Ralphy's Questions for Catholics

[CentralFLJames]

In a different OP Ralphy started making many assertions that challenged Catholic belief and we got off topic trying to correct his misunderstandings about Catholics. To keep it on topic this thread is broken out from that one so we do not derail the original topic.

God is the only one who can forgive sin. Get away from this teaching of man befor you end up in hell. Jesus said “nobody comes to the Father but by Me”. Follow His word and nothing else, think about this statement please. Ralph

I go to the one who can forgive sin, God through Christ, I do not need anyone else between. There are no priests in the new testament, only in the Anglican and Roman Catholic church. We do not need priests,as we can now go directly to the throne of grace, through the Blood of Christ to God. The priests ended in the old testament. Ralph

Where did you ever find this place “purgatory”, do you know that only Catholics have a “purgatory” and not even God Himself mentioned this place. There are no degrees of sin, “mortal or venial sin” are the same. Only God can forgive sin. Get away from this teaching of man and get into the Bible (God’s Word). You will be judged by God’s word, the Bible. The catholic church make a lot of money from “purgatory”, paying for mass cards for the dead, I know these things from “having been there” one time. Ralph

Good day to you. First of all,I do not follow traditional, I follow the word of God. Jesus referred to the Pharisee"s about their traditions and gave them a blast. When my mother died at the age of 102, at the wake there was a big panick on because they ran out of mass cards, so the priest was summond and quickly found some,from the number of people attending the funeral, I would guess that around 5-6 hundred dollars was accumulated to say mass for the dead. This accumulation of money is a result of the catholic church teaching that people go to Purgatory and must be prayed out of there to get to heaven. Speaking of tradition, I cannot believe that anyone would believe that God would build His church on a human being (a sinner) like Peter… By the way the disciples are dead and while they were with Christ, He gave them special powers. These special powers were not passed on to anyone after that, otherwise the pope should be able to heal, right? The Bible my friend will judge you in the end. Ralph

In reference to your scripture quote 2 Cor 11:15, our works are not necessary for justification or salvation (if they are, then God did not do a complete job on the cross of calvary), read Eph 2:8/9. Ralph

ralphy seems genuinely interested in learning the truth and reconciling his understandings with Catholics.

Ok ralphy - let’s pick up here and see if we can get all your issues and questions answered.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

What I am saying, I totally rely on Gods word,the Holy Bible, written by man who were directed to write by the Holy Spirit as God would wanted them to write. The book of Mormon was written by man without direction of the Holy Spirit. Ralph

ralphy, Catholics revere the bible and also teach that it is inspired. But we know this because Jesus told us that “the gates of hell would never prevail against His Church” and because we know that He also promised us the Holy Spirit and because we Catholics are the ones who actually wrote and assembled the bible. But how do you know that the Holy Bible was written by the Holy Spirit and not by man? Is there a verse in the bible that tells you it is inspired and which explains what books belong in the bible? If you believe the bible is inspired you might want to come into the Catholic Church since we believe this too. You do know that it is important to be in Christ’s One Church right?

James

 

[ralphy]

ralphy, Catholics revere the bible and also teach that it is inspired. But we know this because Jesus told us that “the gates of hell would never prevail against His Church” and because we know that He also promised us the Holy Spirit and because we Catholics are the ones who actually wrote and assembled the bible. But how do you know that the Holy Bible was written by the Holy Spirit and not by man? Is there a verse in the bible that tells you it is inspired and which explains what books belong in the bible? If you believe the bible is inspired you might want to come into the Catholic Church since we believe this too. You do know that it is important to be in Christ’s One Church right?

James

If you read 2 Tim 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:20-21 you will see who wrote the Holy Bible. These discussions are certainly helping me to brush up on my Bible study. I read those articles you refered to, “Souls from purgatory”, “Rosary corfaternity” and “Chapel of devine mercy”. I find these articles all originated from mans teaching and cannot be found in scripture. As for Christs church; these are the called out ones of God and belong to the body of Christ, saved people, they have no denomination as there are only two kinds of people on earth, saved or unsaved. Ralph

 

[SteveGC]

If you read 2 Tim 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:20-21 you will see who wrote the Holy Bible. These discussions are certainly helping me to brush up on my Bible study. I read those articles you refered to, “Souls from purgatory”, “Rosary corfaternity” and “Chapel of devine mercy”. I find these articles all originated from mans teaching and cannot be found in scripture. As for Christs church; these are the called out ones of God and belong to the body of Christ, saved people, they have no denomination as there are only two kinds of people on earth, saved or unsaved. Ralph

Greetings, ralphy.

