Ralphy's Questions for Catholics

[Christian7801]

You’re confused alright…

Let me suggest this.

Here is a link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church and I defy you to read it (including and especially the footnotes) and then maintain the doctrinal positions that you do right now and the position that the Catholic Church is somehow contradicting scripture or otherwise in error. You’ll probably want to obtain your own hard copy to do this effectively so I suggest that you get one.

Catechism of the Catholic Church, Pocket Edition

Feel free to bring any such parts of this to our attention here at CAF (in separate threads of course!) and we’ll be happy to objectively walk that through for you. This will cover the Sacred Tradition quite well.

So…you want answers? There ya go. Now you be honest and do your part. You’re in for the Bible study of your life.

Thanks

 

[Church_Militant]

The example given was the Bible; this is not an example nor an answer to the question; we are speaking of Apostolic oral traditions…does the Bible fit that?

In fact it does since every last bit of the New Testament oral tradition before it was ever penned by the few apostles (5 actually and 6 if you count Paul) who wrote any of it.

Two of the four Gospels were not written by apostles at all, but by the disciples Mark and Luke, so here again we have oral tradition handed down in writing and (in this case) accepted as inspired canon by the early Catholic Church

How can a group speak of Apostolic traditions, which Paul spoke of and not be able to produce a genuine example and than be called disingenuous?

My friend did not say that we were unable to produce what you asked for, (and as I have just shown, I did indeed make a valid point) but that your denial of it and contention makes it appear that you were being disingenuous.

Sometimes people do not know the answer and can just say “I don’t know”. This is why I have said it must be secret and hidden since no one seems to be able to give an example(s). IMO

I never said I don’t know because, as I have now twice shown you, I do indeed know what I’m talking about. You just argued against it. You were wrong however.

 

[Church_Militant]

Thanks

You’re quite welcome.
We’re here every day.

 

[Christian7801]

In fact it does since every last bit of the New Testament oral tradition before it was ever penned by the few apostles (5 actually and 6 if you count Paul) who wrote any of it.

Two of the four Gospels were not written by apostles at all, but by the disciples Mark and Luke, so here again we have oral tradition handed down in writing and (in this case) accepted as inspired canon by the early Catholic ChurchMy friend did not say that we were unable to produce what you asked for, (and as I have just shown, I did indeed make a valid point) but that your denial of it and contention makes it appear that you were being disingenuous.I never said I don’t know because, as I have now twice shown you, I do indeed know what I’m talking about. You just argued against it. You were wrong however.

So you are telling me that the Apostolic oral teachings referred to in Scripture is the Bible? I thought the topic is oral tradition “outside” of the Bible; never mind no one can answer this question. Sorry I asked the question and I would like to retract the question because I have gotten nothing but insults and grief for asking.

 

[ralphy]

What are these specific traditions?

#1 catholic statement:Justification is a transformation of the soul in which original sin is removed and sanctifying grace infused, God says:Romans3:21to4:8.#2 Cath.statement:Initial justification is by means of baptism, God says Justification is by faith alone Rom3:28 #3 Cath statement:Adults must prepare for justification through faith and good works. God says:God justifies ungodly sinners who believeRom4:5,Good works are the result of salvation,not the cause Eph28-10.#4 cath. statement:The justified are in themselves beautiful and holy in God’s sight. God says the justified are in Christ holy and blamless befor God Eph1:1-14. #5Cath.statement: Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works. God says:Justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God 2Cor 5:21.In Christ the believer has been made complete Col 2-10.#6 Cath.statement: Justification is lost through mortal sin.God says: Justification cannot be lost. Those whom God justifies will be saved from the wrath of God Rom5:8,9.#7 Cath. statement:Catholics guilty of mortal sin are justified again through the sacrament of penance. God says:There is no second justification. Those whom God justifies,He also glorifies Rom8:30 #8 Cath.statement:Salvation from the eternal consequences of sin is a life long process. God says: salvation from teh eternal consequences of sin is an instantaneous and secure act of God coicciding with justification Rom5:9 #9 Cath. statement Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith,good works, and participating in the sacraments. God says: Salvation is attained by grace through faith apart from works Eph2:8-9. Good works are the result,not the cause of salvation eph 2:10 #10 Cath. statement: Faith is belief in God and the firm acceptance of all that the Church proposes for belief. God says: Saving faith is the entrusting of oneself to Christ as Lord and savior Rom 10:8-17. #11 Cath. statement: Sanctifying grace is a quality of the soul, a supernatural disposition that perfects the soul. God says: Grace is the underserved favor of God Eph 1:7,8. I have many more Roman Catholic church statements that the church has injected in which Gods word does not agree with. Maybe I will send some later. Ralph

