Ralphy's Questions for Catholics

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You are just passing the buck in search of a different standard to avoid admitting the rationally obvious necessity for The Church in the role of scripture interpreter. So rather than recognize scripture through discernment of spirit The Church is only capable of recognizing “inspired authors”? No doubt there had to be a list of “who” these inspired authors were ahead of time? Where do you suppose it was? It’s not in the bible. Are you trying to grant the church the ability of prophesy here or limited infallability Howie? You have to give up something. Admit it - without the Catholic Church and her authority to discern and interpret scripture you have no bible… Present your evidence of these other “many” who believed the same thing. Calling your bluff here…

For starters you need their teaching authority so you can “receive” the word that you all are trying to torture into saying ungodly things (well meaning of course) to push on others.
And you then need the apostolic authority so you can be assured of being forgiven of your sins for unauthorized teaching and passing of error to the unsuspecting who’s salvation necessitate the truth - not latent neo-Chrisitan theories that won’t save anyone.

No it would be said just like it is:

Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.


Notice that the operative phrase is “but he who DOES the will of my Father”. “Does” is a verb. Does in an ACTION. AN ACTION is a work of grace. That requires more than a mere work of flapping the lips to ascend to heaven with a flurry of “I believe” statements. It means obeying ALL Jesus’ commandments and that also means listening to and obeying those who Jesus sent to teach. That means carrying one’s cross. That means REPENTING of sins. That means caring showing mercy etc. In other words it means demonstrating who the man is behind the lips. Judas tried the kissy on the lips works - but he ended up not having the guts to ascend to heaven under the gravity of sin and spilled them out all over the rocks. Speaking of rocks do you recall how Goliath got brained through his own temple and decapitated? And do you remember who The Church is built on?

*Matthew 16:18
“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon **this rock ***I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.”

Get with the program Howie - God is giving you all kinds of hints.

Believers in what gospel though is the important matter? I don’t question your commitment to your faith. I just question who’s faith it is you are following. It’s certainly not the apostolic faith that Catholics have received continuously for 2,000 years.

So you do have a street address. Do you all have any evidence of anyone actually ever being “saved” from your faith community?

How do you know that you are following the proper guidelines?
Who has the authority to judge in these matters? Is your judge infallable?

So somone in your faith community is charisma with infallability? You all have a pope?
Who gets to decide on interpretation of scripture? Is it a majority rule system like a democracy? Does a democracy define truth?

The church is both visible and invisible? Does it include the Lutherans and the baptists, and the Mormons and the Catholics too? Who gets to decide who is in your club?
Who is in the invisible Church?

You believe in a chain of command?!! So do Catholics! We believe that that chain is from heaven to earth through the pontiff and thence through the bishops thence through the priests and deacons to the laity. Our clerics are all approved by an apostolic bishop since these have the original authority passed down from Peter. Where doe your authority come from and who appoints who? How do you know they are qualified?

[continued]

James
I cannot believe that anyone would believe that christ would build His church on a human being and a sinner at that, namely Peter. Christ is building His church on Himself , the Solid Rock. Peter is dead, Christ is still alive and interceding for us at the right hand of God. PTL, Ralph.
 
But that wasn’t a quote from scripture so now you are a liar?
Read John 12:48, this will be your judgement in the last day.If you call me a liar after reading this, then you are calling God a liar for I only quoted Him. Ralph
 
I cannot believe that anyone would believe that christ would build His church on a human being and a sinner at that, namely Peter. Christ is building His church on Himself , the Solid Rock. Peter is dead, Christ is still alive and interceding for us at the right hand of God. PTL, Ralph.
Do you think ANY of those 12 men were scholarly, sinless individuals? We ALL are. But, Jesus knew what He was doing and did it the WAY HE wanted it done. Who are any of us to question Christ’s decisions?

Do you understand anything from the OT that is foreshadowing? The Keys…David’s Key given to Peter. Rock meaning Kepha/Petra/Petros, has been gone over and over - “YOU are Kepha.” Whenever God changes someones name, it means that person is being placed in a position of authority. Feed my sheep. You have to ignore a lot of Scripture and 2,000 years worth of Church history to come to the less than 500 year-old conclusion that you come to.
 