I don’t think James, nor any Catholic, refutes that the ultimate author of Scripture is the Holy Spirit, through the instrumentation of humans.

What James actually asked you, however, was…How do you know that this is true? Any book can have text in it that proclaims who it was written by, and all the proclamations can be false. So, just because you see the words written in the book, what James is asking is, why do you believe the book is written by the Holy Spirit simply because the book itself simply SAYS it is? The Koran also tells who it’s author is…do you believe that book too?

I have more questions for you, but I’ll dish them out one at a time.

God Bless

 

[Howie01]

What James actually asked you, however, was…How do you know that this is true?

By the testimony of the early church.

 

[SteveGC]

By the testimony of the early church.

Ok. I like that answer. Hopefully ralphy would consent to that answer also.

So. Now what?

Well…what we have to do is recognize and admit to ourselves (all of us) that the whole of our Christian faith is founded principally and, more to the point, originally, by what we learn from HUMANS…not a book (as important and sacred as Scripture is).

I would ask all non-Catholics to pause for a moment here. Retrace the steps of your Christian formation…all the way back to the beginning. Wind the clock forward. And then answer these questions…

Did you ever really learn ANYTHING of ANY salvific import by FIRST reading the Bible on your own with a prayer to the Spirit of God?

Didn’t you FIRST learn the essentials of Christianity from a human being, or a group of humans? Aren’t you basically still doing that to this day?

Didn’t you THEN, with this human-based framework and viewing lens, pick up your Bibles, and then absorb the text within the context of this human teaching?

I answer all these questions: YES. (I did this as a non-Catholic…I do it today as a Catholic).

I contend that everyone ever on earth (save for Jesus Himself) must also say: YES.

The obvious final question then, is this…Isn’t it therefore most critical for your salvation, your Christian walk, your life, to work diligently and without bias to discern which humans on earth are teaching Christianity the way Christ desires it to be taught? And isn’t the most obvious way of doing this by tracing the lineage of the apostles of Christ? Or, at the very least, look very closely and openly at any Church which actually proclaims to contain this lineage for all time? For how can you trust the ones who teach you, if you cannot discern that they have been “sent” by Christ (and hence, His apostles) to teach?

I’ll leave it at that for now…

 

[Howie01]

SteveGC:

Ok. I like that answer. Hopefully ralphy would consent to that answer also.

So. Now what?

Well…what we have to do is recognize and admit to ourselves (all of us) that the whole of our Christian faith is founded principally and, more to the point, originally, by what we learn from HUMANS…not a book (as important and sacred as Scripture is).

OK.

SteveGC:

I would ask all non-Catholics to pause for a moment here. Retrace the steps of your Christian formation…all the way back to the beginning. Wind the clock forward. And then answer these questions…

Did you ever really learn ANYTHING of ANY salvific import by FIRST reading the Bible on your own with a prayer to the Spirit of God?

Didn’t you FIRST learn the essentials of Christianity from a human being, or a group of humans? Aren’t you basically still doing that to this day?

Yes.

SteveGc:

Didn’t you THEN, with this human-based framework and viewing lens, pick up your Bibles, and then absorb the text within the context of this human teaching?

Some of it.

SteveGC:

I answer all these questions: YES. (I did this as a non-Catholic…I do it today as a Catholic).

I contend that everyone ever on earth (save for Jesus Himself) must also say: YES.

OK.

SteveGC:

The obvious final question then, is this…Isn’t it therefore most critical for your salvation, your Christian walk, your life, to work diligently and without bias to discern which humans on earth are teaching Christianity the way Christ desires it to be taught?

Yes.

SteveGC:

And isn’t the most obvious way of doing this by tracing the lineage of the apostles of Christ?

What does the lineage of the Peter, Andrew, James, John, etc. have to do with discerning who on earth is teaching Christianity as Christ desires it to be taught?

SteveGC:

Or, at the very least, look very closely and openly at any Church which actually proclaims to contain this lineage for all time?

What does lineage have to do with it?

SteveGC:

For how can you trust the ones who teach you, if you cannot discern that they have been “sent” by Christ (and hence, His apostles) to teach?

