Ralphy's Questions for Catholics

[jmcrae]

A mature Christian who is able to discern the word of God.

It is to be hoped that this person is not self-appointed. I know lots of people who think they are “mature Christians” who are in their second and third marriages, and can’t seem to hold down a job.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Ralphy, please see the following Catholic Apologetic comments I have made that show you are putting words into God’s mouth that He never said and you are trying to present yourself as infallible which is not a very productive thing do. Catholic apostolic teaching confirms that your personal interpretation is wrong. If you won’t believe me why won’t you believe God’s Word? Read what I reference…

• #1 Catholic statement: Justification is a transformation of the soul in which original sin is removed and sanctifying grace infused
  Ralphy claims God’s Word refutes this in: Romans 3:21to4:8.

Catholic Apologetic Rebuttal: Original Sin is real. Catholics believe that initial Justification is through baptism and that sanctification is an on going life long process completed and crowed in heaven. The passage you cite refer to the importance of faith and Catholics agree. But it is through the Church that initial gift of faith is received and that is conveyed in baptism otherwise your interpretation would make baptism a mere symbolic act. But this all contradicts dozens of scriptures: Original Sin: Gen. 2:17, Gen. 3:14-19, Job 14:1,4, Psalm 51:5, Rom. 5:12, Rom. 5:14, Rom. 5:16, Rom. 5:19, 1 Cor. 15:21, Eph. 2:1-3 ||Necessity for baptism: John 1:32, John 3:3, John 3:22, John 4:1, Acts 8:36, Acts 10:47, Acts 22:16, Titus 3:5-6, Heb. 10:22, 2 Kings 5:14, Isaiah 44:3, Ezek. 36:25-27 || Baptism is not symbolic: Matt. 28:19, Acts 2:38, Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, John 3:3,5, Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47, Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5, Acts 9:18, Acts 22:16, Acts 22:16, Rom. 6:4, 1 Cor. 6:11, Gal. 3:27, Col. 2:12, Titus 3:5-7, Heb. 10:22, 1 Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16, Luke 23:43, Matt. 20:22-23; Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50, Mark 10:38, 1 John 5:6

• #2 Catholic.statement: Initial justification is by means of baptism
  Ralphy claims God’s Word refutes this and God says Justification is by faith alone Rom3:28

Catholic Apologetic Rebuttal: See #1

• #3 Catholic statement: Adults must prepare for justification through faith and good works.
  Ralphy claims God’s Word refutes this :God justifies ungodly sinners who believe Rom4:5,Good works are the result of salvation, not the cause Eph28-10.

Catholic Apologetic Rebuttal: This is not an accurate understanding of Catholic belief. Infant baptism which extends the pledge of a parent’s/guardian faith to raise the child Christian is sufficient for initial justification. Works of love (acts of faith and charity) are a result of God’s grace at work within the justified Christian which without works one has a dead faith.

• #4 Catholic. statement: The justified are in themselves beautiful and holy in God’s sight.
  Ralphy claims God’s Word refutes this and God says: the justified are in Christ holy and blameless before God Eph1:1-14.

Catholic Apologetic Rebuttal: You doubt the power of God to radically transform a sinner’s nature into a new Christ-like being. God is authentic and could never accept into heaven a person with a sinful nature that is “covered over” as if by snow (Luther’s “snow covered dunghill" analogy of imputed grace). A covered over sin would not escape God’s eyes and it would still “stink” of sin so to speak since it is unchanged in nature. Nothing (name removed by moderator)ure in the least may enter heaven - not even a desire for past sin. Catholics know that God really supernaturally infuses into our being an authentic inner sanctification and justification that is “ours”. He literally gives us a NEW hear and our completely and utterly CLEANSED of our sins. We are made literally Christ-Like through the redemptive power of Christ.