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CentralFLJames:
But I think you are making another rash assumption in saying “the apostles” (plural) knew they were writing scripture.
You know, I can’t think of any protestant writer that I’ve read who hasn’t stated that Peter is calling Paul’s writing Scripture, on an equal footing with the OT. But I admit, I haven’t read every protestant writer.
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CentralFLJames:
Your entire theory on sola scriptura, which was never before taught by an apostle, hangs on a single ambiguous word intepretation.
Not so, James, it’s built upon many OT passages, as well NT passages. If you’d like some reading links on the subject, say so, and I’ll give them to you.
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CentralFLJames:
You are willing to toss out 1500 years of apostolic teaching on that one ambiguity?
Not all of the teachings, James.
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CentralFLJames:
Amazing bet on one’s eternity…
Eternity is a bet only to those who attempt to get to into heaven on some combination of grace and works, and it’s a losing bet at that.
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CentralFLJames:
Ok fair enough. Where in the bible does it list those passages that are hard to understand and which are easy to understand?
Contextually, it’s those passages concerning the second coming.
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CentralFLJames:
For the record, I will be forthright and say that Catholics hold that scripture is a fairly clear document and able to be understood by the average educated reader, BUT also that the Church is needed to provide a doctrinal norm, an overall frame-work for determining proper biblical interpretation.
I’m in a reformed church, James, and reformed churches have a doctrinal norm, and an overall framework and hermeneutic for determining proper biblical interpretation.
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CentralFLJames:
Luther argued that the “plowboy” filled with the Holy Spirit could interpret scripture…
Hey, Jesus said “sheep” could do it. They can accurately hear His voice and follow Him. 🤷
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CentralFLJames:
You are projecting your own wishful thinking Howie. There is no physical way to base scriptural teaching on NT that does not yet exist!! For heaven’s sake - you must be reasonable. You can’t have your cake and eat it too before the cake is even baked!! Only an obstinate person would camp out on such a ridiculous notion. How can one ratify the interpretation of scripture with future verses that might contradict what one is trying to confirm. No way - this is utter non-linear thinking. You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to jump through every hoop you can to avoid the truth. That is not indicative of somone using reason that is a sure marker of somone obstinate in their own beliefs.

There is a difference between what God permits and what God wills. The Church was not divided until the errors of sola scriptura resulted in 32,000+ seperated Protestant sects. Catholics see this is a tragic loss at the same time we see it as God purifying His Church from heresy and errror. In my opinion its like isolating lepers to a penal colony to protect the flock until a cure can be found or God has to burn the loss. Scripture tells us over and over again That Jesus prayed for unity. The only way unity can still be claimed in the church is in the unity of the preserved main branch of the Church - which is the Catholic Church since we are the original root founded in the apostles. No other Christian church can claim this since all others are down stream of us without historical roots and won’t long survive in separation since error begets error until it becomes useless or repents.

So by saying that God let scripture be lost according to His will then by your own judgement you might as well be also saying that God let Protestants be lost by His will.

Pick your poison - bad judgement or ending up on the wrong side of double predestiny?
James, the only sure truth is God’s truth, and the only true and sure repository of God’s truth is in the Scripture. ISTM the reason you fight against SS is, many of the beliefs you hold dear can’t be substantiated by Scripture. :nope:

(continued)
 
(continued from 84)