Scripture attests to the fact that Peter, Andrew, James, John, etc., sans Judas, were sent by Christ to teach.

 

[Lux_Caelum]

The following was taken from the other thread. I’m interested in understanding the protestant viewpoint of salvation better.

Quote from Ralphy:
Our works will not get us to heaven, we are saved by grace through faith. However our earthly works after salvation (the things we do for Christ) will be examined at the judgement seat of Christ (not to see if we enter heaven) but to see if thay have any value, are they the right things we done to further His kingdom or are they “stubble or hay” which will be burnt up (worth nothing). People who are saved still sin (we are still in the flesh), but one must confess that sin to God when they realize they have sinned. The blood of Jesus Christ covers all our sin, so when we come to Christ for salvation and accept Him as our personal Savior we are covered by His blood. Like the passover in the old testament, blood over the door posts and the death angel passed by. Jesus paid it all at Calvary, the work is done,our job is to turn to Him,repent of our sins, trust in His finished work on the cross and ask Him to come into our heart and save us, it’s just that straight forward and simple.He has no respect of persons, all may come and be saved. Ralph

People who are saved still sin? I was on a protestant site recently that explained it to me in a different way. They said that if someone repents and accepts Jesus but later falls back into a life of sin they were never truely saved. They stated that if someone is living a life in sin but thinks they are saved, there is a probability that they are being misled and should re-examine their salvation. This is still Once Saved Always Saved like you are stating but worded a little differently. You claim that once you accept Jesus and are saved you are forever saved even if you fall back into sin. These protestants also claim OSAS but if you are sinning then you’re not TRUELY SAVED.

I’ve also spoke with protestants who state that their church/pastor teaches that you CAN fall out of salvation. It is still salvation by faith but not OSAS.

So which is it and why are there discrepencies among your faith/bible only bretheren?

I’m not trying to trap you. I honestly want to better understand your position but I see different viewpoints among Pentacostal, Baptist, Lutheran etc. especially in regards to salvation. Is not salvation the most important thing in Christianity yet there is not unity among protestants?

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Lux

 

[paul_c]

OK.

Yes.

Some of it.

OK.

Yes.

What does the lineage of the Peter, Andrew, James, John, etc. have to do with discerning who on earth is teaching Christianity as Christ desires it to be taught?

What does lineage have to do with it?

Scripture attests to the fact that Peter, Andrew, James, John, etc., sans Judas, were sent by Christ to teach.

The reason he brings this up is the only way to really discern the truth of teaching is to be able to trace that teaching back to the Apostles. The Catholic Churches teachings are actually well documented back the entire 2000 years through the writings of the Early Church Fathers and the records of the many councils so you can accurately test their integrity by the continuity and consistency through the records. You should be very suspicious of any new interpretation or dogma that can’t be traced by into antiquity…

 

[CentralFLJames]

If you read 2 Tim 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:20-21 you will see who wrote the Holy Bible. These discussions are certainly helping me to brush up on my Bible study. I read those articles you refered to, “Souls from purgatory”, “Rosary corfaternity” and “Chapel of devine mercy”. I find these articles all originated from mans teaching and cannot be found in scripture. As for Christs church; these are the called out ones of God and belong to the body of Christ, saved people, they have no denomination as there are only two kinds of people on earth, saved or unsaved. Ralph

Thanks for checking out my signature links. I mostly put those there for Catholics since these are very powerful prayers and we Catholics as you might know are very very into daily prayer. For you I highly recommend you pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet since its all about Jesus and God’s Mercy only. This is a Protestant friendly prayer that we believe God loves to hear very much. But the full information behind these links is very advanced Catholicism so for the sake of simplicity let’s not talk about these yet since we have many more fundamental things we need to get you aware of about Catholic belief and discussing these things might distract from that.

OK so you say Ralphy: If you read 2 Tim 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:20-21 you will see who wrote the Holy Bible.

I am surprised that you did not put those verses in your own words to tell me since its important to me to know HOW you interpret scripture. Don’t you imagine that there are quite a few different people with different ideas about what a particular verse says? For example we know that world wide there are over 32,000+ different Protestant denominations that all think they are the true church and have the true interpretation of scripture. How do YOU, RALPHY, know for certain that YOU have the right interpretation? You see this is one of the problems that Catholics have with Protestants who each want to have the right to self interpret their bible verses.