 

[Church_Militant]

So you are telling me that the Apostolic oral teachings referred to in Scripture is the Bible?

Not at all. I’m telling you that at least 2 of the Gospels are specifically the result of non apostolic authors writing what they were handed down orally, which proves that the New Testament was oral tradition before it was ever like we have it today.

I thought the topic is oral tradition “outside” of the Bible; never mind no one can answer this question. Sorry I asked the question and I would like to retract the question because I have gotten nothing but insults and grief for asking.

Here again, I will have to disagree. You have not been insulted and if you had it should have been reported because that would violate the rules we function under here at CAF.

There is plenty of Sacred Tradition available to you and I have given you those sources.

What part of it are you not understanding?

 

[Church_Militant]

#1 catholic statement:Justification is a transformation of the soul in which original sin is removed and sanctifying grace infused, God says:Romans3:21to4:8.#2 Cath.statement:Initial justification is by means of baptism, God says Justification is by faith alone Rom3:28 #3 Cath statement:Adults must prepare for justification through faith and good works. God says:God justifies ungodly sinners who believeRom4:5,Good works are the result of salvation,not the cause Eph28-10.#4 cath. statement:The justified are in themselves beautiful and holy in God’s sight. God says the justified are in Christ holy and blamless befor God Eph1:1-14. #5Cath.statement: Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works. God says:Justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God 2Cor 5:21.In Christ the believer has been made complete Col 2-10.#6 Cath.statement: Justification is lost through mortal sin.God says: Justification cannot be lost. Those whom God justifies will be saved from the wrath of God Rom5:8,9.#7 Cath. statement:Catholics guilty of mortal sin are justified again through the sacrament of penance. God says:There is no second justification. Those whom God justifies,He also glorifies Rom8:30 #8 Cath.statement:Salvation from the eternal consequences of sin is a life long process. God says: salvation from teh eternal consequences of sin is an instantaneous and secure act of God coicciding with justification Rom5:9 #9 Cath. statement Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith,good works, and participating in the sacraments. God says: Salvation is attained by grace through faith apart from works Eph2:8-9. Good works are the result,not the cause of salvation eph 2:10 #10 Cath. statement: Faith is belief in God and the firm acceptance of all that the Church proposes for belief. God says: Saving faith is the entrusting of oneself to Christ as Lord and savior Rom 10:8-17. #11 Cath. statement: Sanctifying grace is a quality of the soul, a supernatural disposition that perfects the soul. God says: Grace is the underserved favor of God Eph 1:7,8. I have many more Roman Catholic church statements that the church has injected in which Gods word does not agree with. Maybe I will send some later. Ralph

I can’t wait for this one.

This is a Swiss cheese collection that can be easily refuted.

Mainly because these are not traditions but scripturally based doctrines.

Still, I’m sure that you wish they were all true, but wishful thinking is not objective fact no matter how badly you might wish.

 

[jmcrae]

So you are telling me that the Apostolic oral teachings referred to in Scripture is the Bible?

It is an oral tradition, that the books and writings contained in the Bible are “holy writings” aka Scripture. There is nothing in writing that indicates this idea. Someone coming from Mars and finding a Bible would find no written indication anywhere that there is any significant difference between the Bible, and any other collected set of ancient writings.

It was Pope Innocent who gathered the 46 books of the Old Testament and the 27 books of the New Testament together in 405 AD and made an Infallible Declaration that these books, and no others, comprise the Bible. Prior to that, even though the individual books themselves certainly existed, we had no “Bible” as such - no definitive collection of books all translated into one common language, and all placed together into one set of covers, which we today call the Bible.