Psalm 51:1, Psalm 51:7-9, Psalm 51:10, Isaiah 1:18, Isaiah 43:25, Isaiah 44:22, Isaiah 64:5, Ezek. 36:26-27, Ezek. 37:23, Matt. 5:3,5,8, Matt. 5:6; Luke 6:21, Matt. 5:20; Luke 1:6; Acts 10:35, Matt. 5:28, Matt. 6:1, Matt. 8:3, Matt. 15:18; Mark 7:15, Matt. 23:25-28, Luke 11:39-40, John 1:29, Acts 3:19, Acts 22:16; 1 Cor. 6:11, Rom. 4:3, Rom. 5:17, Rom. 5:19, 2 Cor. 3:18, 2 Cor. 4:16, 2 Cor. 5:17, 2 Cor. 7:1, 2 Cor. 13:5, Gal. 6:15, Eph. 4:22-24, Phil. 2:13, Col. 3:10, Titus 3:5, 1 John 1:7,9, 1 John 3:7,10, Rev. 19:8, 2 Peter 1:4, 1 Cor. 3:9

[continued]

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

[continued from above]

• #5 Catholic.statement: Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works.
  Ralphy claims God’s Word refutes this and God says: Justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God 2Cor 5:21. In Christ the believer has been made complete Col 2-10.

Catholic Apologetic Rebuttal: It would take a volume of discussion to convey and discuss the number of scriptures that support sacraments. Justification can be lost and there is also a notion of ongoing sanctification where man may actually progress in grace and be given more as reward for proving oneself worthy of the spiritual gifts one has originally received in baptism. Here are some scriptures you can look up to see where sacraments are given in scripture:

Sacrament of Confession/Penance: John 20:21-23, Matt. 9:8, Matt. 9:6; Mark 2:10, Luke 5:24, Matt. 18:18, John 20:22-23, 2 Cor. 2:10, 2 Cor. 5:18, James 5:15-16, 1 Tim. 2:5, Lev. 5:4-6; 19:21-22; necessity for: James 5:16, Acts 19:18, Matt. 3:6; Mark 1:5, 1 Tim. 6:12, 1 John 1:9, Num. 5:7, 2 Sam. 12:14. Neh. 9:2-3, Sir. 4:26, Baruch 1:14, 1 John 5:16-17; Luke 12:47-48, Matt. 5:19

Eucharist: Matt. 26:26-28; Mark. 14:22,24; Luke 22;19-20; 1 Cor. 11:24-25, Matt. 26:26; Mark. 14:22; Luke 22:19-20 , 1 Cor. 11:24, Matt. 26:26; Mark. 14:22; Luke 22:19, Matt. 26:28; Mark. 14:24; Luke 22:20, Exodus 24:8, 1 Cor. 10:16, 1 Cor. 10:18, 1 Cor. 11:23, 1 Cor. 11:27-29, 1 Cor. 11:30, 1 Cor. 11:27-30, Acts 2:42, Acts 20:28, Matt. 6:11; Luke 11:3, Matt. 12:39,Matt. 19:6, Luke 14:15, Luke 22:19, 1 Cor. 11:24-25, Luke 24:26-35, Luke 24:30-31,35, John 1:14, John 21:15,17, Acts 9:4-5; 22:8; 26:14-15, 1 Cor. 12:13, Heb. 10:25,29, Heb. 12:22-23, Heb. 12:24, 2 Pet. 1:4, Rev. 2:7; 22:14.

Holy Orders:
“Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands." (2 Timothy 1:6).
Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit." (Acts 8:17).
See Bishop, Priest, Deacon

There are dozens more scripture for the other 4 sacraments which posting limits me to list

• #7 Catholic. statement: Catholics guilty of mortal sin are justified again through the sacrament of penance.
  Ralphy claims God’s Word refutes this & God says: There is no second justification. Those whom God justifies, He also glorifies Rom8:30

Catholic Apologetic Rebuttal: Then Christ had no reason to give the apostles the authority to forgiven sins then did he? See Matt. 18:18

• #8 Catholic statement: Salvation from the eternal consequences of sin is a life long process.
  Ralphy claims God’s Word refutes this & God says: salvation from the eternal consequences of sin is an instantaneous and secure act of God coinciding with justification Rom5:9

Catholic Apologetic Rebuttal: One must avoid sin even after being forgiven. Why would Jesus tell the adulteress caught in the act to “avoid this sin in the future” if she was perpetually saved?
OSAS is NOT scriptural. Read here: We are not guaranteed salvation and must cooperate with grace and hope for it