I examined those verses and have the following comments to you.

*2 Tim 3:16
All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness.

2 Peter 1:20-21
Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, 21 for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God. *

You surprised me by using 2 Peter 1:20 since this is the very verse that Catholics use to warn Protestants that they may not self interpret scripture. Private interpretation means that no one can use their own minds out side of the Church to interpret scripture.

But did you know what “scripture” Paul is speaking of in 2 Tim 3:16?
You do realize that this is not referring to the NT don’t you? Paul and all the apostles grew up learning Jewish OT teaching. When they used the term “scripture” they mean the Old Testament. The New Testament was not all written at the time Paul said this. Further, Paul did not have the slightest clue that what he was saying or writing was “inspired” at the time. He did not know that John would later write Revelation for example. The Apostles did not all sit down and decide to write “the NT”. No, they all just taught ORALLY as Christ commanded and then 20-30 or so years later their disciples started writing things down. But mostly teaching was by word of mouth and by traditions. There is no NT or Bible for 350 more years when Catholic Pope Damasus at the Council of Rome told St. Jerome to translate it all into latin language and approved the books that were to be put into the bible. This is how the world got its first bible.

Did you also know that before the bible was assembled that Christianity had fake Christians running around proclaiming false gospels. Before the bible is published by the Catholic Church there were over 300 fake texts and it was very confusing. This is why the Catholic Church decided that only 27 NT books of the over 300 or so were the real ones. How do you know that The Catholic Church picked the right books and the right numbers of books and that your bible contains all the right ones?

James

 

[paul_c]

The following was taken from the other thread. I’m interested in understanding the protestant viewpoint of salvation better.

Quote from Ralphy:
Our works will not get us to heaven, we are saved by grace through faith. However our earthly works after salvation (the things we do for Christ) will be examined at the judgement seat of Christ (not to see if we enter heaven) but to see if thay have any value, are they the right things we done to further His kingdom or are they “stubble or hay” which will be burnt up (worth nothing). People who are saved still sin (we are still in the flesh), but one must confess that sin to God when they realize they have sinned. The blood of Jesus Christ covers all our sin, so when we come to Christ for salvation and accept Him as our personal Savior we are covered by His blood. Like the passover in the old testament, blood over the door posts and the death angel passed by. Jesus paid it all at Calvary, the work is done,our job is to turn to Him,repent of our sins, trust in His finished work on the cross and ask Him to come into our heart and save us, it’s just that straight forward and simple.He has no respect of persons, all may come and be saved. Ralph

People who are saved still sin? I was on a protestant site recently that explained it to me in a different way. They said that if someone repents and accepts Jesus but later falls back into a life of sin they were never truely saved. They stated that if someone is living a life in sin but thinks they are saved, there is a probability that they are being misled and should re-examine their salvation. This is still Once Saved Always Saved like you are stating but worded a little differently. You claim that once you accept Jesus and are saved you are forever saved even if you fall back into sin. These protestants also claim OSAS but if you are sinning then you’re not TRUELY SAVED.

I’ve also spoke with protestants who state that their church/pastor teaches that you CAN fall out of salvation. It is still salvation by faith but not OSAS.

So which is it and why are there discrepencies among your faith/bible only bretheren?

I’m not trying to trap you. I honestly want to better understand your position but I see different viewpoints among Pentacostal, Baptist, Lutheran etc. especially in regards to salvation. Is not salvation the most important thing in Christianity yet there is not unity among protestants?

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Lux

This is a common topic on CAF. The answers we typically get on the realities of OSAS virtually always start with the concept of predestination. If you are predestined to heaven, then of course you are saved. From here, the OSAS discussion breaks down into two camps. One Camp, the most liberal in terms of salvation, asserts that you can tell the elect by whether they acknowledge that Jesus is our Lord and Savior. Once they have done so, you can tell they are the elect and nothing they can do in life will prevent their predestined appointment in Heaven. Catholics of course have a problem with this because scripture itself shows that simple acknowledgement of Jesus as the son of God is insufficient to demonstrate you are one of the elect. Afterall, the demons that Jesus drove out, often acknowledged him as the son of God, yet they were clearly not of the elect. The second objection against this view is it requires our Just God to call people innocent, even if they commit crimes after their acknowledgment of Jesus as the Son of God.