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CentralFLJames:
Fair enough - present your evidence and your advocates. Who in the entire universe of scholars can bring forth credible opinion to back your case? I’d honestly love to see real academic references here.
As I said earlier, James, I’ve yet to read a protestant writer who doesn’t hold the view that apostles knew they were writing scripture.
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CentralFLJames:
By the way I don’t like being called dishonest.
Then take greater care in the way you phrase things.
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CentralFLJames:
You are evading again. Answer my question.
I did answer your question, James, and at the end of that answer, I asked you two questions that you’re evading.
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CentralFLJames:
So are you in an affiliation “franchise” church? Do you pay fees to a corporate HQ so can use the franchise name and answer to anyone or is there some kind of “bible-only” grass root’s organization put together on a Craig’s List network model?
We’re an independent church, Reformed, with an emphasis on evangelism.
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CentralFLJames:
What do you mean by robust? Do you all come together to do community events to feed the poor and do good works?
All that and much, much more.
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CentralFLJames:
This is your opinion. But the only authority attested to in the NT is when Jesus “God breathed” on the apostles and gave the APOSTLES the authority.
Paul makes the statement, James: pasa graphā theopneustos. 🤷
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CentralFLJames:
You ask a leading question that will not get us to the truth of the matter.
Look James, the truth of the matter is that appointed leaders of the churches are not referred to as apostles. And it’s not an issue that Church developed apostolic terminology concerning her leadership, and that she created the office of Pope and it’s accompanying charisms, including infallibility; the issue is, was she right in doing so?
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CentralFLJames:
Notice that the operative phrase is “but he who DOES the will of my Father”. “Does” is a verb. Does in an ACTION. AN ACTION is a work of grace. That requires more than a mere work of flapping the lips to ascend to heaven with a flurry of “I believe” statements. It means obeying ALL Jesus’ commandments and that also means listening to and obeying those who Jesus sent to teach. That means carrying one’s cross. That means REPENTING of sins. That means caring showing mercy etc. In other words it means demonstrating who the man is behind the lips. Judas tried the kissy on the lips works - but he ended up not having the guts to ascend to heaven under the gravity of sin and spilled them out all over the rocks. Speaking of rocks do you recall how Goliath got brained through his own temple and decapitated? And do you remember who The Church is built on?
The passage is more than one verse. Go to verse 22, where they plead their works.
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CentralFLJames:
So somone in your faith community is charisma with infallability?
No one has the charism of infallibility, James, no one.
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CentralFLJames:
Who gets to decide on interpretation of scripture?
The preacher preachers, most of the congregation take notes, and are encouraged to bring discrepancies to the attention of whoever’s in the pulpit.
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CentralFLJames:
Is it a majority rule system like a democracy?
Elder rule.
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CentralFLJames:
Does a democracy define truth?
No, does historical lineage?
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CentralFLJames:
The church is both visible and invisible? Who is in the invisible Church?
Start with Augustine, who coined the concept, and from there move to Calvin.
 
Read John 12:48, this will be your judgement in the last day.If you call me a liar after reading this, then you are calling God a liar for I only quoted Him. Ralph
Not so fast, not so fast Ralphy! Paul already beat you to it and calls you and he and everyone a liar. But I am not sure I can take him to be telling me the truth that he is really a liar since he went circular on us. What do you think? Is he lieing or telling us the truth that he and all men are liars?

Romans 3:9-19
What shall we conclude then? Are we any better
*? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
There is no one righteous, not even one**;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[c]
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."[d]
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[e]
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[f]
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."[g]
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."[h]
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

James*
 
CentralFLJames said:
…You need to come into The Catholic Church before its tossed into the fire.

:eek: Why would Ralphy want to do that?

Funny how truth finds it way into your statements, eh James? 😃
 
:eek: Why would Ralphy want to do that?

Funny how truth finds it way into your statements, eh James? 😃
Actually, I thought it was funnier how you just took him out of context there, and how similar that is to your treatment of Scripture. 😃
 
This is VERY good information, thank you. I like your advice about quit worrying and just do your best to trust in Jesus and advance in holiness.

That part about Protestants and verbs above, I am literally laughing out loud, too funny.:rotfl:
Something about what I said about predestiny has been bothering me and I wanted to clarify. I made some whimsical comments that predestiny is a fatalistic form of thinking and encourages one to abandon oneself to what one’s fate and cave in sin etc.

Predestiny, the right kind, where God predestines some souls to heaven and none to hell (in other words not double predestiny) can be used in a more positive sense as a signal grace to give us confidence one is saved. Clearly if one is not sinning and is beating old bad habits and vices then grace is working and its looking quite good. Thus one could take encouragement in that positive aspect of predestiny as long as one does not get a big head about it and declare oneself “saved” before God gets to judge the matter.