• #9 Catholic. statement Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith, good works, and participating in the sacraments.
  Ralphy claims God’s Word refutes this & God says: Salvation is attained by grace through faith apart from works Eph2:8-9. Good works are the result, not the cause of salvation eph 2:10

Catholic Apologetic Rebuttal: You are ignoring the other scripture verses that reject this non Christian teaching. Works are a fruit of grace and those that have no works to show are living a dead and hopeless faith and are cut off from salvation unless they learn to cooperate with grace before they die and start to bear fruit.
Good Works in Sanctifying Grace are Necessary for Salvation

• #10 Catholic. statement: Faith is belief in God and the firm acceptance of all that the Church proposes for belief.
  Ralphy claims God’s Word refutes this & God says: Saving faith is the entrusting of oneself to Christ as Lord and savior Rom 10:8-17.

Catholic Apologetic Rebuttal: “A LORD is served AND OBEYED” not just merely believed in as a Lord. The demons believe and know all too well that Jesus is Lord yet they are not saved. Why is that Ralphy? Because THEY REFUSED TO OBEY!

• #11 Catholic. statement: Sanctifying grace is a quality of the soul, a supernatural disposition that perfects the soul.
  Ralphy claims God’s Word refutes this & God says: Grace is the underserved favor of God Eph 1:7,8.

Catholic Apologetic Rebuttal: There is no contradiction to what Catholics believe. Catholics agree that sanctifying grace is definitely a gift. But we must safeguard it and not “disgrace” ourselves. It is the nature of how grace operates that you don’t understand. Grace is transformational and like a seed is “infused” so the Trinity may live in us and grow within us to radically transform us. Protestants believe that grace is “imputed” and covers a dirty container to hide sin like using white wash to hide a dirty old fence with old wood and worms.Grace radically transforms us and makes us a “new creation” a new man so to speak that is no longer any resemblance to the sinful nature we inherited through Adam and Eve bur rather formed on the new Adam and Eve of Christ and Mary - nether who ever knew sin and were both “full of grace”.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

A mature Christian who is able to discern the word of God.

I am assuming that you believe you are a mature Christian. Would you say these following people who had a large following are also mature Christians?

Jimmy Baaker & Tammy Faye,
Jim Jones
David Koresh
Jimmy Swaggart
Ted Haggard

Who decides who to believe and follow?
Does getting a mail order divinity degree from an online college qualify somone to open a church and start “saving people”? Who accredits these colleges? It’s certainly not God so it must be man.

James

 

[ralphy]

Ralph, I am going to help you format your note so that it can be addressed more easily. I am pleased that you know the catholic positions. That’s good. But the fact is, your statement about what God says is simply your own personal interpretation of individual lines of scripture based on your own tradition. When I have a few minutes I will come back and show you the scriptural support for the catholic position (unless someone gets to it first).I will also try to explain what the catholic interpretation of your scriptural support says.

Thank you very much, you did a far better job than I did. Ralph

 

[ralphy]

How does Romans disagree with The Catholic view that we are justified by grace through faith by means of Baptism?

Again, this is consistent with the Catholic view. Justifcation is by grace through faith by means of baptism

this is ephesians2;8-10" For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast. For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them. It doesn’t say that works are the result of salvation. It says that we are justified by grace through faith, just as I described above. and it says we were made for good works. doing those good works means we cooperate with God in his plan for us.

. I don’t understand the difference here.

No the Catholic position is that jtustification happens with baptism as a result of faith. this puts us in the state of Grace. There is no disagreemetn with Corinthians or collosions on this point. Once we are in the state of Grace by Baptism we must stay there through the sacremant and good works.

this is Roman’s 5: 8-9: But God proves his love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us. How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath. It doesn’t say that you can’t lose your salvatiion. In fact, Romans 2: 5-8 says" By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. So if you don’t continue to do good works, you will lose your salvation

Jesus forgave sins through out the Gospel, did he not. and Don’t you remember him giving Peter and the Apostles the right to forgive sins?

You are justified during baptism. But you must stay in the state of grace for the reasons discussed above. Romans 5:9 does not negate this.