The second camp recognizes these two problems and instead will acknowledge that those that sin were never actually saved. This is very close to the Catholic position in that you can never know if someone is actually among the elect until they die because only then does the possiblity of turning away (or repentence) end. So in this case, OSAS becomes effectively another rendering of the concept of predestination, because no one knows for sure that they have been saved.

 

[adriancombe]

Re: Ralphy’s Questions for Catholics

Quote:
Originally Posted by ralphy
God is the only one who can forgive sin. Get away from this teaching of man befor you end up in hell. Jesus said “nobody comes to the Father but by Me”. Follow His word and nothing else, think about this statement please. Ralph<<

Ralph, you stated: "God is the only one who can forgive sin. ". While it is true that this statement occurs in Scripture, it is used by Jesus enemies to discredit Him:

Mark 2
(2:7) how doth this fellow so blaspheme? Who can forgiven sins, but God only?

Then Jesus tells them they are thinking wrongly:

(2:8) And immediately when Iesus perceived in his spirit, that they so reasoned in themselves, he said unto them: why think ye such things in your hearts?

What Jesus teaches is the opposite:

Matthew 6

(6:14) For and if ye shall forgive other men their trespasses, your father in heaven shall also forgive you.

(6:15) But and ye will not forgive men their trespasses, no more shall, your father forgive your trespasses.

So you see it is Ralph, not the Catholic Church, who is promoting the teaching of men.

 

[CentralFLJames]

This is a common topic on CAF. The answers we typically get on the realities of OSAS virtually always start with the concept of predestination. If you are predestined to heaven, then of course you are saved. From here, the OSAS discussion breaks down into two camps. One Camp, the most liberal in terms of salvation, asserts that you can tell the elect by whether they acknowledge that Jesus is our Lord and Savior. Once they have done so, you can tell they are the elect and nothing they can do in life will prevent their predestined appointment in Heaven. Catholics of course have a problem with this because scripture itself shows that simple acknowledgement of Jesus as the son of God is insufficient to demonstrate you are one of the elect. Afterall, the demons that Jesus drove out, often acknowledged him as the son of God, yet they were clearly not of the elect. The second objection against this view is it requires our Just God to call people innocent, even if they commit crimes after their acknowledgment of Jesus as the Son of God.

The second camp recognizes these two problems and instead will acknowledge that those that sin were never actually saved. This is very close to the Catholic position in that you can never know if someone is actually among the elect until they die because only then does the possiblity of turning away (or repentence) end. So in this case, OSAS becomes effectively another rendering of the concept of predestination, because no one knows for sure that they have been saved.

Which begs the question why anyone who believes in the error of double predestiny (where God predestines some to hell and some to heaven) or even conventional predestiny (some God predestines to heaven) is pragmatically of any use to anyone and why anyone should worry? Under either fatalistic form of thinking its all decided independent of what one might think if they are elect or not. At best it lets somone who thinks he is destined to hell for not being able to control his disordered passions and sinning so much to just accept his fate, have fun and go right along sinning more since he already doomed. It’s all encouraging a sort of “eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die” mentality for those who lose faith and give up in thinking they must not be one of the elect since he keeps lusting after his beautiful Sunday school teacher. the other extreme that I have actually debated here on CAF is that some imagine they are elect and think they can’t sin since anything they do wrong is pre-forgiven and its ok to cave in now and then to “being human” and having an occasional fling. Not kidding - a few actually believe this where as the more conscionable ones will say “well clearly he was not really saved”.

It’s a crazy way of thinking. All any Christian should do is trust in Jesus and try earnestly to do all they can do to cooperate with grace AND advance in holiness by doing what Christ commands. But as soon as a Protestant hears a “verb” in any sentence he acts like he has seen the devil, puts up crosses and then says “thats works and works are evil!”. But at the same time he will work to profess he belief with loud cries of “hallelujah I believe” but exempt that work as “ok”. The saddest thing is that most just can’t accept that its all grace and works are an animation of that same grace working through and in cooperation with us and that works are a necessary signal sign of salvation (assuming we persevere to the very end).

Protestants Apologetic Works of jumping every which way through scripture hoops (except the most direct and true way) to deny Catholic teaching seem to be another exempted work in the Protestant tradition of a fear-of-works based theology.