That said I also want to say that the biggest error in the Protestant predestiny theories is that they do not see how predestiny is co-joined with OUR free will. Yes, God knows who will reject or accept Him - but we don’t. Yes there is in some certain sense a notion (for God to know) of predestiny but that predestiny is intimately a function of our free will choices. In other words when God Creates He knows your choices before hand and had already knit that into YOUR destiny, So we all FULLY OWN our own destiny and are responsible for it. God predestines NO ONE to hell. If one wants to be saved one must only choose to be saved and then by definition one will be an “elect” if one holds to that conviction and finishes in grace. Its ALL a function of OUR will and our cooperation with God’s grace and no one else’s. That also includes responding to actial grace that would lead somone into the fullness of truth (e.g. The Catholic Church). God is just there to give us all the grace sufficient for our salvation and to correct us when we get out in the weeds - whether we CHOOSE to use that grace or cooperate with it or not.

James
 
Read John 12:48, this will be your judgement in the last day.If you call me a liar after reading this, then you are calling God a liar for I only quoted Him. Ralph
Your quote from post #63 “I came here to let Catholics know that they are to be judged by the Word of God (the bible), not by the teachings of man.”

Your statement in post #68 “I only quote from scripture, it is not my word, it is the word of God, which has existed for 2000 yrs.”

This is John 12:48 " He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day."

I asked if you were a liar BECAUSE you claim to quote from scripture but your statement from post#63 is NOT John 12:48!

You are trying to interpret John 12:48 “sayings” and “the word that I have spoken” to be synonymous with your statement “Word of God (the bible), not by the teachings of man”. They are not the same.

You are putting your own words into scripture! If you want to provide your own interpretation fine but don’t claim to be quoting scripture unless you are giving us the exact words.

Lux
 
Something about what I said about predestiny has been bothering me and I wanted to clarify. I made some whimsical comments that predestiny is a fatalistic form of thinking and encourages one to abandon oneself to what one’s fate and cave in sin etc.

Predestiny, the right kind, where God predestines some souls to heaven and none to hell (in other words not double predestiny) can be used in a more positive sense as a signal grace to give us confidence one is saved. Clearly if one is not sinning and is beating old bad habits and vices then grace is working and its looking quite good. Thus one could take encouragement in that positive aspect of predestiny as long as one does not get a big head about it and declare oneself “saved” before God gets to judge the matter.

That said I also want to say that the biggest error in the Protestant predestiny theories is that they do not see how predestiny is co-joined with OUR free will. Yes, God knows who will reject or accept Him - but we don’t. Yes there is in some certain sense a notion (for God to know) of predestiny but that predestiny is intimately a function of our free will choices. In other words when God Creates He knows your choices before hand and had already knit that into YOUR destiny, So we all FULLY OWN our own destiny and are responsible for it. God predestines NO ONE to hell. If one wants to be saved one must only choose to be saved and then by definition one will be an “elect” if one holds to that conviction and finishes in grace. Its ALL a function of OUR will and no one else’s. God is just there to give us all the grace sufficient for our salvation - whether we CHOOSE to use it or not.

James
I would also add that the 15th promise Mary gave to those who recite the rosary was “Devotion of my rosary is a great sign of predestination”. I think this compliments what you just said.
 
Howie,I must agree with the things you say. I was a catholic for 43 years and did not have Christ in my heart, only my head. When I turned to Christ and accepted Him as my personal savior, He changed my life and now I know He lives within me. I only follow the Bible as this is what we will be judged by in the end. PTL, Ralph
Which Bible are you following? There are many different versions. How do you know that you have the correct one?
I came here to let Catholics know that they are to be judged by the Word of God (the bible), not by the teachings of man. I have no doubts whatsoever. Ralph
When I die, I’ll have to face a book? And this book will open up and deliver my judgement? Jesus was the Word Incarnate, and Jesus will judge us, not the Bible.
I only quote from scripture, it is not my word, it is the word of God, which has existed for 2000 yrs. Ralph
Again, how are you assured that you don’t have a deficient Bible?
The Church has no denomination,it never had and never will have: they are the called out ones of God. Those who come to Christ and receive Him as their personal Savior, they belong to the body of Christ. Ralph
I haven’t found the words “personal Savior” in the Bible. And as stated above, the Catholic Church was referred as such in the 1st Century.
I cannot believe that anyone would believe that christ would build His church on a human being and a sinner at that, namely Peter. Christ is building His church on Himself , the Solid Rock. Peter is dead, Christ is still alive and interceding for us at the right hand of God. PTL, Ralph.
Well, Christ explicitly told Peter that he was the rock upon which he would build his Church. I guess you believe Scripture or you don’t.
Eternity is a bet only to those who attempt to get to into heaven on some combination of grace and works, and it’s a losing bet at that.
Then come back into the Catholic Church before it’s too late! You can’t earn Heaven, but you sure can earn Hell!
James, the only sure truth is God’s truth, and the only true and sure repository of God’s truth is in the Scripture. ISTM the reason you fight against SS is, many of the beliefs you hold dear can’t be substantiated by Scripture. :nope:
Well, you’re half right. God’s truth is the only sure truth. But the Church is the Pillar of Truth - it even says so in the Bible.
Look James, the truth of the matter is that appointed leaders of the churches are not referred to as apostles. And it’s not an issue that Church developed apostolic terminology concerning her leadership, and that she created the office of Pope and it’s accompanying charisms, including infallibility; the issue is, was she right in doing so?
Yes. Jesus promised that his Church would prevail, and that he would send the Holy Spirit to guide it in the Truth.
No, does historical lineage?
Yes, when operating under the protection and assurance of Jesus.