As discussed above, you are justified initially by faith, but you mst demonstrate that faith with works to stay in the state of Grace.

The Church helps us to find Christ and says nothing contrary to Romans. It protects us against misinterpretation.

there is no disgreement that Grace is the undeservered favor of God.

Eph 2:8,9 says that we are saved through faith, not through baptism. To be saved one must accept Christ as their personal Savior, how can a small child make such a decision. Ralph

 

[SteveGC]

Eph 2:8,9 says that we are saved through faith, not through baptism. To be saved one must accept Christ as their personal Savior, how can a small child make such a decision. Ralph

So, how do you reconcile Eph 2:8,9 with 1 Pet 3:21, which clearly tells us, “baptism now SAVES you”?

I’ll tell you how Catholics reconcile it. They believe BOTH of them, and more. Salvation is not only NOT an instantaneous one-time event, but it is also a collection of many elements that God calls us to do, one of them being faith, the other baptism, and so on. How do we figure out all of them? Well, they’re in the Bible, for starters. But what’s better, simpler, and most importantly, most appropriate? It’s ALL in The Church that Christ built.

Your #10 objection, that you don’t need The Church because Rom 10:8-17 says just believe and profess Christ is NOT proof that we don’t need the Church. If you are to believe and profess Christ, ralphy, you have to believe and profess ALL, I repeat ALL that Christ teaches. So, one must move WELL BEYOND Romans 10, and any other chapter and verse to really absorb ALL of what Christ teaches. You even have to move outside of Scripture, while certainly not abandoning it, for it is Sacred and fully supportive. Fortunately, for our sake, He left men and their successors in charge of all this, and protected them with the Spirit of God. And THAT is why Church is necessary for salvation.

 

[diggerdomer]

Sorry I asked the question and I would like to retract the question because I have gotten nothing but insults and grief for asking.

I am sorry you feel this way.

I have not contributed to this thread but have been reading it. Unfortunately, I can completely understand why you express the feelings you do. I was struck at what I perceived as the harshness and lack of charity implied (at least) in some responses to what I interpreted as your sincere questions.

I would be happy to correspond via private message if that would be helpful.

Best wishes

 

[sodak]

Eph 2:8,9 says that we are saved through faith, not through baptism. To be saved one must accept Christ as their personal Savior, how can a small child make such a decision. Ralph

They can’t. That pretty much invalidates the evangelical position, as far as I’m concerned.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Ralphy: yes we may be saved THROUGH faith–that does not mean that we are saved discretely instantaneously and exclusively by it alone as a one time event.

You claim to rely on the bible–the bible says THROUGH faith.

We are gracefully saved by and THROUGH that faith that CONTINUES THROUGH God willed works unto death!

We aren’t branded as necessarily forever persevering and saved by the instanteous one time discete event of faith alone.

Faith alone as a discrete event does not allow for THROUGH!

The only time the bible uses faith and alone together as “faith alone” is in James 2:24 where it says we aren’t saved by “faith alone”.

The bible does not lie–if it says we aren’t saved by “faith alone” then what it says is true.

We can be saved BY faith–that does not mean faith is exclusively alone.

How can THROUGHNESS be exclusively alone?

If you say we aren’t saved by works I can buy that–that’s what the bible says. If you say that we aren’t saved by works of the law–I can buy that–that’s what the bible says.

Just don’t tell me that God willed works that faith CONTINUES THROUGH are the same thing as man initiated works or works of the law that do not save.

And Paul is correct–we can’t boast of even performing God willed works–we can’t do God willed works without God’s grace.

But we do have freedom of will NOT to do God willed works–when we refuse to do a God willed work we mortally sin.

And how do we refuse to not do a work that God wants us to do?–by posing an impediment to God’s grace. Die in a state of mortal sin and Hell is the result and it doesn’t matter what faith we at any time had before or how it continued through anything that God wanted us to do prior to committing that mortal sin.

When a person dies in a state of mortal sin their state is fixed for all eternity.

Salvation requires faith CONTINUING THROUGH!

When that faith continues through it is called a state of grace. Die in that state and your final destination is heaven.