James

 

[Lux_Caelum]

This is a common topic on CAF. The answers we typically get on the realities of OSAS virtually always start with the concept of predestination. If you are predestined to heaven, then of course you are saved. From here, the OSAS discussion breaks down into two camps. One Camp, the most liberal in terms of salvation, asserts that you can tell the elect by whether they acknowledge that Jesus is our Lord and Savior. Once they have done so, you can tell they are the elect and nothing they can do in life will prevent their predestined appointment in Heaven. Catholics of course have a problem with this because scripture itself shows that simple acknowledgement of Jesus as the son of God is insufficient to demonstrate you are one of the elect. Afterall, the demons that Jesus drove out, often acknowledged him as the son of God, yet they were clearly not of the elect. The second objection against this view is it requires our Just God to call people innocent, even if they commit crimes after their acknowledgment of Jesus as the Son of God.

The second camp recognizes these two problems and instead will acknowledge that those that sin were never actually saved. This is very close to the Catholic position in that you can never know if someone is actually among the elect until they die because only then does the possiblity of turning away (or repentence) end. So in this case, OSAS becomes effectively another rendering of the concept of predestination, because no one knows for sure that they have been saved.

Paul, thanks for breaking this down for me. The second camp does seem much closer to my Catholic understanding of salvation. So basically it comes down to confidence or maybe arrogance? The first camp is claiming they are 100% for sure saved no matter what whereas the rest of us HOPE we are saved based on our belief and how we live.

One more question. If a Catholic were to live half of his life holy (ie not commiting mortal sins and when doing so receiving the sacrament of confession) but then mid way through life leaving the Church and falling prey to a sinful life…then dying. Is it likely this person was predestined to NOT be one of the elect and be saved?

I’m not saying they didn’t have choices but God knew all along their outcome because he is All Knowing. So in essence at this very moment, God knows whether or not I will ultimately be saved or not? But I will not know until I die. I agree with this but I’m still trying to wrap my head around it.

Lux

 

[SteveGC]

What does the lineage of the Peter, Andrew, James, John, etc. have to do with discerning who on earth is teaching Christianity as Christ desires it to be taught?

What does lineage have to do with it?

Scripture attests to the fact that Peter, Andrew, James, John, etc., sans Judas, were sent by Christ to teach.

Where else do we go?

We know we are all taught first by humans (not Bibles), and these humans have taught us the following, which we believe (in part because it’s universally revealed in Scripture)…

We believe in God, and in His Son

and we believe that He personally taught 12 people,

and we agree that these 12 were “sent”,

and that Christ would be with them always…

Therefore, isn’t what happened to the teachings of the 12 after they left the earth enormously important? Isn’t therefore their lineage…their precise succession…of the most signficance to us as followers of Christ? Don’t we have to discern if our church is part of this succession in some plausible, identifiable way?

As for the rest of the story, refer to the brief comment by paul (post #9)

God Bless

 

[Lux_Caelum]

Which begs the question why anyone who believes in the error of double predestiny (where God predestines some to hell and some to heaven) or even conventional predestiny (some God predestines to heaven) is pragmatically of any use to anyone and why anyone should worry? Under either fatalistic form of thinking its all decided independent of what one might think if they are elect or not. At best it lets somone who thinks he is destined to hell for not being able to control his disordered passions and sinning so much to just accept his fate, have fun and go right along sinning more since he already doomed. It’s all encouraging a sort of “eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die” mentality for those who lose faith and give up in thinking they must not be one of the elect since he keeps lusting after his beautiful Sunday school teacher. the other extreme that I have actually debated here on CAF is that some imagine they are elect and think they can’t sin since anything they do wrong is pre-forgiven and its ok to cave in now and then to “being human” and having an occasional fling. Not kidding - a few actually believe this where as the more conscionable ones will say “well clearly he was not really saved”.

It’s a crazy way of thinking. All any Christian should do is trust in Jesus and try earnestly to do all they can do to cooperate with grace AND advance in holiness by doing what Christ commands. But as soon as a Protestant hears a “verb” in any sentence he acts like he has seen the devil, puts up crosses and then says “thats works and works are evil!”. But at the same time he will work to profess he belief with loud cries of “hallelujah I believe” but exempt that work as “ok”. The saddest thing is that most just can’t accept that its all grace and works are an animation of that same grace working through and in cooperation with us and that works are a necessary signal sign of salvation (assuming we persevere to the very end).