Seems to me that a bunch of you are pretty selective in which of Jesus’s teachings and promises you choose to believe. Thank God for giving us his Church. It’s not Jesus or the Church - that’s a false dichotomy. It’s Jesus AND his Church. He gives us his Church as a powerful, powerful means to salvation. He dispenses grace through the Church and it’s Sacraments. He protects the Church from error. He gives us great Doctors of the Church to better understand some of the mysteries of his relationship with us. He does all these things for us, and infinitely more.

Who are we to question (or worse yet, reject) how he chooses to work here on earth in our day and age?
 
The Church has no denomination,it never had and never will have: they are the called out ones of God. Those who come to Christ and receive Him as their personal Savior, they belong to the body of Christ. Ralph
Ralphy,
you never answered post 71: and it really is the nub of the matter. Please do so… Here is the body of that post>

What do you offer in terms of credentials that would suggest to any Catholic that you are right and the Church is wrong? Why would we trust our salvation to you? Because you say that you have been touched by God? Thousands make that claim, Including Charles Manson, Jim Jones and the founder of virtually every Protestant sect. What makes us believe that you, personally, have the right message from God. while they did not?

I’m dead serious about this. If you come here looking for conversions to your beliefs, you need to demonstrate your credentials. They had better be really good, because you are asking us to leave all we believe and risk our souls. Think about it. You should also think about what it was that whoever converted you away from Catholicism offered as proof that his view was the correct one. I hope it was very compelling…
 
You are of course correct Ralphy and that is why The Catholic Church does not permit internal factions. We excommunicate and anathematize and seperate those heretics from us to preserve our unity or “one” Body of Christ One Church unity. This is why Protestantism has become the Gehenna, the dumping ground, the hell of bad ideas that have been proven useless that will burn for all eternity. No one wants to be part of what has been cut off from the body of Christ since it is burned. And right now the disunity and factionalism of Protestantism is making it conspicuously obvious that its a tumble weed of bracken. Make no mistake about it - it has been severed and is dieing. You need to come into The Catholic Church before its tossed into the fire.

Sorry to be so blunt - but your salvation depends on it…

James
Exactly James. “If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers: such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.” John 15:6

This passage assumes that a person who has fallen away was already “in” Christ, that is, as a genuine branch of the vine, not a pseudo-branch or branch that was never connected to the vine. Rather, Jesus pictures a branch, once a healthy part of the vine, that subsequently withered. Once withered, it falls off the vine and is thrown into the fire.
 
Ralphy,
you never answered post 71: and it really is the nub of the matter. Please do so… Here is the body of that post>

What do you offer in terms of credentials that would suggest to any Catholic that you are right and the Church is wrong? Why would we trust our salvation to you? Because you say that you have been touched by God? Thousands make that claim, Including Charles Manson, Jim Jones and the founder of virtually every Protestant sect. What makes us believe that you, personally, have the right message from God. while they did not?