You might ask–what can a person DO to make it to heaven? The answer is nothing of their own initiation.

The POSITIVE NOTHING ZERO that they can do is not to resist God’s grace.

God does all the saving—the salvation comes THROUGH FAITH continuing God willed works that God uses to perfect us and make us Holy.

All we have to do in salvation is stay out of God’s way as He works grace!

It is indeed a paradox but true–God saves us–God provides us grace and faith–yet God can do all of that while still letting us cooperate with Him in the exercise of our wills.

Father Most said it best–man cannot choose for or against God–man can only choose against God or do that great positive ZERO NOTHING of not resisting God.

No Catholic believes that any works will get them to Heaven.

But every Catholic believes that we get to Heaven by not resisting God and allowing His grace and the gift of faith to not be interrupted by mortal sin so that grace can CONTINUE THOUGH the things that God wants to perfect us.

Faith versus work is a false dichotomie.

Faith and works is incorrect, too.

Faith continuing through God willed works is true!

And that faith will “Automatically” do that if we don’t choose against God.

But that’s not the same as saying that faith NECESSARILY always takes that course.

It can be interrupted.

That doesn’t mean it wasn’t at one point real.

See God loves us so much that He doesn’t demand His own way–He lets us have free will even after initial faith.

If we do nothing in a sense that faith will CONTINUE THROUGH and God will do all the saving and perfecting of us.

But faith isn’t a branding like some do to cattle that cannot be derailed by us exercising free will and committing mortal sin.

If we do that–yes we are still marked as belonging to God but in that case the devil hasn’t snatched us from God’s flock–we have CHOSEN to leave the herd and yes God does allow us to do that.

Once saved always saved could only be true if we stayed out of God’s way all the way until death and allowed His grace and faith that He has given us to CONTINUE THROUGH.

If we mortally sin we must be reconciled to God and rejoin the herd! If we don’t we go to Hell and yes in Hell that mark of initial faith and baptism and the mark of confirmation will be on us while we spend eternity in Hell!

Mortal sin equals “Dead Faith”–it is dead because it hasn’t continued through.

If faith continues THROUGH then we are in a state of grace and our final destintation is heaven.

Some Protestants who don’t believe in once saved always saved do believe we can fall away through apostasy–but say a person who has true faith and committs a mortal sin and dies before repenting–what happens to that person?

The fall away protestants don’t have an answer. The OSAS crowd says either don’t worry–if you ONCE and DISCRETELY had faith that you’ll be saved OR you never had true faith to begin with.

I’m sure the devil is happy with both of those answers.

The Catholic Church does have the answer–die in a state of mortal sin and you go to Hell–die in a state of grace and you go to Heaven–VENIALLY sin and die in a state of grace and you eventually get to Heaven after being perfected in Purgatory.

All of those answers don’t conflict with being saved BY or THROUGH faith that God gives us.

“THROUGH FAITH” isn’t the either/or false dichotomie of faith versus works which the devil wants people to believe so they won’t worry about salvation if they mortally sin.

The devil got Martin Luther and the Protestants to believe and spread that lie.

I’ll leave you with this Ralphy since you’re a fan of St. Paul–“Work out your salvation with fear and trembling”! If the bible says it and if the bible says that we’re not saved by “Faith alone” then you must admit that the bible is true!

 

[cazayoux]

#6 Cath.statement: Justification is lost through mortal sin.God says: Justification cannot be lost. Those whom God justifies will be saved from the wrath of God Rom5:8,9. Ralph

I love it when scripture I just read shows itself to be relevant to a conversation.
Read this this morning.

Heb 3:14
For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end.

First, we need to see the word ‘if’ that is here.
There is a condition which WE must fulfill to be able to share in Christ.

Second, we need to note the duration of that conditional: ‘to the end’.
This does not sound like a ticket was punched the day you become a Christian and there is nothing more that you need to worry about.

We see in scripture that salvation is guaranteed ‘if’ …
The ‘…’ is filled in with many different things that we must DO.