I thought the topic is oral tradition “outside” of the Bible; never mind no one can answer this question. Sorry I asked the question and I would like to retract the question because I have gotten nothing but insults and grief for asking.

The idea that there is such a thing as the Bible is, in fact, an oral tradition that comes to us from outside of the Bible.

The same Papal Authority and oral tradition that gives us the Bible also gives us the rest of the teachings of the Catholic Church. One is forced either to agree with all of them, or disagree with all of them, because they all come from the same source. If you choose to believe that there is such a thing as the Bible, then you also have to believe that Mary is ever-virgin, for example, because the same Papacy that declared the existence of the Bible, also declared the virginity of Mary. So, either the Papacy has the authority to make these kinds of declarations, or it does not.

But you can’t say that it has authority in the one instance, and then say that it has no authority, in the other instance - unless you have some other way of knowing what constitutes the Bible - but as far as I know, there is none.

 

[Church_Militant]

It is an oral tradition, that the books and writings contained in the Bible are “holy writings” aka Scripture. There is nothing in writing that indicates this idea. Someone coming from Mars and finding a Bible would find no written indication anywhere that there is any significant difference between the Bible, and any other collected set of ancient writings.

It was Pope Innocent who gathered the 46 books of the Old Testament and the 27 books of the New Testament together in 405 AD and made an Infallible Declaration that these books, and no others, comprise the Bible. Prior to that, even though the individual books themselves certainly existed, we had no “Bible” as such - no definitive collection of books all translated into one common language, and all placed together into one set of covers, which we today call the Bible.

The idea that there is such a thing as the Bible is, in fact, an oral tradition that comes to us from outside of the Bible.

The same Papal Authority and oral tradition that gives us the Bible also gives us the rest of the teachings of the Catholic Church. One is forced either to agree with all of them, or disagree with all of them, because they all come from the same source. If you choose to believe that there is such a thing as the Bible, then you also have to believe that Mary is ever-virgin, for example, because the same Papacy that declared the existence of the Bible, also declared the virginity of Mary. So, either the Papacy has the authority to make these kinds of declarations, or it does not.

But you can’t say that it has authority in the one instance, and then say that it has no authority, in the other instance - unless you have some other way of knowing what constitutes the Bible - but as far as I know, there is none.

 

[paul_c]

Ralph, I am going to help you format your note so that it can be addressed more easily. I am pleased that you know the catholic positions. That’s good. But the fact is, your statement about what God says is simply your own personal interpretation of individual lines of scripture based on your own tradition. When I have a few minutes I will come back and show you the scriptural support for the catholic position (unless someone gets to it first).I will also try to explain what the catholic interpretation of your scriptural support says.

#1 catholic statement:Justification is a transformation of the soul in which original sin is removed and sanctifying grace infused, God says:Romans3:21to4:8.

#2 Cath.statement:Initial justification is by means of baptism, God says Justification is by faith alone Rom3:28

#3 Cath statement:Adults must prepare for justification through faith and good works. God says:God justifies ungodly sinners who believeRom4:5,Good works are the result of salvation,not the cause Eph28-10.

#4 cath. statement:The justified are in themselves beautiful and holy in God’s sight. God says the justified are in Christ holy and blamless befor God Eph1:1-14.

#5Cath.statement: Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works. God says:Justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God 2Cor 5:21.In Christ the believer has been made complete Col 2-10.

#6 Cath.statement: Justification is lost through mortal sin.God says: Justification cannot be lost. Those whom God justifies will be saved from the wrath of God Rom5:8,9.