I’m dead serious about this. If you come here looking for conversions to your beliefs, you need to demonstrate your credentials. They had better be really good, because you are asking us to leave all we believe and risk our souls. Think about it. You should also think about what it was that whoever converted you away from Catholicism offered as proof that his view was the correct one. I hope it was very compelling…
As all properly catechized Catholics know a salvation which is secured by believing that we are saved, and a Bible interpreted to suit its reader, has lead non-Catholic Christians to regard even Protestant churches as irrelevant to salvation, although they continue to be gathering places for hearing the Word, Sunday school classes, Bible study, and the all important fellowship.
 
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CentralFLJames:
…You need to come into The Catholic Church before its tossed into the fire.
:eek: Why would Ralphy want to do that?

Funny how truth finds it way into your statements, eh James? 😃
Rather, how funny it is that hypocrisy always self-orbits its own gravity to conjure a halo that to most everyone else looks more like a dog whirling about snapping at its own tail. I know from my own frequent peccadilloes that easy opportunities for cheap shots are a compelling target but YOU were the one barking only a few yards back about being contextually dishonest Howie.

But now that you have recast the context let me say that Ralphy’s concerns about being judged by the bible do no justice to what is actually written in it. Thank goodness we Catholics are all placing our trust in God’s Mercy and in Jesus’ burning Love and Zeal for His Church and Bride.

John 12:47 "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it."

“The fire will test the quality of each man’s WORK” (1 Cor 3:13) “For Our God is a Consuming Fire (Heb 12:29)”. But neither fire from heaven nor the deadly plagues of heresy nor the human strength of a Samson shall be able to pull down the temple within if it is built of that same divine flesh of living stone given from Christ’s Church; a living stone of law and mercy received as a faith-gift from “…God’s household; which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Tim 3:15).

The trial we all must ultimately face is the final test of being able to confidently approach to embrace our Creator’s burning Love without being consumed by it or by fleeing it due to intense feelings of shame and utter unworthiness. None can dare to kiss God on the cheek except by Christ’s Mercy; and many will be too proud to plead for it and will instead cast themselves into hell to hide their shame.

James
 
Rather, how funny it is that hypocrisy always self-orbits its own gravity to conjure a halo that to most everyone else looks more like a dog whirling about snapping at its own tail. I know from my own frequent peccadilloes that easy opportunities for cheap shots are a compelling target but YOU were the one barking only a few yards back about being contextually dishonest Howie.

But now that you have recast the context let me say that Ralphy’s concerns about being judged by the bible do no justice to what is actually written in it. Thank goodness we Catholics are all placing our trust in God’s Mercy and in Jesus’ burning Love and Zeal for His Church and Bride.

John 12:47 "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it."

“The fire will test the quality of each man’s WORK” (1 Cor 3:13) “For Our God is a Consuming Fire (Heb 12:29)”. But neither fire from heaven nor the deadly plagues of heresy nor the human strength of a Samson shall be able to pull down the temple within if it is built of that same divine flesh of living stone given from Christ’s Church; a living stone of law and mercy received as a faith-gift from “…God’s household; which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Tim 3:15).

The trial we all must ultimately face is the final test of being able to confidently approach to embrace our Creator’s burning Love without being consumed by it or by fleeing it due to intense feelings of shame and utter unworthiness. None can dare to kiss God on the cheek except by Christ’s Mercy; and many will be too proud to plead for it and will instead cast themselves into hell to hide their shame.

James
Both you and I know, James, that many Protestants take at least some of the Commandments seriously, some very much so. These souls are stranded somewhere in a spiritual no-man’s land between Luther’s basic dogma that the most heinous of sins will not endanger their salvation, and their own standards of decency. The individual who is not going to just give in to it is going to have to do battle with temptation. But he lives in a city without a doctor or a hospital, and when he falls into serious sin, there is no system in place to get him back on his feet, spiritually. And so Protestantism cannot recover its wounded.

The hidden oral tradition of Protestantism requires that redemption and salvation be identical, that His death exclude any possibility of eternal punishment for those who “accept Jesus” as their “personal Savior.” If we were only redeemed by His death and must “work out [our] salvation” (Phil 2:12), Luther was wrong, and we cannot be saved by “believing” that we are. Therefore, the distinction between redemption and salvation, once recognized universally before the Protestant Reformation, is eliminated, and the two are telescoped together, to validate the false dogmas concocted by the Reformer.
 