Protestants Apologetic Works of jumping every which way through scripture hoops (except the most direct and true way) to deny Catholic teaching seem to be another exempted work in the Protestant tradition of a fear-of-works based theology.

James

This is VERY good information, thank you. I like your advice about quit worrying and just do your best to trust in Jesus and advance in holiness.

That part about Protestants and verbs above, I am literally laughing out loud, too funny.

 

[Howie01]

SteveGC:

Where else do we go?

We know we are all taught first by humans (not Bibles), and these humans have taught us the following, which we believe (in part because it’s universally revealed in Scripture)…

We believe in God, and in His Son

and we believe that He personally taught 12 people,

and we agree that these 12 were “sent”,

and that Christ would be with them always…

That’s all you were taught?

SteveGC:

Therefore, isn’t what happened to the teachings of the 12 after they left the earth enormously important?

We know what happened to their teachings, they were written down.

SteveGC:

Isn’t therefore their lineage…their precise succession…of the most signficance to us as followers of Christ?

It’s a consideration, but it’s not the most significant for me.

SteveGC:

Don’t we have to discern if our church is part of this succession in some plausible, identifiable way?

Does a Church’s teaching comport with Scripture; that is the identifiable way.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Paul, thanks for breaking this down for me. The second camp does seem much closer to my Catholic understanding of salvation. So basically it comes down to confidence or maybe arrogance? The first camp is claiming they are 100% for sure saved no matter what whereas the rest of us HOPE we are saved based on our belief and how we live.

One more question. If a Catholic were to live half of his life holy (ie not commiting mortal sins and when doing so receiving the sacrament of confession) but then mid way through life leaving the Church and falling prey to a sinful life…then dying. Is it likely this person was predestined to NOT be one of the elect and be saved?

I’m not saying they didn’t have choices but God knew all along their outcome because he is All Knowing. So in essence at this very moment, God knows whether or not I will ultimately be saved or not? But I will not know until I die. I agree with this but I’m still trying to wrap my head around it.

Lux

First of all what you are suggesting is not probable. The whole thing about Catholic belief is the idea of initial justification in baptism then a progressive life long progression in sanctification and growing in holiness. As we grow and prove ourselves God gives us progressively more grace. Grace is powerful stuff and it helps fortify us against temptations as we advance in holiness. But you are not in this alone either. There is The Church and the mighty Communion of The Saints. This is why The Church is absolutely so vital to our salvation - not just because of the 7 sacraments but also because of the enormous merits of the Church itself and the prayer and intercessory power of the entire Church. A Catholic who is well catechized has so many of Christ’s gifts working 24/7 to help us. We have the sacrament of confession to keep us pure of sin and we have the mighty Eucharist for grace and the anointings of the sick. Not to mention that we all each get potent spiritual gifts during baptism and confirmation. Marriage to is a sacrament with its own graces and blessings. But it is the prayer of the saints and each other that are really cool too. These are available to us 24/7 without having to do anything. God grants special graces based on the intercessions. Each mass we say releases ever more grace through the Church and the higher we maintain ourselves in holiness the more efficacious our prayers become to help ourselves and others. In fact we are all a priesthood in this way and are part of God’s salvation plan for the rest of the world who does not have sacramental grace.

On top of all this God is constantly flowing supernatural “actual grace” to help people repent and come to him.

Trust me here - no one who wants to be saved won’t be. God won’t let anyone out of his hand who wants to hold hands with him. But God will respect free will and permit one to turn their back if they choose to.

While God knows who will ultimately reject Him he does not prejudice His love by that fact. God does not cheat - he gives each person the grace sufficient for their salvation irrespective of the knowledge he has. It is only those who become obstinate in pride who will turn away. The longer you avail of God’s grace the harder it is to fail since you become saintly at resisting temptation out of true motive - rather than fear of hell it becomes sadness and remorse of offending God in the Person. Hell is not even on our minds at this point of a relationship - its more like being in awe of God so much that you both fear and love him at the same time. The fear is the respect at how awesome he is and how undeserving we are and that he so loves each person that he would obliterate planets, stars and galaxies to save us if we were lost and called Him to save us. He let His own Son die for us! Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Again - don’t worry about predestiny. It’s only for academics really. Make your own destiny by choosing to be an elect and then that is your destiny. What I might also suggest is you do the Sacred Heart of Jesus and Immaculate Heart of Mary devotionals too since these have a promise of final repentance and this will ease your mind. Be warned though - God loves to dupe. I did these and now I am like non stop praying and reading scripture and reading up on the saints and praying like its my entire life. God will pull you into the deep end and in fact calls us all to be saints and will make us into one if we let Him…

James

 

[SteveGC]

That’s all you were taught?

