to them. In fact, any Catholic could purchase a bible and read it to their heart’s content. Indeed, when I was 13 (1973), we all got bibles as part of CCD class , we went through the gospels together, and then we were encouraged to read it on our own. I have been reading it daily ever since. I think you must recognize that the other Catholics who have been responding to you are at least my equals in this regard.
I can’t speak for the environment in which you grew up so that you didn’t understand salvation, but I can tell you that the resources for a Catholic are nearly endless if you choose to use them. There is daily mass, there is confession, There are numerous devotionals that can lead you to God, including Stations of the cross, the Rosary, the chaplets, the litanies, novenas. There are all kinds of scriptural study groups, both in person and on the web. You’ve obviously found CAF. There’s EWTN, Catholic radio and others as well. There are thousands of books on the faith, written by and of the saints. In fact, the Church’s single goal is to bring us to Salvation through Jesus Christ and its resources to support that are incredibly deep. Its a shame you didn’t or couldn’t avail yourself of some of them. That option is not yet lost, however, if you open yourself to it.
I don’t think anyone ends up on CAF by accident - there is a purpose to it and its not always what we intend. I can tell you are surprised at what you are finding here and that the Catholicism you are encountering is not at all what you expected or what you knew. That’s because you are now getting a picture of true Catholicism, unlike what you experienced in your youth. Too bad, when you went seeking at age 43, you didn’t seek the full Catholic experience and that you didn’t have access to what you have now. So be it. All I can ask you to do is to swallow your pride and be open to the fact that God may have directed you here to call you home to the Catholic Church.
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ralphy
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Here is where you will find the book I am talking about, it’s the bible. John 12:48-50. Ralph
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jmcrae
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There is nothing about the Bible in John 12:48-50. He is talking about the Last Judgment, when His words (that is, the speaking that will come out of His mouth at that time) will judge the whole earth and everyone in it.
The Bible is not going to do that; Jesus is going to do that. There will be no more Bibles around at that time; they will have all been destroyed in the Apocalypse.
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ralphy
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You know something. The more I correspond on the internet with Roman catholics, the sadder I feel for them. I was hoping to inject some light into their system from the word of God, however the more I try to tell them that it is the word of God we will be judged by, the deeper they fall back into their familiar field of “tradition” and Roman catholic teaching, trusting in the Roman catholic church to carry them through to heaven. Believing all that the hierarchy tells them without questioning it: praying to and for the dead, purgatory, praying to saints which has nothing to do with christianity, but has a lot to do with “religion”. The Roman catholic church has added and taken away so many things I cannot count them and I would suggest that the catechism was started for that reason, in this way the church could write in a book what it wanted the people to read, which in the authors mind is true and scriptural. I suggest that you read a warning in Rev (Apocalypse)22:18,19. Ralph
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Jerry-Jet
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Ralphy: Will you ever answer my question: what do you think Jesus meant when he BREATHED on the disciples and gave them the power to RETAIN sin?
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Catholicc
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We receive our light from the Holy Spirit, not from nameless people on the Internet.
And, the only reason you even have a Bible is because WE put it all together in the 4th century. Thats a Catholic book you are reading from my friend.
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ralphy
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Is the Bible Gods word? Ralph
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ralphy
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paul_c
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No, actually, Jesus is the WORD of God. Read the beginning of John’s gospel: JOHN 1: 1-14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race; the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. A man named John was sent from God. He came for testimony, to testify to the light, so that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but came to testify to the light.
The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world came to be through him, but the world did not know him. He came to what was his own, but his own people did not accept him. But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name, who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man’s decision but of God. And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth
The Bible is inspired text that was and is used by the Catholic Church to teach the faithful since it was completed in 382AD (and of course, individual books of the Bible were used as soon as they were written. It of course teaches about the WORD OF GOD… When the Protestants broke from the Church in the 1500s they retained the use of the Bible from the Catholics, at times, modifying it to meet their particular theological needs. Indeed, since they separated themselves, they no longer had access to the magesterium, the sacraments or tradition, so the Bible was their only access to the truth, even though it was incomplete in that it does not contain all the TRUTH. This reliance on the Bible has reached such extremes that people like you believe that IT will actually judge you. In fact, it is simply a tool developed by the Catholic Church to aid in teaching the truths of the faith. Unfortunately, if you interpret incorrectly, you can be mislead into doing evil. It is fully scriptural that Satan uses scripture to mislead: He even tried to use it to lead Jesus away from his mission. Remember, Luke 4: 1-13
Filled with the holy Spirit, Jesus returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the desert for forty days, to be tempted by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and when they were over he was hungry. The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread.” Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘One does not live by bread alone.’” Then he took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a single instant. The devil said to him, “I shall give to you all this power and their glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I may give it to whomever I wish. All this will be yours, if you worship me.” Jesus said to him in reply, “It is written: ‘You shall worship the Lord, your God, and him alone shall you serve.’” Then he led him to Jerusalem, made him stand on the parapet of the temple, and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here, for it is written: ‘He will command his angels concerning you, to guard you,’ And: ‘With their hands they will support you, lest you dash your foot against a stone.’" Jesus said to him in reply, “It also says, ‘You shall not put the Lord, your God, to the test.’” When the devil had finished every temptation, he departed from him for a time.
When you start saying that Catholics are opposed to scripture, you simply demonstrate your ignorance of the facts. :
And yes, we trust the church to interpret scripture for us. Remember St. Peter’s warning in 2Peter3:15-18
And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability. But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory now and to the day of eternity. (Amen.)
Of course, you don’t believe this applies to you. Take your Revelations example, for instance. You think it applies to Catholics and the bible as a whole, but it really only applies to Revelations, since the Bible didn’t exist at that time. And the Catholics created the Bible, it was others that altered their own version of it.
Please, open your heart and mind to learn the truth.
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