As all properly catechized Catholics know a salvation which is secured by believing that we are saved, and a Bible interpreted to suit its reader, has lead non-Catholic Christians to regard even Protestant churches as irrelevant to salvation, although they continue to be gathering places for hearing the Word, Sunday school classes, Bible study, and the all important fellowship.
continuing

Why the all important fellowship we may ask? The severance from and repudiation of the Church, tantamount to throwing the divine plan for our spiritual and social needs back in the face of Christ, breeds terrifying, subterranean loneliness which characterizes the world of the non-Catholic Christian. He inhabits a desolate terrain, resembling the site of some colossal explosion. Each soul is isolated from every other. Each believer holds a set of beliefs differing in particulars from every other set of beliefs held by every other believer even in the same sect, and often differing even from that which he believed only yesterday. Held, in the main, only by strong social ties, but dissatisfied inside, he may go to this denomination this week, and to that next week, or perhaps nowhere, until maybe next year, when he hears of some new doctrine, some new preacher. He is unable to conceive of the unchanging nature of Catholicism, because it is outside his experience. He can never feel that he is part of something larger than himself, because inexorable Protestant imperatives ensure that there is nothing larger than himself.

He accepts many divinely revealed truths, but those tenets which identify him as a Protestant are the denials of Revelation originating with the Protestant Reformation. His most cherished beliefs are disguised as negatives: “faith alone” is a denial of everything else; “I am saved,” its formal expression. He establishes contact with his fellow believers not through subscribing to a creed of apostolic origin, or joining them in a worship service prescribed by Christ, in use by the apostles before the Bible was written. He joins them through the recitation of the negatives of his oral tradition - the list of what he does not believe - and the reiteration of Luther’s “I am saved.”

The unremitting repetition possibly offsets a deep, probably unconscious malaise, proceeding from an unrecognized apprehension that the Catholic Church is the Church, after all, and the consequent need for an excuse. The gnawing uneasiness manifests itself by a continual, seemingly daily, apparently compulsive justification of his inability to accept the Church. The explanation of why he is not a Catholic is preferably made to a Catholic, who has not asked, nor even wondered. It must be put forward, nevertheless, if only to another Protestant

It is a phenomenon which has no Catholic parallel. There is the frequent cataloguing of the myths furnished by his tradition: The Church forbade the reading of the Bible, the Church was founded by the Emperor Constantine, transubstantiation was never heard of before 1215 A.D., and so forth. He may be attacking Catholic beliefs, and maligning the Church, but he is the one who needs to hear, and hear continually, that the Catholic Church is not, and cannot be, the Church established by Christ.

The non-Catholic Christian who can detach a Catholic from the Church is vindicated in his own rejection of the truth. Driven by the need to prove that he has been right all along, he is alert to any and every opportunity to enlighten Catholics. He may be surrounded by people who are divorced and remarried, procurring abortions, tubal ligations and vasecomies, watching pornographic movies, telling and enjoying filthy jokes, and committing adultery at every opportunity. It is the Catholic he will “witness to” and attempt to “save.”
 
A most illuminating and revealing description of the consequences of severance from The Church, Tomster. Indeed, their plight does seem like a marriage of sincerity and futility. I especially connected with the insight regarding the proclamation of “negatives”. “We only need…” “We do not need…” How very true this is.

Well done.
 
You are of course correct Ralphy and that is why The Catholic Church does not permit internal factions. We excommunicate and anathematize and seperate those heretics from us to preserve our unity or “one” Body of Christ One Church unity. This is why Protestantism has become the Gehenna, the dumping ground, the hell of bad ideas that have been proven useless that will burn for all eternity. No one wants to be part of what has been cut off from the body of Christ since it is burned. And right now the disunity and factionalism of Protestantism is making it conspicuously obvious that its a tumble weed of bracken. Make no mistake about it - it has been severed and is dieing.

You need to come into The Catholic Church before its tossed into the fire.
Sorry to be so blunt - but your salvation depends on it…

James
James
You might want to check your facts, The Catholic church is losing members and Evangelical churches are growing.

P.S. The last bolded area is exactly why I’m not a member of the Roman Catholic Church, but rather Christ’s Church.
 
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