Of course not. I am selecting certain fundamentals about the use of humans in God’s plan to teach His creation.

We know what happened to their teachings, they were written down.

And how do you know it was all written down? Even the good Book says many of Christ’s teachings were NOT written down. If you pull a 2 Timothy 3:16–17 out of the hat, you would have to admit this refers to Old Testament Scripture. And regardless, even if it DID refer to the future, complete Bible, these verses nowhere say that a person is to teach himself - the very fact that Paul is physically there with Christians teaching them is evidence of the fact that accounts of teaching in the Bible are acts done by humans first, not written words first. In fact, nowhere in the Bible is anyone trying to read Scripture first. Well, there is one. The Ethiopian eunuch is trying to, and it becomes clear that Philip (a deacon ordained by the apostles) must first teach him. The point is, Christian teaching is always a human act FIRST. The Bible attests to this fact.

Does a Church’s teaching comport with Scripture; that is the identifiable way.

Comport with which interpretation of Scripture?

God Bless

 

[Lux_Caelum]

First of all what you are suggesting is not probable. The whole thing about Catholic belief is the idea of initial justification in baptism then a progressive life long progression in sanctification and growing in holiness. As we grow and prove ourselves God gives us progressively more grace. Grace is powerful stuff and it helps fortify us against temptations as we advance in holiness. But you are not in this alone either. There is The Church and the mighty Communion of The Saints. This is why The Church is absolutely so vital to our salvation - not just because of the 7 sacraments but also because of the enormous merits of the Church itself and the prayer and intercessory power of the entire Church. A Catholic who is well catechized has so many of Christ’s gifts working 24/7 to help us. We have the sacrament of confession to keep us pure of sin and we have the mighty Eucharist for grace and the anointings of the sick. Not to mention that we all each get potent spiritual gifts during baptism and confirmation. Marriage to is a sacrament with its own graces and blessings. But it is the prayer of the saints and each other that are really cool too. These are available to us 24/7 without having to do anything. God grants special graces based on the intercessions. Each mass we say releases ever more grace through the Church and the higher we maintain ourselves in holiness the more efficacious our prayers become to help ourselves and others. In fact we are all a priesthood in this way and are part of God’s salvation plan for the rest of the world who does not have sacramental grace.

On top of all this God is constantly flowing supernatural “actual grace” to help people repent and come to him.

Trust me here - no one who wants to be saved won’t be. God won’t let anyone out of his hand who wants to hold hands with him. But God will respect free will and permit one to turn their back if they choose to.

While God knows who will ultimately reject Him he does not prejudice His love by that fact. God does not cheat - he gives each person the grace sufficient for their salvation irrespective of the knowledge he has. It is only those who become obstinate in pride who will turn away. The longer you avail of God’s grace the harder it is to fail since you become saintly at resisting temptation out of true motive - rather than fear of hell it becomes sadness and remorse of offending God in the Person. Hell is not even on our minds at this point of a relationship - its more like being in awe of God so much that you both fear and love him at the same time. The fear is the respect at how awesome he is and how undeserving we are and that he so loves each person that he would obliterate planets, stars and galaxies to save us if we were lost and called Him to save us. He let His own Son die for us! Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Again - don’t worry about predestiny. It’s only for academics really. Make your own destiny by choosing to be an elect and then that is your destiny. What I might also suggest is you do the Sacred Heart of Jesus and Immaculate Heart of Mary devotionals too since these have a promise of final repentance and this will ease your mind. Be warned though - God loves to dupe. I did these and now I am like non stop praying and reading scripture and reading up on the saints and praying like its my entire life. God will pull you into the deep end and in fact calls us all to be saints and will make us into one if we let Him…

James

Wow, good stuff again James. I try to pray the rosary regularly but what is this Sacred Heart of Jesus and Heart of Mary devotional? It that the divine mercy chaplet you link for your signature?

Lux