#7 Cath. statement:Catholics guilty of mortal sin are justified again through the sacrament of penance. God says:There is no second justification. Those whom God justifies,He also glorifies Rom8:30

#8 Cath.statement:Salvation from the eternal consequences of sin is a life long process. God says: salvation from teh eternal consequences of sin is an instantaneous and secure act of God coicciding with justification Rom5:9

#9 Cath. statement Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith,good works, and participating in the sacraments. God says: Salvation is attained by grace through faith apart from works Eph2:8-9. Good works are the result,not the cause of salvation eph 2:10

#10 Cath. statement: Faith is belief in God and the firm acceptance of all that the Church proposes for belief. God says: Saving faith is the entrusting of oneself to Christ as Lord and savior Rom 10:8-17.

#11 Cath. statement: Sanctifying grace is a quality of the soul, a supernatural disposition that perfects the soul. God says: Grace is the underserved favor of God Eph 1:7,8. I have many more Roman Catholic church statements that the church has injected in which Gods word does not agree with. Maybe I will send some later. Ralph

 

[SteveGC]

I second that

 

[fbl9]

#6 Cath.statement: Justification is lost through mortal sin.God says: Justification cannot be lost. Those whom God justifies will be saved from the wrath of God Rom5:8,9.​

#7 Cath. statement:Catholics guilty of mortal sin are justified again through the sacrament of penance. God says:There is no second justification. Those whom God justifies,He also glorifies Rom8:30
#8 Cath.statement:Salvation from the eternal consequences of sin is a life long process. God says: salvation from teh eternal consequences of sin is an instantaneous and secure act of God coicciding with justification Rom5:9
#11 Cath. statement: Sanctifying grace is a quality of the soul, a supernatural disposition that perfects the soul. God says: Grace is the underserved favor of God Eph 1:7,8. I have many more Roman Catholic church statements that the church has injected in which Gods word does not agree with. Maybe I will send some later. Ralph

#6 so one is free to sin willy nilly?no we are not for what happens when one contiunes in sin it leads to death…and being dead is opposite to being alive.
#7 then if you ralph sin you can not ever be forgiven (sounds a lot like the Cathars)
#8recheck your source for your claim ralph there is no connection with this verse and your opinion.
#11 there is no disagreement in this what so ever.

 

[Tomster]

Hi Tomster,

I believe you misunderstand what some churches teach, the basis of “Bible alone” does not negate traditions that are in harmony with the teaching of Scripture, but rejects traditions that are not in harmony with Scripture. The Bible is used as the measuring stick to which all things in the practice of Christian faith are measured against.

Who has the authority to do the rejecting?

 

[Tomster]

What are these extra biblical traditions you and others speak of?

Either you are a Bible alone believer or Bible and tradition believer or Bible, Tradition and Magisterial believer. Does that help you out?

 

[Christian7801]

Not at all. I’m telling you that at least 2 of the Gospels are specifically the result of non apostolic authors writing what they were handed down orally, which proves that the New Testament was oral tradition before it was ever like we have it today.Here again, I will have to disagree. You have not been insulted and if you had it should have been reported because that would violate the rules we function under here at CAF.

There is plenty of Sacred Tradition available to you and I have given you those sources.

What part of it are you not understanding?

“Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.” (1Co 11:2)

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word {of mouth} or by letter from us. (2Th 2:15)

Thanks everyone for trying to answer; claiming you gave an answer and actually answering the question appear to be two different things IMO. Sending a link to the entire catechism is no way to answer either IMO. It would be more credible to just say “I don’t know” or “I will get back to you” What are these if it is not what we know as the Bible; less the Apocrypha? I think the question has been answered by the lack of appropriate answers. Thanks again for trying anyway.

 

[Christian7801]

Who has the authority to do the rejecting?

A mature Christian who is able to discern the word of God.

 

[Saint_Sinner]

Hi Ralphy,
Glad to see you’re still around. I’d love to continue our discussion found here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4984355#post4984355
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4984703#post4984703
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4989737#post4989737

Thanks

 

[Saint_Sinner]

A mature Christian who is able to discern the word of God.

Where is that in the Bible? I’d love to see the reference as well as your interpretation of what it means. Thanks

 

[paul_c]

Originally Posted by ralphy;4994335

#1 catholic statement:Justification is a transformation of the soul in which original sin is removed and sanctifying grace infused, God says:Romans3:21to4:8.

How does Romans disagree with The Catholic view that we are justified by grace through faith by means of Baptism?