Cheers, brother!

michel

 

[Christian7801]

Where is that in the Bible? I’d love to see the reference as well as your interpretation of what it means. Thanks

Since that is one of the qualification of an elder; then I think it is pretty safe to conclude that those appointed as elder, which are mature Christians, are able…wouldn’t you agree?

 

[Christian7801]

Can you show us a scripture that says specifically that? I don’t think so.

You’ve been answered. You just don’t like what you’ve heard.

You asked where the traditions could be found and where interpretations of given passages could be found and I showed you.

Catholics don’t function like the majority of n-Cs do with minimal “statements of faith” or whatever they are called where they give their list of doctrines and supposed scriptural support for them. We actually have serious teaching documents like the catechism that actually require a person to bring a brain and a Bible and to actually study.

You make statements and act as if no one has answered you when in fact we have given you thorough answers and you have not been willing to make the effort to do your part and then exit with some remarks that we could not do so.

Be honest. If you want the facts then you read what we have offered and research the sources that we give you with an open mind and objective search for truth wherever it leads. If not, then all you have done is allow us to make our case, refute yours, and every honest lurker reading the thread benefits from it.

People like you are one of the reasons that Catholic Answers exists.

Thorough answers; like I said and now repeat again, no one has answered the question in the context of the question, which is why I cited the passages from Paul in order to give clarification, but to say you answered is an answer? I retract the question a second time for your sake and mine.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I love it when scripture I just read shows itself to be relevant to a conversation.
Read this this morning.

Heb 3:14
For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end.

First, we need to see the word ‘if’ that is here.
There is a condition which WE must fulfill to be able to share in Christ.

Second, we need to note the duration of that conditional: ‘to the end’.
This does not sound like a ticket was punched the day you become a Christian and there is nothing more that you need to worry about.

We see in scripture that salvation is guaranteed ‘if’ …
The ‘…’ is filled in with many different things that we must DO.

Cheers, brother!

michel

Thanks for sharing that michel - I have read that passage many times but just glossed over it. This is first time I actually “saw it”. Wow - that’s a slam dunk.

If anyone rejects that then it only proves they are “cherry picking” the scriptural verses that THEY want to see or more accurately what “Satan wants them to see” so they may take refuge in the false assurances that they are saved even if in grave sin.

“By faith alone” is snake oil - a cheap salvation that has no provisions for being “holy as your heavenly father is holy”. This sola error ALL stems from a very gravely deficient justification “theory” of the Reformers that essentially says we are all doomed to be sinners so just give up even trying to pretend we can resist sin and accept that Christ’s atonement “covers your ugly sins” with his blood. HOG WASH! Christ’s blood, if properly claimed, CLEANS us from our sins and REMOVES our sins. But we MUST still strive to remain CLEAN and PURE and “be holy as your father is holy”. This is why sacramental confession is absolutely so critical to EVERY MAN’s salvation since few of us even when cooperating with grace are so careful that we don’t step into the muck now and then and succumb to sin. One does not access Christ’s atonement unless ONE OBEYS Him in how to access it. That is through the apostolic authority to loose and bind sins. It is arrogant for anyone to think they are forgiven by “asking” God for forgivness and then not letting God tell them “I absolve you of your sins”. Presumption of mercy and forgivness is very sinful in itself.

Protestants have it correct that man is very prone to sin - but they have it wrong in thinking that with God’s grace we can’t overcome it and can be forgiven of sin (in the covered over sense) through simple faith. REPENTANCE and SACRAMENTAL CONFESSION IS A MUST FOR ALL GRAVE SIN.

James

 

[Christian7801]

I am assuming that you believe you are a mature Christian. Would you say these following people who had a large following are also mature Christians?

Jimmy Baaker & Tammy Faye,
Jim Jones
David Koresh
Jimmy Swaggart
Ted Haggard

Who decides who to believe and follow?
Does getting a mail order divinity degree from an online college qualify somone to open a church and start “saving people”? Who accredits these colleges? It’s certainly not God so it must be man.

James

That is a laughable analogy IMO and child like. I suppose you consider yourself a mature Christian? Why? The argument in the last paragraph is circular reasoning. You could apply that to everyone and therefore everyone is disqualified.

 

[tmac1956]

snip…
So…you want answers? There ya go. Now you be honest and do your part. You’re in for the Bible study of your life.