#2 Cath.statement:Initial justification is by means of baptism, God says Justification is by faith alone Rom3:28

Again, this is consistent with the Catholic view. Justifcation is by grace through faith by means of baptism

#3 Cath statement:Adults must prepare for justification through faith and good works. God says:God justifies ungodly sinners who believeRom4:5,Good works are the result of salvation,not the cause Eph28-10.

this is ephesians2;8-10" For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast. For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them. It doesn’t say that works are the result of salvation. It says that we are justified by grace through faith, just as I described above. and it says we were made for good works. doing those good works means we cooperate with God in his plan for us.

#4 cath. statement:The justified are in themselves beautiful and holy in God’s sight. God says the justified are in Christ holy and blamless befor God Eph1:1-14

. I don’t understand the difference here.

#5Cath.statement: Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works. God says:Justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God 2Cor 5:21.In Christ the believer has been made complete Col 2-10.

No the Catholic position is that jtustification happens with baptism as a result of faith. this puts us in the state of Grace. There is no disagreemetn with Corinthians or collosions on this point. Once we are in the state of Grace by Baptism we must stay there through the sacremant and good works.

#6 Cath.statement: Justification is lost through mortal sin.God says: Justification cannot be lost. Those whom God justifies will be saved from the wrath of God Rom5:8,9.

this is Roman’s 5: 8-9: But God proves his love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us. How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath. It doesn’t say that you can’t lose your salvatiion. In fact, Romans 2: 5-8 says" By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. So if you don’t continue to do good works, you will lose your salvation

#7 Cath. statement:Catholics guilty of mortal sin are justified again through the sacrament of penance. God says:There is no second justification. Those whom God justifies,He also glorifies Rom8:30

Jesus forgave sins through out the Gospel, did he not. and Don’t you remember him giving Peter and the Apostles the right to forgive sins?

#8 Cath.statement:Salvation from the eternal consequences of sin is a life long process. God says: salvation from teh eternal consequences of sin is an instantaneous and secure act of God coicciding with justification Rom5:9

You are justified during baptism. But you must stay in the state of grace for the reasons discussed above. Romans 5:9 does not negate this.

#9 Cath. statement Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith,good works, and participating in the sacraments. God says: Salvation is attained by grace through faith apart from works Eph2:8-9. Good works are the result,not the cause of salvation eph 2:10

As discussed above, you are justified initially by faith, but you mst demonstrate that faith with works to stay in the state of Grace.

#10 Cath. statement: Faith is belief in God and the firm acceptance of all that the Church proposes for belief. God says: Saving faith is the entrusting of oneself to Christ as Lord and savior Rom 10:8-17.

The Church helps us to find Christ and says nothing contrary to Romans. It protects us against misinterpretation.

#11 Cath. statement: Sanctifying grace is a quality of the soul, a supernatural disposition that perfects the soul. God says: Grace is the underserved favor of God Eph 1:7,8. I have many more Roman Catholic church statements that the church has injected in which Gods word does not agree with. Maybe I will send some later. Ralph

there is no disgreement that Grace is the undeservered favor of God.

 

[Church_Militant]

A mature Christian who is able to discern the word of God.

Can you show us a scripture that says specifically that? I don’t think so.

You’ve been answered. You just don’t like what you’ve heard.

You asked where the traditions could be found and where interpretations of given passages could be found and I showed you.

Catholics don’t function like the majority of n-Cs do with minimal “statements of faith” or whatever they are called where they give their list of doctrines and supposed scriptural support for them. We actually have serious teaching documents like the catechism that actually require a person to bring a brain and a Bible and to actually study.

You make statements and act as if no one has answered you when in fact we have given you thorough answers and you have not been willing to make the effort to do your part and then exit with some remarks that we could not do so.

Be honest. If you want the facts then you read what we have offered and research the sources that we give you with an open mind and objective search for truth wherever it leads. If not, then all you have done is allow us to make our case, refute yours, and every honest lurker reading the thread benefits from it.

People like you are one of the reasons that Catholic Answers exists.