Amen to that!

 

[Christian7801]

Amen to that!

You obviously havn’t read the dialogue of the thread; otherwise you would have to drawl a very different conclusion just by applying some common sense and a tiny bit of logic…AMEN to that!

 

[CentralFLJames]

Christian7801:

(Edited)

I don’t know what happned to your post but I wanted to reply to it Christian7801.

Catholics have a divine accreditation that stems from real divine apostolic authority. This is the crux of the problem for Protestants – utterly defunct and bogus authority. No Protestant minister, or preacher or pastor etc. has one iota of real and legitimate authority given by God to preach. Whereas EVERY Catholic deacon, priest and bishop is HAND SELECTED and APPROVED by a prior apostolic authority who was himself given that authority by someone in the apostolic succession WHO ACTUALLY KNEW AN APOSTLE OR CHRIST HIMSELF!

*John 20:22
And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.” *

No one can hijack ecclesial authority. It is GOD GIVEN. A physical 'laying on of hands" and apostolic blessing through a special priestly rite is required to receive the sacred anointing to teach and effect the sacraments (deacons can only preach and bless). This is assurances that no man will ever steal God’s Church by simply putting up a sheep-skin obtained through the simony of “higher education” and claiming himself his own authority or vicariously through some another ordinary man.

Jesus warned us about false shepherds and teachers:

*John 10:12
He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. *

James

 

[mlchance]

The argument in the last paragraph is circular reasoning.

You mean circular like this?:

Since that is one of the qualification of an elder; then I think it is pretty safe to conclude that those appointed as elder, which are mature Christians, are able…wouldn’t you agree?

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Tomster]

A mature Christian who is able to discern the word of God.

Is there a point of view which, though accidentally modified according to the limitations of the individual intelligence, essentially transcends the ebb and flow of human opinion? The Catholic Church has always maintained that there is, and, moreover, that she has been divinely constituted for the express purpose of giving expression to it. Of those who have been taught to regard such a claim as unwarranted presumption, we ask only that they should consider whether or not it be consistent with the deliverances of Scripture itself and the earliest Christian Tradition. Further, they should reflrect whether it was not antecedently probable that Christ, who on any showing attached vital importance to his teaching about himself, should have taken precautions to safeguard it from error; whether finally, the scepticism and unbelief in the modern world, which have been fostered rather than dispelled, do not imperatively demand some such authoritative guidance if complete shipwreck is not to be made of traditional Christianity.

The “faith that was handed down, once for all, to the saints” (Jude 3) was never, prior to the 16th century, conceived of as a mass of heterogeneous beliefs from which men could pick and choose according to their inclinations. It was an authoritative pattern of teaching, “a form of doctrine,” to which, as St. Paul reminded to the Romans, the faithful had submitted themselves in obedience “from the heart” (Romans 6:17). The earliest believers were required, not to receive such of the Christian message as seemed to them most reasonable, but to concur in the “sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ” and in “that doctrine which is according to godliness” (1 Timothy 6:3). Nothing could be more explicit than the following declaration in the second Johannine Epistle: “Whosoever revolts and continues not in the doctrine of Christ has not God” (2 John 9). There is, from the beginning, a definite “confession” of faith to which we must “hold fast” (Hebrews 4:14). That this early apostolic confession was believed to be backed and supported by God’s truth is clear from the words of our Lord himself: “I have still many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he shall guide you into all truth” (John 16:12-13). It is in the light of this assurance that we find the primitive Christian community speaking of itself as “the church (not the Bible) of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth” (1 Timothy 3:15).

We know from the New Testament itself that Jesus gave further teaching to his disciples over and above what has come down to us from the four Gospels. St. Paul, when at Ephesus, recalls a well remembered saying not recorded by the evangelists: " . . . the words spoken by the Lord Jesus himself, It is more blessed to give than to receive" (Acts 20:35). We have evidence also of additional instruction on the kingdom of God between the Resurrection and Ascension (Acts 1:3). But at no point in our records do we find the conception of a definite doctrinal Tradition, a formulated teaching transmitted from the apostles, to be lacking.